Martial arts vs street fighter....
08 July 2003, 04:38 PM
#1
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This arguement came up in the bullying thread.
Rather than dilute that thread, why not continue the debate here...
So who wins?
It's not that simple is it? Just because you do martial arts, doesn't mean you are suddenly limited to fighting effectively against those that conform to particular stances, techniques etc
I trained for a while under the instuction of Hamish Adam, the Scottish karate champion. He was as hard as nails.
He'd occasionally add some interesting "if you're in a street fight and the guy tries this..." elements to his lessons.
Was a long time ago though, and sadly I never stuck with it..
Rather than dilute that thread, why not continue the debate here...
So who wins?
It's not that simple is it? Just because you do martial arts, doesn't mean you are suddenly limited to fighting effectively against those that conform to particular stances, techniques etc
I trained for a while under the instuction of Hamish Adam, the Scottish karate champion. He was as hard as nails.
He'd occasionally add some interesting "if you're in a street fight and the guy tries this..." elements to his lessons.
Was a long time ago though, and sadly I never stuck with it..
08 July 2003, 04:48 PM
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Who wins?
How long is a piece of string.
There are so many factors, it would take pages and pages to consider them all.
In my opinion, the person who gets the first strike wins, and if he doesnt win, then he runs.
So basically if you give someone a clean strike, and he stands there frowning...........run.
Yoza (100m sprint champion 1988)
How long is a piece of string.
There are so many factors, it would take pages and pages to consider them all.
In my opinion, the person who gets the first strike wins, and if he doesnt win, then he runs.
So basically if you give someone a clean strike, and he stands there frowning...........run.
Yoza (100m sprint champion 1988)
08 July 2003, 04:49 PM
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An old Tae Kwon Do instructor also introduced those elements, even as far as one day asking us to turn up in clothes we'd wear in a pub or club, so as the illustrate the constraint normal clothes put on martial arts moves.
08 July 2003, 04:59 PM
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Martial arts vs street fighter.... Thats a very good question 
I do Jeet Kune Do (Bruce Less martial art) which is a structured way of street fighting.
I think a Martial artist will have an advantage with the hours and hours of training but when it comes down to survive on the street its different. when we (every martial artist) train, we train with rules and control, that means we fight the way we train. If you practise fighting on the floor for hours on hours you will end up fighting on the floor in the streets and thats the last place to be on the streets.
a martial artist will be thinking about what openings, timing defending, hiting etc etc but a street fight will have a diffrent mentality. he will be thinking about killing you and thats it. a street fightier will not be thinking about punching you he'll be looking for a BLUNT object to stab you.
There is not correct answer to Martial arts vs street fighter....
Ray
I do Jeet Kune Do (Bruce Less martial art) which is a structured way of street fighting.
I think a Martial artist will have an advantage with the hours and hours of training but when it comes down to survive on the street its different. when we (every martial artist) train, we train with rules and control, that means we fight the way we train. If you practise fighting on the floor for hours on hours you will end up fighting on the floor in the streets and thats the last place to be on the streets.
a martial artist will be thinking about what openings, timing defending, hiting etc etc but a street fight will have a diffrent mentality. he will be thinking about killing you and thats it. a street fightier will not be thinking about punching you he'll be looking for a BLUNT object to stab you.
There is not correct answer to Martial arts vs street fighter....
Ray
08 July 2003, 05:11 PM
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Whats a street fighter exactly?
Do you mean the local hard bloke who has never been to a fighting/selfdefence class in his life, yet finds himself fighting/brawling most weekends.
Does he fight or does he brawl, does he have the advantage because he is mental?
Do you mean the local hard bloke who has never been to a fighting/selfdefence class in his life, yet finds himself fighting/brawling most weekends.
Does he fight or does he brawl, does he have the advantage because he is mental?
08 July 2003, 05:12 PM
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Depends on the martial artist or the streetfighter. The one with more experience would win. But if they're both inexperienced, its the stronger one that would win.
08 July 2003, 05:15 PM
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You say that but if you watch the most extreme form of competitive hand to hand combat, Ultimate Fighting Championship, then its easy to see how even a small sub 6ft bloke can take out some 18 stone skinhead with martial arts skill. You only have to watch that small chap called Gracie who does Jiu Jitsu to see how effective it is in what is pretty much legalised streetfighting. I think he won it 4 years on the trot against boxers, sumo wrestlers, kunf fu, karate, judo, kick boxers etc.
Then again if you want to see proper fighting, check this vid out:
http://www.p1f.co.uk/kaye2.wmv
Simon.
[Edited by P1Fanatic - 7/9/2003 1:03:59 AM]
Then again if you want to see proper fighting, check this vid out:
http://www.p1f.co.uk/kaye2.wmv
Simon.
[Edited by P1Fanatic - 7/9/2003 1:03:59 AM]
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08 July 2003, 05:24 PM
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An experiment for all the Martial artista thats done weapons training...
Get a mate to hold a marker pen like he is holding a knife, then get him to slash or stab you like he was trying to kill you. Now try using every blocking or dis-arming technique you know and be very surprized about the out come... If your mate was really trying it will looking like he was drawing a picture on you.
Sorry to my fellow martial artist. im not p1ssing on us just saying what I have seen and understand. i love all forms of martail arts and try to learn a little about every style. no hard feelings.
Ray
Get a mate to hold a marker pen like he is holding a knife, then get him to slash or stab you like he was trying to kill you. Now try using every blocking or dis-arming technique you know and be very surprized about the out come... If your mate was really trying it will looking like he was drawing a picture on you.
Sorry to my fellow martial artist. im not p1ssing on us just saying what I have seen and understand. i love all forms of martail arts and try to learn a little about every style. no hard feelings.
Ray
08 July 2003, 05:29 PM
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rogp
I study JKD in Coventry under Richard Green (Impact Martial Arts)
It was headed by Dave Carnell but now its gone over to the USA and its headed by Cass Magda.
Do you do JKD and who with?
Ray
I study JKD in Coventry under Richard Green (Impact Martial Arts)
It was headed by Dave Carnell but now its gone over to the USA and its headed by Cass Magda.
Do you do JKD and who with?
Ray
08 July 2003, 05:30 PM
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LOL - yes I know "Who wins" was a dumb-*** question (I'm full of 'em ) with no correct answer! - Of course it depends on several factors, including experience, strength, skills, mentality etc etc
Just stirring up a debate - the answers are quite interesting!
) with no correct answer! - Of course it depends on several factors, including experience, strength, skills, mentality etc etcJust stirring up a debate - the answers are quite interesting!
08 July 2003, 05:59 PM
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Hmmmm - I've studied wing chun for a while and have just changed styles to Impact Wing Chunt(www.impacttrainingandfitness.co.uk.
The style lays all of its foundations with wing chun but is very 'fighting' orientated.
Obviously things are different with weapons, and my old instructor always said if you come up against someone with a weapon, run as fast as you can! Cause it isn't worth it. If thats not an option then get a weapon yourself.
Ben
The style lays all of its foundations with wing chun but is very 'fighting' orientated.
Obviously things are different with weapons, and my old instructor always said if you come up against someone with a weapon, run as fast as you can! Cause it isn't worth it. If thats not an option then get a weapon yourself.
Ben
08 July 2003, 06:53 PM
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I think you'd have to have totally mad skills to effectively deal with someone who draws a blade on you........the only rule here is run away.....or pull a gun
In answer to the question:
It depends on all the variables! A street fighter with no training other than picking fights weekend after weekend would be a very hard opponent to a well trained martial arts guy that doesn't fight other than sparring with his peers.
I find a lot of trouble in the street is caused by neds that have been in a few fights with a million of their mates but not in a one on one very often. Frankly drunken neds are laughable
Recently I saw a fight up town where one guy was fighting about 5 neds and they were pathetic - they couldn't fight for **** and there was 5 on 1 
The one beefy guy they were fighting held his own so a well trained and experience black belt would have pasted all 5 no problem (there drunkeness was a contributing factor). But then, that same well trained individual could take a thumping from a massive nutcase that fights all the time. You have to remember that without being aware of it, every time these nutters get in a fight (usually every weekend ) they learn, adapt and refine their personal technique. Its fair to say they sort of develop their own style and train themself through trial and error.
As I said in the other thread it all comes down to application and even the most applied streetfighter will not stand a chance against someone that is applied to a martial art - IMHO. These skills were developed over long periods of time and are in most cases very effective. Its not enough to turn up to class, jump around making noises for a while and leave with a black belt and think you are hard.........but.....if you turn up and push yourself (as with anything in life) then you will learn techniques and will learn how to use them. Moreover, your body will learn the motions of fighting. Most of the black-belts in my class can kick to head hight without sweat and that is a useful tallent to have given that few people expect a kick. We are also tought all sorts of techniques for all sorts of situations which helps. I think some martial arts only focus on certain things - is TKD not largely kick based?
As an amusing tale one of the Kuk Sool Masters was on one of the these American Police chase videos (the sort shown on sky 1): I've not seen it but apparantly he (a cop) confronts a massive guy thats been beating his girlfriend and the guy turns on the cop. Those that have seen the footage say he hits him with one chop to a pressure point up by the temple and the boy is seen staggering around for 30s totally unaware of where he is and whats going on Now that's impressive Got to love pressure point strikes, I had one done on my bicept the other day by a blue-belt and my legs gave way Of course I'd love to see him hit it when I'm not holding my arm out in front of him
In answer to the question:
It depends on all the variables! A street fighter with no training other than picking fights weekend after weekend would be a very hard opponent to a well trained martial arts guy that doesn't fight other than sparring with his peers.
I find a lot of trouble in the street is caused by neds that have been in a few fights with a million of their mates but not in a one on one very often. Frankly drunken neds are laughable
Recently I saw a fight up town where one guy was fighting about 5 neds and they were pathetic - they couldn't fight for **** and there was 5 on 1 The one beefy guy they were fighting held his own so a well trained and experience black belt would have pasted all 5 no problem (there drunkeness was a contributing factor). But then, that same well trained individual could take a thumping from a massive nutcase that fights all the time. You have to remember that without being aware of it, every time these nutters get in a fight (usually every weekend ) they learn, adapt and refine their personal technique. Its fair to say they sort of develop their own style and train themself through trial and error.As I said in the other thread it all comes down to application and even the most applied streetfighter will not stand a chance against someone that is applied to a martial art - IMHO. These skills were developed over long periods of time and are in most cases very effective. Its not enough to turn up to class, jump around making noises for a while and leave with a black belt and think you are hard.........but.....if you turn up and push yourself (as with anything in life) then you will learn techniques and will learn how to use them. Moreover, your body will learn the motions of fighting. Most of the black-belts in my class can kick to head hight without sweat and that is a useful tallent to have given that few people expect a kick. We are also tought all sorts of techniques for all sorts of situations which helps. I think some martial arts only focus on certain things - is TKD not largely kick based?
As an amusing tale one of the Kuk Sool Masters was on one of the these American Police chase videos (the sort shown on sky 1): I've not seen it but apparantly he (a cop) confronts a massive guy thats been beating his girlfriend and the guy turns on the cop. Those that have seen the footage say he hits him with one chop to a pressure point up by the temple and the boy is seen staggering around for 30s totally unaware of where he is and whats going on
Now that's impressive Got to love pressure point strikes, I had one done on my bicept the other day by a blue-belt and my legs gave way Of course I'd love to see him hit it when I'm not holding my arm out in front of him
08 July 2003, 07:12 PM
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Some very good points made by people. As said b4 it depend on the what you call a martial artist and street fighter.
I remember when I first started martial arts. After a few months I thought I was really hard then a year after I started I knew I was not and still dont think I am.
But a martial artist can take on the average person without a problem.
A martial arts will think about when to stop in a street fight but a street fighter will not. so the end resalt will be different. a martial artist will give the person a little kicking so people will think his not that hard, but a street fighter will not think about when to stop, so he looks harder. (well that sounds right in my head. Im got to good with words)
Ray
I remember when I first started martial arts. After a few months I thought I was really hard then a year after I started I knew I was not and still dont think I am.
But a martial artist can take on the average person without a problem.
A martial arts will think about when to stop in a street fight but a street fighter will not. so the end resalt will be different. a martial artist will give the person a little kicking so people will think his not that hard, but a street fighter will not think about when to stop, so he looks harder. (well that sounds right in my head. Im got to good with words
)Ray
08 July 2003, 10:17 PM
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Back, phew! Tired now
As someone said, more often than not street fights involve some poor soul being pounded by 5-10 neds that ultimately want a situation where that poor soul is unconcious on the ground and they can take turns to jump on his head
As someone said, more often than not street fights involve some poor soul being pounded by 5-10 neds that ultimately want a situation where that poor soul is unconcious on the ground and they can take turns to jump on his head
08 July 2003, 11:13 PM
#22
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Well, I was the one to raise this point on the other thread so I had better comment!!
I have seen drunks fighting in the street, its a pathetic brawl and my granny could take those out (if she was alive, that is - but you get my point!)
What I am talking about is the local nutcase who fights EVERY weekend, because he LOVES it, he LOVES pain and the rush is like a drug for him ....................... some gimpy IT squirt with a black belt and a Kung-foody-foo technique is going to look REALLY stupid with his belt shoved right up his 4rse!!
Bouncers can see the mad steel look in these thugs eyes, its not until you have seen that blank stare that you really realise that NOTHING short of killing him will stop him fighting!! They don't look like BIG lads and normally are not - but they are MAD with NOTHING to lose!!
We, on the other hand, martial arts trained or not, have families, jobs, money, cars, things to do, things to see, a life to live - the Street Fighter has NOTHING!!
The street fighter wins EVERYTIME!! While you are thinking about what move, block or some such bollocks - he has slashed your stomach and wrapped your innards around your head whilst ripping your bollocks off and shoved them in your mouth!!
Its bl00dy dangerous to think there are people out there walking around with a black belt and being a desperate dan or whatever nonsense they have been awarded - imagining that they can take out the local street fighters!!
I, personally, run like hell ........... I can choose my time - rolling on the tarmac will just get me in hospital. I have brains, I can use them and extract my revenge in my time - its ALL we have over the street fighter!
Pete
I have seen drunks fighting in the street, its a pathetic brawl and my granny could take those out (if she was alive, that is - but you get my point!)
What I am talking about is the local nutcase who fights EVERY weekend, because he LOVES it, he LOVES pain and the rush is like a drug for him ....................... some gimpy IT squirt with a black belt and a Kung-foody-foo technique is going to look REALLY stupid with his belt shoved right up his 4rse!!
Bouncers can see the mad steel look in these thugs eyes, its not until you have seen that blank stare that you really realise that NOTHING short of killing him will stop him fighting!! They don't look like BIG lads and normally are not - but they are MAD with NOTHING to lose!!
We, on the other hand, martial arts trained or not, have families, jobs, money, cars, things to do, things to see, a life to live - the Street Fighter has NOTHING!!
The street fighter wins EVERYTIME!! While you are thinking about what move, block or some such bollocks - he has slashed your stomach and wrapped your innards around your head whilst ripping your bollocks off and shoved them in your mouth!!
Its bl00dy dangerous to think there are people out there walking around with a black belt and being a desperate dan or whatever nonsense they have been awarded - imagining that they can take out the local street fighters!!
I, personally, run like hell ........... I can choose my time - rolling on the tarmac will just get me in hospital. I have brains, I can use them and extract my revenge in my time - its ALL we have over the street fighter!
Pete
08 July 2003, 11:21 PM
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Very fair point pete and very true in my opinion.....but:
There's always a but
Not all black belts are IT geeks looking for a fancy belt. I don't want my black belt unless I've earned it. I don't want to wear a belt and think it means something. I want to wear it and know that it means something. As I said in one of the many other threads on this topic the real danger is the thug come good guy! My instructor is such a person, you can see the streetfighter in him but now he's got mad skills to match and thats frankly frightening! He got into a situation with 10+ neds and did not back down!! That's pretty crazy Unsuprisingly, after he'd beaten crap out of two of them the others thought better of it!! He's pretty unique though but there are others in class that show a similar mix of skill and hardness
There's always a but
Not all black belts are IT geeks looking for a fancy belt. I don't want my black belt unless I've earned it. I don't want to wear a belt and think it means something. I want to wear it and know that it means something. As I said in one of the many other threads on this topic
the real danger is the thug come good guy! My instructor is such a person, you can see the streetfighter in him but now he's got mad skills to match and thats frankly frightening! He got into a situation with 10+ neds and did not back down!! That's pretty crazy Unsuprisingly, after he'd beaten crap out of two of them the others thought better of it!! He's pretty unique though but there are others in class that show a similar mix of skill and hardness
08 July 2003, 11:49 PM
#27
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The Zimmer Frame was a trembling!!
Fighting in the trenches made you tough!! The training we had was in that ancient art Who-Flung-Bomb-O !!!
I have a good friend who frequents the gym with me and he is built like the good old brick **** house!! He is 6'6" tall and about as wide - he does kick-boxing and I have NEVER seen a bigger, tougher looking specimen ............. I have been out on pub crawls with him and seen him ask a gent who pi55ed down his leg in the loo to lick it all off!! Amazingly, he is driven by a burning desire not to be bullied HE would NOT take on a 5' street fighter!!
Pete
Fighting in the trenches made you tough!! The training we had was in that ancient art Who-Flung-Bomb-O !!!
I have a good friend who frequents the gym with me and he is built like the good old brick **** house!! He is 6'6" tall and about as wide - he does kick-boxing and I have NEVER seen a bigger, tougher looking specimen ............. I have been out on pub crawls with him and seen him ask a gent who pi55ed down his leg in the loo to lick it all off!! Amazingly, he is driven by a burning desire not to be bullied
HE would NOT take on a 5' street fighter!!Pete
09 July 2003, 12:20 AM
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Hey Rich, Kenny. So which tactics are best for walking down Leith Walk or Lothian Road after a few beers?
Are weapons allowed? I'm thinking a Barrs Glass Irn Bru bottle will do the job
Are weapons allowed?
I'm thinking a Barrs Glass Irn Bru bottle will do the job
09 July 2003, 12:22 AM
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rogp
Its gonna cost with that guy. I know of him but dont know that much about him just know he charges alot.
He is known within the JKD industry.
There are two top guys in the UK one is Dave Carnell (stoke-on-trent) and the other is Rick Young(scotland)
Dave Carnell (named best instructor by combat mag) is hard to get with he's impressed the he11 out of the first generation of Bruce Lee's students and made a real good name for himself, He is now teaching Americans over in the US and making a good name for himself.
Check this out for more info http://www.magdainstitute.com or mail me. I'll try and help anyway i can. let me know how it goes.
Ray
Its gonna cost with that guy. I know of him but dont know that much about him just know he charges alot.
He is known within the JKD industry.
There are two top guys in the UK one is Dave Carnell (stoke-on-trent) and the other is Rick Young(scotland)
Dave Carnell (named best instructor by combat mag) is hard to get with he's impressed the he11 out of the first generation of Bruce Lee's students and made a real good name for himself, He is now teaching Americans over in the US and making a good name for himself.
Check this out for more info http://www.magdainstitute.com or mail me. I'll try and help anyway i can. let me know how it goes.
Ray