How Many Angels ...
18 March 2003, 11:25 AM
#1
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... can dance on the head of a pin?
that's the position of debate now regarding iraq.
the key decision - a final ultimatum before fighting starts - has been made. brits, americans, australians and kurds are going to war with saddam, supported behind the lines by the turks, kuwaitis and qataris. supported politically by the majority of vast majority of NATO states in the face of insoluble UN division.
no amount of argument - specious or otherwise - can change that.
the only things that matter now, in the light of the situation, are as follows:
1. the rapid military overthrow of saddam by all means necessary, with minimised combatant casualties, civilian casualties and collateral damage.
2. the immediate armed quarantine and protection of the oil well-heads to prevent their destruction and the severe ecological impacts that would otherwise follow.
3. the location and destruction of all non-conventional weaponry and means of production in the iraqi arsenal.
4. the lifting of sanctions to rebuild humanitarian services and restore key social and industrial infrastructure.
5. the imprisonment and fair trial - by iraqis - of senior ba'ath party officials guilty of state murder and other human rights abuses.
6. the political stabilisation and de-saddamification of iraq under a one-nation caretaker administration that unites kurd, sunnii, shi'ite and the political parties in exile.
7. the total dismantling of the ba'ath party machine in iraq.
8. the preservation of iraqi national borders and oil reserves.
9. the development and introduction of a unified, democratic system for the country that unites the tribes as well as exiled movements.
10. the investment of an equal diplomatic effort in delivering an achievable peace settlement between palestine and israel.
that's the position of debate now regarding iraq.
the key decision - a final ultimatum before fighting starts - has been made. brits, americans, australians and kurds are going to war with saddam, supported behind the lines by the turks, kuwaitis and qataris. supported politically by the majority of vast majority of NATO states in the face of insoluble UN division.
no amount of argument - specious or otherwise - can change that.
the only things that matter now, in the light of the situation, are as follows:
1. the rapid military overthrow of saddam by all means necessary, with minimised combatant casualties, civilian casualties and collateral damage.
2. the immediate armed quarantine and protection of the oil well-heads to prevent their destruction and the severe ecological impacts that would otherwise follow.
3. the location and destruction of all non-conventional weaponry and means of production in the iraqi arsenal.
4. the lifting of sanctions to rebuild humanitarian services and restore key social and industrial infrastructure.
5. the imprisonment and fair trial - by iraqis - of senior ba'ath party officials guilty of state murder and other human rights abuses.
6. the political stabilisation and de-saddamification of iraq under a one-nation caretaker administration that unites kurd, sunnii, shi'ite and the political parties in exile.
7. the total dismantling of the ba'ath party machine in iraq.
8. the preservation of iraqi national borders and oil reserves.
9. the development and introduction of a unified, democratic system for the country that unites the tribes as well as exiled movements.
10. the investment of an equal diplomatic effort in delivering an achievable peace settlement between palestine and israel.
18 March 2003, 12:49 PM
#2
<< the immediate armed quarantine and protection of the oil well-heads to prevent their destruction "and the severe ecological impacts that would otherwise follow">>.
LOL, and do you REALLY believe the bit about ecological impact?
Or are you, like Bliar and the US, merely worried about getting your hands on the oil, even if YOU will have to pay for it. They won't, they're gonna take it!!
Alcazar
<<the preservation of iraqi national borders and *oil reserves *, (for us and US!!!)
LOL, and do you REALLY believe the bit about ecological impact?
Or are you, like Bliar and the US, merely worried about getting your hands on the oil, even if YOU will have to pay for it. They won't, they're gonna take it!!
Alcazar
<<the preservation of iraqi national borders and *oil reserves *, (for us and US!!!)
18 March 2003, 01:02 PM
#3
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What you mean is remove the current government and replace it with one the west decides is suitable for their own ends force them to accept all the kurds including those in Turkey (the only reason the Turks are helping the USA at all) and place big army bases in the middle east to continue Americas expansionist policies.
18 March 2003, 01:47 PM
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alcazar
if the iraqi army is allowed space and time to blow the well-heads there will be severe environmental impact. that is not a subjective observation, it is a fact. kirkuk, for instance, is not a desert landscape. it is a verdant, major agricultural centre for cereal, olives, fuit and cotton: if the wells are set alight, the damage to the economy of NE iraq will be huge. the same goes for mosul. the victims of the environmental damage and loss of livelihood, as ever, will be kurdish iraqis.
imagine the world's largest oil tanker ablaze...remember the damage caused when the kuwaiti wells were blown in '91? the same applies here. only worse.
your knee-jerk and sadly ill-informed (in this case) reply does you a disservice.
lastly, the US will be spending more on this war than the value of iraq's entire oil production. as i have said before, they don't need to take it by force - it makes up just 5.7% of their oil imports. they can buy it all for less without firing a shot.
*
mr evolution
i'm not even going to dignify your comments with a reply.
*
i have simply highlighted the things that must be focused on and delivered against if we are to generate anything positive out of what has now become a sadly irrevocable situation.
if the iraqi army is allowed space and time to blow the well-heads there will be severe environmental impact. that is not a subjective observation, it is a fact. kirkuk, for instance, is not a desert landscape. it is a verdant, major agricultural centre for cereal, olives, fuit and cotton: if the wells are set alight, the damage to the economy of NE iraq will be huge. the same goes for mosul. the victims of the environmental damage and loss of livelihood, as ever, will be kurdish iraqis.
imagine the world's largest oil tanker ablaze...remember the damage caused when the kuwaiti wells were blown in '91? the same applies here. only worse.
your knee-jerk and sadly ill-informed (in this case) reply does you a disservice.
lastly, the US will be spending more on this war than the value of iraq's entire oil production. as i have said before, they don't need to take it by force - it makes up just 5.7% of their oil imports. they can buy it all for less without firing a shot.
*
mr evolution
i'm not even going to dignify your comments with a reply.
*
i have simply highlighted the things that must be focused on and delivered against if we are to generate anything positive out of what has now become a sadly irrevocable situation.
18 March 2003, 05:07 PM
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The only reason the USA's oil exports from Iraq are low is because they can't afford the taxes to transport the oil through Turkish waters. Iraq's oil production capability is massive they just don't drill in two of the biggest oil fields in the world. The control of Iraq will in turn give USA better control of opec which will affect all oil prices even those form South America. With a friendly government in Iraq the USA will at last be able to get oil from the middle as they won't have to pay turkish shipping taxes. If you really think the USA won't install a friendly government in Iraq then look at their attempts to control governments in Cuba Vietnam and Korea as well as trying to put usa friendly popes in the vatican.
19 March 2003, 12:04 AM
#7
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As an aside, there was a comment on the radio this afternoon that the country of Bolivia has had 189 changes of government in 175 years of independence. The commentator wondered aloud how many of them had been destabilized deliberately by the CIA.
10. 'the investment of an equal diplomatic effort in delivering an achievable peace settlement between Palestine and Israel'
This is a pipe dream, the wounds in this region go back over 2000 years. The Israeli's will not & must not compromise their security, Jews have been persecuted for centuries by every culture under the sun. The Palestinians have proven untrustworthy at every step, as far as they are concerned increased freedoms mean only increased movement for the suicide bombing of women & children. Even the IRA at their lowest never deliberately target schoolbuses or hospitals.
10. 'the investment of an equal diplomatic effort in delivering an achievable peace settlement between Palestine and Israel'
This is a pipe dream, the wounds in this region go back over 2000 years. The Israeli's will not & must not compromise their security, Jews have been persecuted for centuries by every culture under the sun. The Palestinians have proven untrustworthy at every step, as far as they are concerned increased freedoms mean only increased movement for the suicide bombing of women & children. Even the IRA at their lowest never deliberately target schoolbuses or hospitals.
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19 March 2003, 11:29 AM
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chrispyduck
doesn't mean it can't ultimately be solved. but as long as hussein is around to fund directly the likes of hammas, then it won't get off the ground. chicken and egg. or duck and egg even.
doesn't mean it can't ultimately be solved. but as long as hussein is around to fund directly the likes of hammas, then it won't get off the ground. chicken and egg. or duck and egg even.
19 March 2003, 12:30 PM
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Its funny how people seem to forget that the Palestinians live under a brutal occupation and have had their homes taken away for the benefit of Jewish settlers and had their children and familys murderd by Israeli soldiers. To solve the Palestine situation tell the Israelis to go back to where they came from and return the Palestinians to their homes and land.
You can claim that you choose not to answer my posts but basically its because I'm right and you can't.
You can claim that you choose not to answer my posts but basically its because I'm right and you can't.
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