RB5#295

A few weeks ago we had an incident at work, the basic scenario as follows:

Bloke is leaving, organises a few pints and a curry for anyone who wants to turn up. 18 go in all (from a company of 30ish) including Sales director & wife and MD & wife (who is company secretary).

One of the young guys has one Stella too many and gets a bit obnoxious and at the end of the night there is a bit of pushing between him and the bloke who was leaving. It was split up by another colleague before punches were thrown and the only problem was a broken pair of specs belonging to the leaver.

Monday morning the young lad agrees to pay half the repair on the (already repaired once previously ) specs, but later that week he is called in for a disciplinary hearing where a statement that has been taken from the leaver (who was happy to sort it all out between the 2 of them) is read out. No statement is taken from the 'offender' or the one witness (none of these people are me BTW). Result is a final written warning because it was apparently a company do. Other than it was arranged by e-mail using the company server and all the invitees were employees I don't see that personally, but can anyone confirm the legal status?

Spool forward to last week and someone else is leaving. He sends an e-mail inviting everyone out and makes 2 digs at this previous one by saying that 'he doesn't want to waste time with a meal' and that he 'wants to point out that it is not an official company do'. MD sends a reply to all employees saying that, no matter where, when or who with, they reserve the right to apply disciplinary procedure to any employee if they hear of conduct they think warrants it. Can anyone fill me in on the legality of this approach?

TIA

Fen

MarkO

No idea of the legal standpoint, but this sounds like it has nowt to do with work.

RB5#295

That's how we all feel. The lad who got the warning has got another job now and resigned last week. I am pretty much convinced I want to do the same, but in the meantime I'd love to quote something official back at them to show them they can't do this sort of thing.

MarkO

I guess a lot of it depends on what your contract says. It then becomes an argument about whether it's a company 'do' or not. Having said that, some places will class any gathering of (say) 3 or more employees as 'representative of the company'.

Strikes me as ludicrously harsh when the two involved appear to have resolved it personally anyway.

SAMH

Well IMHO I think the company can discipline employees, especially at this sort of event, for bringing the company into disrepute. Even if this happens outwith the workplace (John Leslie anyone)

It will really depend on how long an employee has been with the company. If he has been with the company less than a year (used to be 2) then they can pretty much do what they like, unless race, sex or Health & Safety legislation is involved.

In this case, assuming the young lad has been with the company for more than a year, the company must followed the correct procedures for any formal disciplinery action, i.e. ensuring that the full details of the incident are investigated 'thoroughly', witnesses etc, and that they have accorded the young lad his full rights at the hearing, i.e. allowing him to be accompanied by another member of staff, union rep etc, in order to corroborate what is said at the hearing.

This is all based on my personal experience and should be taken as such. If I was the young lad I'd be either consulting with the union or my solicitor just in case as it does not sound like they have fully investigated the incident.

RB5#295

I think he has been there for around a year. He did have another employee with him, but he was not allowed to put his side of events. He was going to go to a solicitor, but in the end decided not to and has now found a better paid job closer to home. He is not a union member. The only witness was not asked for a statement nor to attend the hearing.

I think that the major difference with John Leslie is that he has been accused of something illegal, which is not the case here (and I fully appreciate that the company has rights to discipline / terminate employees who get themselves criminal records.

MarkO

The difference with Leslie and Deayton is that they have specific clauses in their contracts which give their companies complete rights to sack employees which they believe may be bringing the company into disrepute - regardless of whether the allegations are proven or not. It's a TV thing, really.

WillieF

My tip would be phone ACAS.

I always do before atking any action with any member of staff and I always recommend that should any staff have a query with anything I do they can call CAB, ACAS or their solicitor.

marty_t3

My sister had a similar experience (well, almost) in her last job.

She and a few work friends went out for a drink after work. It being a Friday they all ended up rather worse for wear and staggering towards the taxi rank at the end of the night. That's when they were spotted by another employee, who reported back to the boss on Monday. They were all called in to the office and told to cut back on thier drinking at the weekend as it could 'harm the company's reputation'.

My sis left that job 4 weeks later despite her boss virtually begging her not to leave... she made it quite clear to him when she handed in her notice that when she leaves work at the end of the day she is on her own time and will do what she pleases. I couldn't have agreed with her more.

RB5#295

Funny that, the lad in question has quit for exactly the same reason, it came as a shock to the directors and managers, and they are begging him to stay. As I said earlier it's closer to home and £6k more, so he's a GMF.

Fen

ScoobySnack

The bit about "contracts" and "company into disrepute" comes down to whether your actions could be seen to effect the company...

i.e. a simple case would be a delivery courier in his company attire has to present his company in a good light. If he acts wrongly i.e perhaps hits someone even if it was not his fault it could be disrepute. (Lets assume self defence doesn't come in to it )

The decision of disrepute will lie within your organisation usaully HR plus a director, but doesn't have to involve giving evidence... great eh!

I think your case seems to be a bit blurred so who knows.

J

SAMH

I think its illegal to assault a work collegue

Never stoped me thought, heh........

Brendan Hughes

All IMHO:

Ask them where they reserved that right. Tell them to point it out in the terms and conditions of employment. If they can, fair enough. They probably can't, so it would be an implied term.

The key word in UK law is "reasonable", so you can imply whatever would seem reasonable to both sides at the time of signing the contract. It would indeed be reasonable to ban bad behaviour while in the company uniform. It would be unreasonable to ban picking your nose while on the bog at home.

IMHO, it would be perfectly reasonable to ban anything that brings the company into disrepute, but NOT anything the MD sees fit. See the difference? If a bunch of folks go out and get razzed, but no-one knows whose company they work for, they can't be bringing the company into disrepute, even if the MD doesn't like them doing it.

But like Leslie and Deayton, as soon as they get caught and the newspapers publish who they work for, they DO bring the company into disrepute, and get shafted.

RB5#295

Thaat's how I see it. We don't wear uniform and nobody has heard of the company anyhow, so the only way the company is brought into direpute is if they make it be known that their employees are involved in whatever. I just don't like the idea that someone could be fired for falling out with their mates down the pub. If that's the case then what next? Me driving my own car t over the speed limit (particularly on the way to site)?

Fen

SAMH

Seeing as this episode has surprised you, ask to see your comp's policy on this sort of thing. If they haven't got one then they are making it all up as they go. I think it is something you should deffo sort out before the supposed 'festive' season tho

HF kids, but dont drink or eat curry's while in steady employment, Big Brother is watching like.....