carl

Because it's the sort of device that doesn't look like a bug? Unlike, say, a book which normally consists of some hardboard covers and paper pages (which would look suspicious if people discovered some fancy electronics in it), people expect mobile phones to be (a) small and (b) full of electronics. A mobile phone also has most of the components for a bug built-in (in fact they're a pre-requisite) -- those being a microphone and a transmitter. Even if you were to do an RF sweep for bugs, would you be surprised to find that the source of the transmission was a mobile phone? Perhaps less surprised than if the source was a book

If the question you're asking is "who would want to use a bug", I guess the answer is that most cases would fall either into the 'divorce case/cheating partner' category or the 'industrial espionage' category

[Edited by carl - 7/4/2002 11:23:15 PM]

sillysi

Has anyone heard of this? Is it possible without a modified phone?

1). Person A calls person B on their mobile.
2). Person A speaks to Person B and then hangs up.
3). Person B's phone is now working as a microphone and Person A can now hear everything Person B is saying even when Person B is not on the phone.

You can buy a modded phone that allows this @ Mobile Phone Bug but I have a friend who thinks it has been done to him without a modded phone.

Si.

JackClark

One thing that is possible and very easy is to set your phone to auto answer and silent ringtone. You can then leave it in a room and call it at will. Some phones will need fiddling to make them auto answer.

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

The only way this is possible is if both phones are on.
Ill not go into the hassles of telecommunications but you cannot do this with mobiles as the exchange cuts mobile calls off due to the availability of devices off basestations.
Landlines are a different matter though, if caller A (you) calls caller B (them) and caller B hangs phone up, if they then pickup the phone it is still connected as long as you dont put it down (doesnt work though switchboards etc, got to be a direct contact).
It does eventually time out though.

Tony

sillysi

I have done a bit more investigation and the chap who did the bugging tells it like this. He has aquired some very expensive kit which used to be used by a PI. He plugs his landline into it and then waits for someone to ring him from a mobile (he did not say anything about a landline). When the person ringing from the mobile hangs up he can then listen to anything going on near the mobile as it is working as a microphone even if they are not on a call. He can listen in at any time he wants as the kit remembers the last number called. We have checked the mobile and no calls were received at the time the conversation was being bugged so this rules out the auto-answer and mute ringtone method, also I know that the mobile in question has not been tampered with.

Si.

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

Si,
me thinks hes having you on
Basically the way that telephone exchanges work, this is impossible.
The exchange is the only thing that can connect you, even if you have the number it has to be routed before its connected and then this is charged to the person that calls.
When the phone is dorment (ie not making a call/receiving a call) the only signals it receives are the ones from the base stations showing things like signal strength and the fact that its also connected to the network.
Also you have to be pretty good to get passed the encryption that mobile phones use, ie you cant listen into them basically, this is one of the reasons that they have such a fuss about how heavy the encryption is on mobiles.

Summary.
Handset must transmit so that you can listen, to transmit it has to use the network or else you cant decode it, if you use the network it cuts you off the second that the other user hangs up

Tony

Toerag

Have to agree with the others, once a cleardown message is sent by either party the call ends. What could be happening is a 'pretend cleardown', ie. you make it sound like you've put the phone down but haven't. A bit like the premium number scam where people call the number only to hear ringing tone. This seems fine, except that the call was actually answered, and they hear a recording of ringing tone, so they don't put the phone down. after 20 seconds or so the caller gives up, then keeps trying later, clocking up money for the person owning the premium number without realising it.

carl

But if the call is cleared from the mobile end, it wouldn't work. Even if a 'fake' cleardown is issued from the landline end, if the phone believes it to be real it will clear the call down, if not it will still say 'call in progress' or whatever so the user will know

What *is* a security risk is someone attending a meeting making a call beforehand, leaving it connected, then when they walk into the meeting putting the mobile on the table with the call still connected. Person B listening to the call at the other end can hear the entire meeting. It's an ideal bugging device -- it's in the open, but people expect it to be there.

sillysi

Tony,

I agree with what you say, but the bugger new what conversation we had been having, funny thing is all this info is coming from the person who is supposed to of been bugged. So maybe they are winding me up I think a visit to his house is in order to get to the bottom of this one. What do you think of the mobilephonebug.co.uk how does this work?

Si.

carl

If the mobile user initiates the call, then surely if the phone subsequently 'acts as a microphone' the mobile user will get a bill for a very long call! The only way the traffic can get from the mobile phone to the landline is via the mobile phone network, through the mobile phone operator's interconnect with the landline operator's, and via the PSTN. None of the parties involved in this will allow this to happen for free!

If such a device existed, people would be using it to make free calls, not as a bugging device. The telcos and mobile phone operators would take steps to ensure that it didn't work for long. The first edict of being a telco is "make sure you can bill your customers"

sillysi

Is there a provision in ISDN to allow a phone that is on-hook to become off-hook without you knowing? I have heard of this but BT say it is not enabled in the UK.

dsmith

ISDN is digital - there is no notion of "off-hook"/ "on-hook"

You may mean the smaller capacity B channel (ISDN2 has 2x 64K D Channels and 1x16K B channel). This is normmally used for signalling between ISDN devices and the exchange. in some countries, I believe they have a system where it can be used as permanently connected low bandwidth leased line. But no, this isn't available in the UK

Deano

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

Si,
yup seen that site, you still have to connect to the network though and it looks like the phone is programmed with a number so the phone doesnt respond and just connects without looking any different.
This phone is actually different to the ones you can buy off the shelf though as its got some programme in there to enable it to do this.
The other and most important thing you must understand about this too is that its actually ILLEGAL to bug people, its an invasion of privacy and can lead to a jail sentence (it comes under something else but think of the consequences if its in a slightly higher security establishment etc, council offices for instance) and some delicate info gets out.....

Tony

boomer

Tony,

although i think that the suggested "bugging" is crap, i think that it is lawful to record a phone conversation so long as at least one party is aware of the fact - i.e. the caller/bugger.

However, such a poor web-site (MobilePhoneBug) with no hard contact information or even product specifications would put me off from even considering their offering!!!

mb

JackClark

I'd love to know why people want to use a phone as a bug?

JackClark

I'll bug some people to find out why they want a bug

Toerag

Just top clarify the 'fake cleardown', We all know what a cleardown SOUNDS like (a bleep or a clatter/clunk noise). If you heard what you thought were the sounds of clearing down, you would then cleardown. Some people would just assume that the phone would end the call as usual and not bother to actually press the cleardown key. Hence the call stays up until the eavesdropper clears down for real.

carl

Fine, but then the mobile would still be displaying the 'call in progress' screen.

For example, on my Nokia 8310 when a call is in progresss a picture of a receiver is on the screen with the name of the called/calling party (or 'call 1' if no CLI). When the call is terminated, the length of call is displayed for a few seconds. Then the phone returns to the standby screen with the operator logo.

I can't see how someone could think a call had been terminated when the display says otherwise

P1Fanatic

Dunno about this method but you can be sure big brother can listen to you on your mobile. Thats as much as my old man will tell me (works for GCHQ).