Hillsborough: # Jurs-tiss! For da 96! # . . .
27 April 2016, 06:18 PM
#2
A tragic run of events which led to a lot of people losing their lives...but I hope this verdict puts an end to it in the public eye now but it won't as the next round of accountability will start...in all honesty I'm sick of hearing about it, it may sound harsh and my sympathy goes out to everyone directly affected but it's my opinion and you did ask
Last edited by The Pink Ninja; 27 April 2016 at 06:24 PM.
27 April 2016, 06:41 PM
#3
I have nothing but sympathy and admiration for the families and their fight.
I do think it's 'harsh' to beat up on the police/football stadium staff re. the cluster**** that happened on that terrible day. After all, it's easy to criticise after the event from the comfort of one's favourite armchair many years later, and with the benefit of all the evidence. It was a kind of perfect storm - and I don't think the tragic (in the heat of the moment) decision making was 'intentionally' negligent, per se. As I said, it's easy to be clear-minded with the benefit of hindsight/evidence, etc.
Which brings me onto the next bit . . .
What DOES wholly sicken me though is the establishment (police/govt/The Sun) colluding and falsifying statements, etc. so as to be able to 'legitimately' lay the blame with the fans. The adjectives disgusting, atrocious and shameful don't even come close.
So, in the pursuit of upholding democracy - no matter how 'token' these days
- I'm grateful that the families never let it die and fought the injustice - esp. against the mountainous odds! The establishment MUST be called out in such situations.
My only concern now: Will the govt/CPS pursue those they deem worthy of investigation with the same fervor and vigour they would do if it was just ordinary Joe Bloggs; you and me; the man in the street . . . I wouldn't hold your breath.
I do think it's 'harsh' to beat up on the police/football stadium staff re. the cluster**** that happened on that terrible day. After all, it's easy to criticise after the event from the comfort of one's favourite armchair many years later, and with the benefit of all the evidence. It was a kind of perfect storm - and I don't think the tragic (in the heat of the moment) decision making was 'intentionally' negligent, per se. As I said, it's easy to be clear-minded with the benefit of hindsight/evidence, etc.
Which brings me onto the next bit . . .
What DOES wholly sicken me though is the establishment (police/govt/The Sun) colluding and falsifying statements, etc. so as to be able to 'legitimately' lay the blame with the fans. The adjectives disgusting, atrocious and shameful don't even come close.
So, in the pursuit of upholding democracy - no matter how 'token' these days
- I'm grateful that the families never let it die and fought the injustice - esp. against the mountainous odds! The establishment MUST be called out in such situations.My only concern now: Will the govt/CPS pursue those they deem worthy of investigation with the same fervor and vigour they would do if it was just ordinary Joe Bloggs; you and me; the man in the street . . . I wouldn't hold your breath.
Last edited by joz8968; 27 April 2016 at 07:39 PM.
27 April 2016, 06:51 PM
#4
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (23)
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: In the fast lane
Posts: 3,458
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have nothing but sympathy and admiration for the families and their fight.
I do think it's 'harsh' to beat up on the police/football stadium staff re. the cluster**** that happened on that terrible day. After all, it's easy to criticise after the event from the comfort of one's favourite armchair many years later, and with the benefit of all the evidence. It was a kind of perfect storm - and I don't think the (tragic decision making) was 'negligent' (in the heat of the moment), per se. As I said, it's easy to be clear-minded with the benefit of hindsight/evidence, etc.
Which brings me onto the next bit . . .
What DOES wholly sicken me though is the establishment (police/govt/The Sun) colluding and falsifying statements, etc. so as to be able to 'legitimately' lay the blame with the fans. The adjectives disgusting and atrocious don't even come close.
So, in the pursuit of upholding democracy - no matter how 'token' these days - I'm grateful that the families never let it die and fought the injustice, even against all the mountainous odds! The establishment MUST be called out in such situations.
My only concern now: Will the govt/CPS pursue those they deem worthy of investigation with the same fervor and vigour they would do if it was just ordinary Joe Blogs; you and me; the man in the street . . . I wouldn't hold your breath.
I do think it's 'harsh' to beat up on the police/football stadium staff re. the cluster**** that happened on that terrible day. After all, it's easy to criticise after the event from the comfort of one's favourite armchair many years later, and with the benefit of all the evidence. It was a kind of perfect storm - and I don't think the (tragic decision making) was 'negligent' (in the heat of the moment), per se. As I said, it's easy to be clear-minded with the benefit of hindsight/evidence, etc.
Which brings me onto the next bit . . .
What DOES wholly sicken me though is the establishment (police/govt/The Sun) colluding and falsifying statements, etc. so as to be able to 'legitimately' lay the blame with the fans. The adjectives disgusting and atrocious don't even come close.
So, in the pursuit of upholding democracy - no matter how 'token' these days - I'm grateful that the families never let it die and fought the injustice, even against all the mountainous odds! The establishment MUST be called out in such situations.
My only concern now: Will the govt/CPS pursue those they deem worthy of investigation with the same fervor and vigour they would do if it was just ordinary Joe Blogs; you and me; the man in the street . . . I wouldn't hold your breath.
Pretty much my feelings.
96 dead - appalling.
The Police lied for 27 years - utterly shameful.
The families fought for justice for all those years - inspiring.
27 April 2016, 07:32 PM
#5
Scooby Regular
My feelings exactly, though I do have my doubts about disbanding South Yorkshire Police. What purpose would that serve?
27 April 2016, 07:35 PM
#6
Scooby Regular
I just hope they take what ever decision regarding prosecution based on the law and understanding at the time, not modern standards.
Things have come on a long way since then, hindsight is a wonderfull thing
Things have come on a long way since then, hindsight is a wonderfull thing
Trending Topics
27 April 2016, 08:18 PM
#8
Appalling tragedy, however was it not an issue that so many Liverpool fans turned up to the game without tickets? Surly there will have been a set allocation given to the Liverpool supporters by Sheffield Wednesday so the stand should not have been 'overloaded' anyway.
And what caused the crush in the first place? Why was it not a case that the fans decided that "we can't get in there as its too full - so we'll go back and crush into others already in the stand"
And what caused the crush in the first place? Why was it not a case that the fans decided that "we can't get in there as its too full - so we'll go back and crush into others already in the stand"
27 April 2016, 08:27 PM
#9
Scooby Regular
Yorkshire Police are dreadful in general. From the Ripper scandal to the 1400 girls let down in Rotherham. I can't say I know anyone who hasn't been beat up or knows of someone who has been beat up by the Wakefield Police.
27 April 2016, 08:35 PM
#10
Scooby Regular
Appalling tragedy, however was it not an issue that so many Liverpool fans turned up to the game without tickets? Surly there will have been a set allocation given to the Liverpool supporters by Sheffield Wednesday so the stand should not have been 'overloaded' anyway.
And what caused the crush in the first place? Why was it not a case that the fans decided that "we can't get in there as its too full - so we'll go back and crush into others already in the stand"
And what caused the crush in the first place? Why was it not a case that the fans decided that "we can't get in there as its too full - so we'll go back and crush into others already in the stand"
Both wrong
27 April 2016, 08:42 PM
#11
So what caused the crush?
If the Liverpool supporters were allocated 5,000 tickets. Then 5,000 fans should have turned up and should have been able to walk easily into the stadium ready for the game without anyone getting crushed.
If the stadium could not accommodate 5,000 supporters, then this will be the fault of Sheffield Wednesdays' management for allocating tickets for a stand that could not accommodate them
If the Liverpool supporters were allocated 5,000 tickets. Then 5,000 fans should have turned up and should have been able to walk easily into the stadium ready for the game without anyone getting crushed.
If the stadium could not accommodate 5,000 supporters, then this will be the fault of Sheffield Wednesdays' management for allocating tickets for a stand that could not accommodate them
27 April 2016, 09:09 PM
#13
Scooby Regular
So what caused the crush?
If the Liverpool supporters were allocated 5,000 tickets. Then 5,000 fans should have turned up and should have been able to walk easily into the stadium ready for the game without anyone getting crushed.
If the stadium could not accommodate 5,000 supporters, then this will be the fault of Sheffield Wednesdays' management for allocating tickets for a stand that could not accommodate them
If the Liverpool supporters were allocated 5,000 tickets. Then 5,000 fans should have turned up and should have been able to walk easily into the stadium ready for the game without anyone getting crushed.
If the stadium could not accommodate 5,000 supporters, then this will be the fault of Sheffield Wednesdays' management for allocating tickets for a stand that could not accommodate them
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19545126
And read the inquest verdict Sheffield Wednesday management where shown to be at fault too
28 April 2016, 06:28 AM
#15
Awful disaster.But as ashamed as I am to say it,bored of it now.The answer has been obvious for years
I will never trust the police again anyway,so verdict doesn't surprise me.
What surprises me more is the jurors getting two years off work!!
I will never trust the police again anyway,so verdict doesn't surprise me.
What surprises me more is the jurors getting two years off work!!
28 April 2016, 07:02 AM
#16
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Sunny Abu Dhabi!
Posts: 446
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi,
What people also forget was the need for strong metal fences between the stands and the pitches - to prevent football hooligans from disrupting the games.
I would never have wanted to attend matches in those days as a supporter placed in a big metal cage.
Luckily, the mindset of football supporters has also greatly changed in the last 30 years and we don't see the levels of violence that were common in the 80's.
These levels of violence made it easier for the police and press to blame the fans on that day - as this was the public perception of football supporters in those days.
I watched both Burnham and Mays speeches in the commons yesterday afternoon and was pleased to see that party politics were suspended and they both came out very well for their dedication and persistence in making sure the truth came out - even after so long.
Cheers
Steve
What people also forget was the need for strong metal fences between the stands and the pitches - to prevent football hooligans from disrupting the games.
I would never have wanted to attend matches in those days as a supporter placed in a big metal cage.
Luckily, the mindset of football supporters has also greatly changed in the last 30 years and we don't see the levels of violence that were common in the 80's.
These levels of violence made it easier for the police and press to blame the fans on that day - as this was the public perception of football supporters in those days.
I watched both Burnham and Mays speeches in the commons yesterday afternoon and was pleased to see that party politics were suspended and they both came out very well for their dedication and persistence in making sure the truth came out - even after so long.
Cheers
Steve
28 April 2016, 07:45 AM
#17
Those who died was tragic; they did nothing wrong. They turned up on time, had tickets and were already in the ground waiting for kick off.
The police cover up and press collusion is corruption on the highest level. Criminal charges should be made on this.
Despite all of this, I still think on that day, regardless of what the police or match organisers did, someone would have been killed. IMO it was unavoidable. There was too many people in one placed trying to get inside the stands.
Just look at the video footage outside of the grounds and ask yourself...where would you put all of these people?
The gate was opened because people outside was being crushed. That was wrong as it just moved the problem from outside the ground to inside.
My issue here is this important factor seems to have been brushed aside. The labels of drunk ticketless fans somehow got applied to the ones that got killed, which we know was BS. But those that turned up late trying to get in at the last minute....where were they, why were they so late, why did all turn up in a surge just before kick off?
The real answer IMO lies somewhere in between, those that were already inside were blameless. Police and match organiser and ambulance dispatchers cocked up big style. Fans turning up late probably arrived in good time, but instead of entering grounds spent a few hours in the nearby pubs..which is a tradition before any footy match (was the same when I used watch west brom games). So inevitable some would be drunk, some didn't have tickets (touting was rife back then), and many left it far too late to try and get into the ground. Blame has to be apportioned to those who were late.
How the management of the excessive numbers of late fans were handled is IMO a different matter. The are many factors to blame, but the media over simplified it yet again and just apportion blame to one area.
There's a silent crowd of sheepish fans in this country that were there and were late for whatever reason. They need to put their hands up and say they are partly responsible too. Their collective action was a prime factor; Through poor police organisation they were allowed to flood an area and get into a already full stand. If the police did nothing, those who were outside the ground would have been crushed instead.
IMO deaths were inevitable, and the police should not of opened those gates to protect fans already inside.
The police cover up and press collusion is corruption on the highest level. Criminal charges should be made on this.
Despite all of this, I still think on that day, regardless of what the police or match organisers did, someone would have been killed. IMO it was unavoidable. There was too many people in one placed trying to get inside the stands.
Just look at the video footage outside of the grounds and ask yourself...where would you put all of these people?
The gate was opened because people outside was being crushed. That was wrong as it just moved the problem from outside the ground to inside.
My issue here is this important factor seems to have been brushed aside. The labels of drunk ticketless fans somehow got applied to the ones that got killed, which we know was BS. But those that turned up late trying to get in at the last minute....where were they, why were they so late, why did all turn up in a surge just before kick off?
The real answer IMO lies somewhere in between, those that were already inside were blameless. Police and match organiser and ambulance dispatchers cocked up big style. Fans turning up late probably arrived in good time, but instead of entering grounds spent a few hours in the nearby pubs..which is a tradition before any footy match (was the same when I used watch west brom games). So inevitable some would be drunk, some didn't have tickets (touting was rife back then), and many left it far too late to try and get into the ground. Blame has to be apportioned to those who were late.
How the management of the excessive numbers of late fans were handled is IMO a different matter. The are many factors to blame, but the media over simplified it yet again and just apportion blame to one area.
There's a silent crowd of sheepish fans in this country that were there and were late for whatever reason. They need to put their hands up and say they are partly responsible too. Their collective action was a prime factor; Through poor police organisation they were allowed to flood an area and get into a already full stand. If the police did nothing, those who were outside the ground would have been crushed instead.
IMO deaths were inevitable, and the police should not of opened those gates to protect fans already inside.
Last edited by ALi-B; 28 April 2016 at 07:48 AM.
28 April 2016, 09:03 AM
#18
Appalling tragedy, however was it not an issue that so many Liverpool fans turned up to the game without tickets? Surly there will have been a set allocation given to the Liverpool supporters by Sheffield Wednesday so the stand should not have been 'overloaded' anyway.
And what caused the crush in the first place? Why was it not a case that the fans decided that "we can't get in there as its too full - so we'll go back and crush into others already in the stand"
And what caused the crush in the first place? Why was it not a case that the fans decided that "we can't get in there as its too full - so we'll go back and crush into others already in the stand"
28 April 2016, 12:00 PM
#19
Whoever opened the gates and let 10000 people without tickets in !is responsible. It should have been dealt with outside
Although I do want to see where you got 10000 from?
28 April 2016, 12:02 PM
#20
Scooby Regular
Fantastic result 
Shame the actions of the FA in the whoe thing seem to have escaped censure though
They are the ones who selected Hillsborough for the semi-final, the Leppings Lane end was infamous among away fans well before the tragedy occurred, see Nick Hornby's excellent Fever Pitch.
The FA are also the ones who refused to allow the kick off to be delayed
The fans didn't turn up without tickets, but a large number did arrive late, not because they'd all been drinking as the Police claimed, but because some bright spark in the highways agency closed the M62 that morning without notifying anyone.
South Yorkshire police at the time were more like a state sponsored militia than a police force, memories were still fresh from what they viewed as victory in the war against the miners
I stopped going to Leeds & Sheffield games during that period. Hostility from home fans was expected, but S Yorks police were a something else
Shame the actions of the FA in the whoe thing seem to have escaped censure though
They are the ones who selected Hillsborough for the semi-final, the Leppings Lane end was infamous among away fans well before the tragedy occurred, see Nick Hornby's excellent Fever Pitch.
The FA are also the ones who refused to allow the kick off to be delayed
Appalling tragedy, however was it not an issue that so many Liverpool fans turned up to the game without tickets? Surly there will have been a set allocation given to the Liverpool supporters by Sheffield Wednesday so the stand should not have been 'overloaded' anyway.
And what caused the crush in the first place? Why was it not a case that the fans decided that "we can't get in there as its too full - so we'll go back and crush into others already in the stand"
And what caused the crush in the first place? Why was it not a case that the fans decided that "we can't get in there as its too full - so we'll go back and crush into others already in the stand"
South Yorkshire police at the time were more like a state sponsored militia than a police force, memories were still fresh from what they viewed as victory in the war against the miners
I stopped going to Leeds & Sheffield games during that period. Hostility from home fans was expected, but S Yorks police were a something else
28 April 2016, 12:25 PM
#21
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Worthing..
Posts: 7,575
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The fault lies with the control of admittance. It was the police that decided to let those fans into the ground through the exits.
28 April 2016, 12:29 PM
#22
If you are aware that it is an all ticket match, then the fans waiting to get in will have their tickets and so the ground should accommodate them.
And could you foresee that the crowd of fans would push their way into an already crowded area? or would you assume that the fans would see that the tunnel is too full of fans, so better move to another part of the stand to get in. Could you foresee that the fans would keep pushing and pushing and pushing from the back.
28 April 2016, 12:33 PM
#23
The police should have let the crush happen at those gates and put up with those deaths? I'm sure the question will have been asked - "why did the police not open that gate to stop the crush?"
28 April 2016, 12:35 PM
#24
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Berks
Posts: 4,224
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree with much of what you have said, however confronted with a crush at the gates - would it have been acceptable to let this crush happen and risk people dying at these gates, when you had it in your power to relieve the pressure and open the gate?
If you are aware that it is an all ticket match, then the fans waiting to get in will have their tickets and so the ground should accommodate them.
And could you foresee that the crowd of fans would push their way into an already crowded area? or would you assume that the fans would see that the tunnel is too full of fans, so better move to another part of the stand to get in. Could you foresee that the fans would keep pushing and pushing and pushing from the back.
If you are aware that it is an all ticket match, then the fans waiting to get in will have their tickets and so the ground should accommodate them.
And could you foresee that the crowd of fans would push their way into an already crowded area? or would you assume that the fans would see that the tunnel is too full of fans, so better move to another part of the stand to get in. Could you foresee that the fans would keep pushing and pushing and pushing from the back.
28 April 2016, 12:39 PM
#25
Scooby Regular
not really, if there was 5000 ticket holders and 5000 seats/stand then there would be no crush unless the figure being let in was higher than the space. Aka more people than ticket holders
28 April 2016, 12:45 PM
#26
The pictures from the media that day seem to show a lot more than 2,500 fans at that point. And 2,500 people is not a massive amount of people to move through turnstiles in half an hour in an orderly manner.
And if there were road problems that day and the fans knew they were going to be a bit late, why didn't they accept they might miss the first five minutes of the match and arrive in an orderly manner - why was their a need to 'push' their way forward?
28 April 2016, 12:45 PM
#27
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Worthing..
Posts: 7,575
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So the fans knowing they have no tickets to get in, but decided to try and 'sneak in' anyway and not to blame at all?
The police should have let the crush happen at those gates and put up with those deaths? I'm sure the question will have been asked - "why did the police not open that gate to stop the crush?"
The police should have let the crush happen at those gates and put up with those deaths? I'm sure the question will have been asked - "why did the police not open that gate to stop the crush?"
There is a fundamental difference between funneling people into a finite area versus people queueing up in a "infinite area" (i.e. outside the ground)
28 April 2016, 12:47 PM
#28
But if everyone had tickets and the stadium would accommodate that number, then they should not have been a crush anywhere at all. Fans would enter and walk to a place which was not crowded, as they all had tickets and would be able to stand and see the game. Why the need to crush themselves forward into a small space?
28 April 2016, 12:53 PM
#29
Scooby Regular
By 1430, half the fans were already in the stand, which meant about 5,000 were waiting to get in - if all of them had tickets. There were also two banks of turnstiles which equates to 2,500 fans per bank. So that means around 2,500 fans were against gate 'C' with 30 minutes before kick off.
The pictures from the media that day seem to show a lot more than 2,500 fans at that point. And 2,500 people is not a massive amount of people to move through turnstiles in half an hour in an orderly manner.
And if there were road problems that day and the fans knew they were going to be a bit late, why didn't they accept they might miss the first five minutes of the match and arrive in an orderly manner - why was their a need to 'push' their way forward?
The pictures from the media that day seem to show a lot more than 2,500 fans at that point. And 2,500 people is not a massive amount of people to move through turnstiles in half an hour in an orderly manner.
And if there were road problems that day and the fans knew they were going to be a bit late, why didn't they accept they might miss the first five minutes of the match and arrive in an orderly manner - why was their a need to 'push' their way forward?
PS: It's understandable that being dibble, you have a natural tendency to defend your colleagues, but surely you must see that the actions of the senior ranks present that day (both on the day and subsequently) are indefensible?
PPS: Having stated the above, I do also recognise that being a season ticket holder at Anfield colours my view of events too.
Last edited by CrisPDuk; 28 April 2016 at 12:56 PM.
