Hillsborough: # Jurs-tiss! For da 96! # . . .
28 April 2016, 01:02 PM
#31
But if everyone had tickets and the stadium would accommodate that number, then they should not have been a crush anywhere at all. Fans would enter and walk to a place which was not crowded, as they all had tickets and would be able to stand and see the game. Why the need to crush themselves forward into a small space?
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/v...disaster-video
28 April 2016, 01:03 PM
#32
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Even if a million people turned up without tickets, and late,, the blame for deaths does not lie with those people, it lies with those that controlled admittance. I.e the Police.
Put it this way. If you have a lot of people queuing up to get into a nightclub, and the night club suddenly lets everyone in and people die in a crush , or a fire, are you going to blame the people queuing for deaths, or the nightclub that took the decisions?
This was a failure by the police to control entry. And the subsequent cover up and smear campaign was utterly reprehensible. Thankfully all this is now a matter of historical fact. It has been reviewed by people with access to far more information than we have and the verdict has been given. The police were culpable. Not the fans. Fact.
Put it this way. If you have a lot of people queuing up to get into a nightclub, and the night club suddenly lets everyone in and people die in a crush , or a fire, are you going to blame the people queuing for deaths, or the nightclub that took the decisions?
This was a failure by the police to control entry. And the subsequent cover up and smear campaign was utterly reprehensible. Thankfully all this is now a matter of historical fact. It has been reviewed by people with access to far more information than we have and the verdict has been given. The police were culpable. Not the fans. Fact.
28 April 2016, 01:06 PM
#33
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Even if a million people turned up without tickets, and late,, the blame for deaths does not lie with those people, it lies with those that controlled admittance. I.e the Police.
Put it this way. If you have a lot of people queuing up to get into a nightclub, and the night club suddenly lets everyone in and people die in a crush , or a fire, are you going to blame the people queuing for deaths, or the nightclub that took the decisions?
This was a failure by the police to control entry. And the subsequent cover up and smear campaign was utterly reprehensible. Thankfully all this is now a matter of historical fact. It has been reviewed by people with access to far more information than we have and the verdict has been given. The police were culpable. Not the fans. Fact.
Put it this way. If you have a lot of people queuing up to get into a nightclub, and the night club suddenly lets everyone in and people die in a crush , or a fire, are you going to blame the people queuing for deaths, or the nightclub that took the decisions?
This was a failure by the police to control entry. And the subsequent cover up and smear campaign was utterly reprehensible. Thankfully all this is now a matter of historical fact. It has been reviewed by people with access to far more information than we have and the verdict has been given. The police were culpable. Not the fans. Fact.
While the police did a very poor job of crowd control and the decisions made, they wern't the ones doing the pushing.
Controversial? maybe, but also 100% truth
28 April 2016, 01:10 PM
#34
Regardless of who was to blame and the tragic events, I certainly hope this brings an end to it all but considering we are talking about winging scousers here who have a penchant for never forgetting anything, I doubt it.
And what a surprise that about 400 of the families are suing
Any excuse to sing that ****ing awful song
And what a surprise that about 400 of the families are suing
Any excuse to sing that ****ing awful song
28 April 2016, 01:13 PM
#35
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Regardless of who was to blame and the tragic events, I certainly hope this brings an end to it all but considering we are talking about winging scousers here who have a penchant for never forgetting anything, I doubt it.
And what a surprise that about 400 of the families are suing
Any excuse to sing that ****ing awful song
And what a surprise that about 400 of the families are suing
Any excuse to sing that ****ing awful song
28 April 2016, 01:23 PM
#37
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the second money came into it true colours were shown. Criminal charges ( if there are any to be faced) are justice, money and compensation isn't.
28 April 2016, 01:24 PM
#38
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like any tragedy it was a number of events all happening together - no ONE single event
so the opening of the gates would NOT have caused crush in pens 3 and 4 (where all the people died)
IF the gates to the tunnel (into pens 3 and 4) had then been closed, this would have forced the fans to go into alternate pens and not straight down the tunnel
and this WAS known operating procedure at the stadium
wow so much ignorance on this thread
so the opening of the gates would NOT have caused crush in pens 3 and 4 (where all the people died)
IF the gates to the tunnel (into pens 3 and 4) had then been closed, this would have forced the fans to go into alternate pens and not straight down the tunnel
and this WAS known operating procedure at the stadium
wow so much ignorance on this thread
Last edited by hodgy0_2; 28 April 2016 at 01:33 PM.
28 April 2016, 01:27 PM
#39
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It entirely irrelevant. If you push on to a train on the underground, which lots of people do, thousands of times every single day, do you assume you are killing someone?
28 April 2016, 01:32 PM
#40
like any tragedy is was a number of events all happening together
so the opening of the gates would NOT have caused crush in pens 3 and 4 (where all the people died)
IF the gates to the tunnel (into pens 3 and 4) had then been closed, this would have forced the fans to go into alternate pens and not straight down the tunnel
and this WAS known operating procedure at the stadium
wow so much ignorance on this thread
so the opening of the gates would NOT have caused crush in pens 3 and 4 (where all the people died)
IF the gates to the tunnel (into pens 3 and 4) had then been closed, this would have forced the fans to go into alternate pens and not straight down the tunnel
and this WAS known operating procedure at the stadium
wow so much ignorance on this thread
I guess if some of the posters on here had lost loved ones they would have just said "Ahhh well, **** happens" Would they hell.
The opening of the gate and the not closing of the tunnel was a decision made by Duckenfield that resulted in the death of 96 innocent men, women and children.
Do people think this was the 1st ever semi-final held at Hillsborough? I was there in 1987 for the Leeds vs Coventry game. Leeds had the Leppings Lane end and nobody was killed. Why? Because the Policeman in charge of matchday operations knew what he was doing.
28 April 2016, 01:32 PM
#41
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like all things that happen, there is a chain of events that if even one is broken the tragedy doesn't happen.
28 April 2016, 01:56 PM
#42
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The people that were trying to get into the ground are not to blame, the people that let them in are. It's as simple as that.
28 April 2016, 02:01 PM
#43
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So its ok to push your way in then?
28 April 2016, 02:07 PM
#44
28 April 2016, 02:59 PM
#45
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What do you mean "push"? Were a few people at the back pushing and that rippled through thousands of people to the people at the front ? Of course not. Crowds don't work like that. There was an exit turned into an entrance, with no breakwaters, with no filtering and the Police said "there you go, go in that way" and people did.
Were the people at the back supposed to have omnipresent knowledge as to what was happening at the front?
Pushing and shoving happens all the time in mass attended events, it's nothing new. But somehow all these events manage not to kill anyone. That's not down to luck.
Were the people at the back supposed to have omnipresent knowledge as to what was happening at the front?
Pushing and shoving happens all the time in mass attended events, it's nothing new. But somehow all these events manage not to kill anyone. That's not down to luck.
28 April 2016, 03:09 PM
#46
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Hodgy, spot on.
I guess if some of the posters on here had lost loved ones they would have just said "Ahhh well, **** happens" Would they hell.
The opening of the gate and the not closing of the tunnel was a decision made by Duckenfield that resulted in the death of 96 innocent men, women and children.
Do people think this was the 1st ever semi-final held at Hillsborough? I was there in 1987 for the Leeds vs Coventry game. Leeds had the Leppings Lane end and nobody was killed. Why? Because the Policeman in charge of matchday operations knew what he was doing.
I guess if some of the posters on here had lost loved ones they would have just said "Ahhh well, **** happens" Would they hell.
The opening of the gate and the not closing of the tunnel was a decision made by Duckenfield that resulted in the death of 96 innocent men, women and children.
Do people think this was the 1st ever semi-final held at Hillsborough? I was there in 1987 for the Leeds vs Coventry game. Leeds had the Leppings Lane end and nobody was killed. Why? Because the Policeman in charge of matchday operations knew what he was doing.
that mistakes happen is a tragedy and I am sure there was no intent on the day,
but the shameless cover-up and collusion by the police et al is an absolute scandal in my view
28 April 2016, 05:24 PM
#47
amazing the level of ignorance over this - all the information is now in the public domain (and actually has been known for years) and still people peddle bullsh1te its incredible
that mistakes happen is a tragedy and I am sure there was no intent on the day,
but the shameless cover-up and collusion by the police et al is an absolute scandal in my view
that mistakes happen is a tragedy and I am sure there was no intent on the day,
but the shameless cover-up and collusion by the police et al is an absolute scandal in my view
The resulting cover ups were plainly inexcusable, but the football violence that was prevalent at the time undoubtedly caused the police on the ground to make incorrect decisions when fans started pouring onto the pitch.
28 April 2016, 06:10 PM
#49
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28 April 2016, 06:11 PM
#50
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The cover up was indeed inexcusable, but was that criminal in the law at that time?
28 April 2016, 07:54 PM
#53
The disaster itself was a classic perfect storm of unintended consequences of well-meant actions going tragically wrong, but the cover-up was nothing short of a national disgrace. We should all be thankful that the families of the victims have shown the determination they did to see their legal challenge through to the end. Without that, the institutions involved wouldn't ever have the chance to properly redeem themselves, and our nation would remain the poorer for it.
28 April 2016, 08:27 PM
#55
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That in a way those 96 (so many teenagers and little boys and girls) paid for the sins of the football hooligans in the 70 and early 80's
(By 1990 and beyond it was not really an issue)
But that is no excuse really, has as been pointed this situation was not new
Last edited by hodgy0_2; 28 April 2016 at 09:12 PM.
29 April 2016, 07:57 AM
#56
It's strange looking at it in this day and age. Any other large non-football event these days has minimal police supervision (unless roads are closed). But back then police would out in force in large numbers and more direct control. Even football today has increased police presence. But these days it just for keeping the peace and closing roads rather than heading crowds to/from a stadium. The hearding nowadays is done by grounds staff.
On that basis of what ifs....what if there was no police. What would have happened?
As I said earlier, the crush would have occurred outside the grounds. So we should look at the organisers, ground owners and football associations for using a ground that was unfit for purpose.
If you were a employer and the company you own managed unsafe/unsuitable premises, and a employee or member of public was killed as a result of it, those business owners would (should?) be criminally charged on manslaughter. So IMO those responsible for holding this event at Hilsbourough should be criminally charged. The inquest has already proven the grounds were unfit for purpose.
On that basis of what ifs....what if there was no police. What would have happened?
As I said earlier, the crush would have occurred outside the grounds. So we should look at the organisers, ground owners and football associations for using a ground that was unfit for purpose.
If you were a employer and the company you own managed unsafe/unsuitable premises, and a employee or member of public was killed as a result of it, those business owners would (should?) be criminally charged on manslaughter. So IMO those responsible for holding this event at Hilsbourough should be criminally charged. The inquest has already proven the grounds were unfit for purpose.
Last edited by ALi-B; 29 April 2016 at 08:00 AM.
29 April 2016, 08:36 AM
#57
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I remember watching the terrible event unfolding on the TV, it was heart retching.
The main points at will always remain with me is the sadness at the loss of life,
The disgracefull misinformation given out by the police and the willingness of newspapers like mainly the Sun falsely reporting what had happened, I can remember the papers reporting on dead bodies being rifled for money and the crowd pissing on police that were trying to help.
The main points at will always remain with me is the sadness at the loss of life,
The disgracefull misinformation given out by the police and the willingness of newspapers like mainly the Sun falsely reporting what had happened, I can remember the papers reporting on dead bodies being rifled for money and the crowd pissing on police that were trying to help.
29 April 2016, 10:41 AM
#58
It's strange looking at it in this day and age. Any other large non-football event these days has minimal police supervision (unless roads are closed). But back then police would out in force in large numbers and more direct control. Even football today has increased police presence. But these days it just for keeping the peace and closing roads rather than heading crowds to/from a stadium. The hearding nowadays is done by grounds staff.
I think 1989 still had the ban of English clubs in Europe for various disorder and riots at matches, so there was a need for a police presence as the opinions at the time by politicians and public alike was that football was rife with hooligans.
29 April 2016, 12:28 PM
#59
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Its ironic in a way, as the presence of 'pens' in the stadium came as a direct result of the Heysel stadium disaster in 1985, where rioting Liverpool fans ran across the terraces and the ensuing events caused the death of about 40 Juventus fans
I think 1989 still had the ban of English clubs in Europe for various disorder and riots at matches, so there was a need for a police presence as the opinions at the time by politicians and public alike was that football was rife with hooligans.
I think 1989 still had the ban of English clubs in Europe for various disorder and riots at matches, so there was a need for a police presence as the opinions at the time by politicians and public alike was that football was rife with hooligans.
29 April 2016, 01:06 PM
#60
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Its ironic in a way, as the presence of 'pens' in the stadium came as a direct result of the Heysel stadium disaster in 1985, where rioting Liverpool fans ran across the terraces and the ensuing events caused the death of about 40 Juventus fans
I think 1989 still had the ban of English clubs in Europe for various disorder and riots at matches, so there was a need for a police presence as the opinions at the time by politicians and public alike was that football was rife with hooligans.
I think 1989 still had the ban of English clubs in Europe for various disorder and riots at matches, so there was a need for a police presence as the opinions at the time by politicians and public alike was that football was rife with hooligans.
Felix, you need to be careful here. You have now insinuated that Liverpool fans created the circumstances in which the Hillsborough happened. You are factually incorrect (deliberately I would suggest). Football 'pens' we in existence for years before Heysel, and definitely NOT 'as a direct result of Heysel'.
Heysel did not create the Hillsborough disaster, and I can't for the life of me understand why you would try and link the 2 in such a 'dog whistle' way??
Last edited by Martin2005; 29 April 2016 at 01:09 PM.