Saalro

iTrader: (8)

Convo was about how wider tyres reduce grip:

I don't get it, more tread, more grip i would think!?

Thanks

bmposer

iTrader: (3)

I would have thought the same.

scoobyricht

iTrader: (4)

wider tyres reduce grip in the wet due to having to move a lot more water, everyone knows that. in the dry more rubber on the road means more contact and more physical contact so should be more grip. thats why high power rear drive cars have very wide tyres.

Saalro

iTrader: (8)

Ahhh so weather dependant.

Thanks

addison

the contact area on the road will be the same
the contact patch is down to car weight and psi

Wider tyres will help with side ways slip as patch will be wider
but thinner!

Saalro

iTrader: (8)

Thanks but don't get it still lol.

JohnD

iTrader: (5)

It's basic physics. The larger the contact area, the lower the pressure on the road (as the weight of the car remains the same) In conditions such as rain or snow, it's pressure you need. Why do you think rally cars have such skinny tyres on the snow stages?

JohnD

addison

Fat or thin? The question of contact patches and grip
If there's one question guaranteed to promote argument and counter argument, it's this : do wide tyres give me better grip?
Fat tyres look good. In fact they look stonkingly good. In the dry they are mercilessly full of grip. In the wet, you might want to make sure your insurance is paid up, especially if you're in a rear-wheel-drive car. Contrary to what you might think (and to what I used to think), bigger contact patch does not necessarily mean increased grip. Better yet, fatter tyres do not mean bigger contact patch. Confused? Check it out:


Pressure=weight/area.

That's about as simple a physics equation as you can get. For the general case of most car tyres travelling on a road, it works pretty well. Let me explain. Let's say you've got some regular tyres, as supplied with your car. They're inflated to 30psi and your car weighs 1500Kg. Roughly speaking, each tyre is taking about a quarter of your car's weight - in this case 375Kg. In metric, 30psi is about 2.11Kg/cm².
By that formula, the area of your contact patch is going to be roughly 375 / 2.11 = 177.7cm² (weight divided by pressure)
Let's say your standard tyres are 185/65R14 - a good middle-ground, factory-fit tyre. That means the tread width is 18.5cm side to side. So your contact patch with all these variables is going to be about 177.7cm² / 18.5, which is 9.8cm. Your contact patch is a rectangle 18.5cm across the width of the tyre by 9.8cm front-to-back where it sits 'flat' on the road.
Still with me? Great. You've taken your car to the tyre dealer and with the help of my tyre calculator, figured out that you can get some swanky 225/50R15 tyres. You polish up the 15inch rims, get the tyres fitted and drive off. Let's look at the equation again. The weight of your car bearing down on the wheels hasn't changed. The PSI in the tyres is going to be about the same. If those two variables haven't changed, then your contact patch is still going to be the same : 177.7cm²
However you now have wider tyres - the tread width is now 22.5cm instead of 18.5cm. The same contact patch but with wider tyres means a narrower contact area front-to-back. In this example, it becomes 177.7cm² / 22.5, which is 7.8cm.


And there is your 'eureka' moment. Overall, the area of your contact patch has remained more or less the same. But by putting wider tyres on, the shape of the contact patch has changed. Actually, the contact patch is really a squashed oval rather than a rectangle, but for the sake of simplicity on this site, I've illustrated it as a rectangle - it makes the concept a little easier to understand. So has the penny dropped? I'll assume it has. So now you understand that it makes no difference to the contact patch, this leads us on nicely to the sticky topic of grip.

The area of the contact patch does not affect the actual grip of the tyre. The things that do affect grip are the coefficient of friction of the rubber compound and the load on the tyre. As far as friction is concerned, the formula is relatively simple - F=uN, where F is the frictional force, N is the Normal force for the surfaces being pressed together and u is the coefficient of friction. In the case of a tyre, the Normal force basically stays the same - mass of the car multiplied by gravity. The coefficient of friction also remains unchanged because it's dependent on the two surfaces - in this case the road and the tyre's rubber.
The coefficient of friction is in part determined by the rubber compound's ability to 'key' with the road surface at a microscopic level.


This explains why you can slide in a corner if you change road surface - for example going from a rough road to a smooth road, or a road surface covered in rain and diesel (a motorcyclist's pet peeve). The slide happens because the coefficient of friction has changed.

So do wider tyres give better grip?
If the contact patch remains the same size and the coefficient of friction and frictional force remain the same, then surely there is no difference in performance between narrow and wide tyres? Well there is but it has a lot to do with heat transfer. With a narrow tyre, the contact patch takes up more of the circumference of the tyre so for any given rotation, the sidewall has to compress more to get the contact patch on to the road. Deforming the tyre creates heat. With a longer contact patch and more sidewall deformation, the tyre spends proportionately less time cooling off than a wider tyre which has a shorter contact patch and less sidewall deformation. Why does this matter? Well because the narrower tyre has less capacity for cooling off, it needs to be made of a harder rubber compound in order to better resist heating in the first place. The harder compound has less mechanical keying and a lower coefficient of friction. The wider tyres are typically made of softer compounds with greater mechanical keying and a higher coefficient of friction. And voila - wider tyres = better grip. But not for the reasons we all thought.

What about lateral force in cornering?
In terms of the lateral force applied to a tyre during cornering, you eventually come to a point where slip angle becomes important. The plot below shows an example of normalised lateral force (in Kg) versus slip angle (in degrees). Slip angle is best described as the difference between the angle of the tyres that you've set by steering, and the direction in which the tyres actually want to travel. As you corner the lateral force increases on your tyres, and at some point, the lateral force is going to overcome the mechanical grip of the tyres and that point is defined by the peak slip angle, as shown in the graph. ie. there comes a point at which no matter how much vertical load is applied to the tyre (from the vehicle weight), it's going to be overcome by the lateral force and 'break away' and slip. So why do wider tyres perform better when cornering? Well apart from the softer rubber compound giving better mechanical keying and a higher coefficient of friction, they have lower profile sidewalls. This makes them more resistant to deforming under lateral load, resulting in a more predictable and stable contact patch. In other words, you can get to a higher lateral load before reaching the peak slip angle.


In reality, trying to figure this out using static examples and reading some internet hack's website is all but impossible because what's really important here is dynamic setup. In reality the contact patch is effectively spinning around your tyre at some horrendous speed. When you brake or corner, load-transfer happens and all the tyres start to behave differently to each other. This is why weight transfer makes such a difference the handling dynamics of the car. Braking for instance; weight moves forward, so load on the front tyres increases. The reverse happens to the rear at the same time, creating a car which can oversteer at the drop of a hat. The Mercedes A-class had this problem when it came out. The load-transfer was all wrong, and a rapid left-right-left on the steering wheel would upset the load so much that the vehicle lost grip in the rear, went sideways, re-acquired grip and rolled over. (That's since been changed.) The Audi TT had a problem too because the load on it's rear wheels wasn't enough to prevent oversteer which is why all the new models have that daft little spoiler on the back.

If your brain isn't running out of your ears already, then here's a link to where you can find many raging debates that go on in the Subaru forums about this very subject. If you decide to read this, you should bear in mind that Simon de Banke, webmaster of ScoobyNet, is a highly respected expert in vehicle dynamics and handling, and is also an extremely talented rally driver. It's also worth noting that he holds the World Record for driving sideways...........

If you decide to fatten up the tyres on your car, another consideration should be clearance with bits of your car. There's no point in getting super-fat tyres if they're going to rub against the inside of your wheel arches. Also, on cars with McPherson strut front suspension, there's a very real possibility that the tyre will foul the steering linkage on the suspension. Check it first!

Holy crap that's complicated. Isn't there a shorter answer?
Yes.
Choose the dimensions of your tyre according to the 'comfort/cornering speed' ratio that suits you. Lower profile/series = more precise cornering. Higher profile/series = more comfort. To increase the contact patch, lower the tyre pressure a little.

JohnD

iTrader: (5)

Good grief! can't be asked to wade through that lot at 11pm JohnD

Saalro

iTrader: (8)

Thanks