cutting front cross member?
16 June 2007, 09:03 PM
#1
cutting front cross member?
Just about to fit a FMIC to my new age, and it appears it needs to have the cross member cut (essentially, the middle needs to be taken out).
Question is simply, is this safe to do? It seems like all FMIC kits out there for the new age require this, but I'm still a bit iffy about it
Question is simply, is this safe to do? It seems like all FMIC kits out there for the new age require this, but I'm still a bit iffy about it
17 June 2007, 09:09 AM
#2
Scooby Regular
Don't know if it's the same as the one on a classic, but if it IS that one that goes between the two headlights, it doesn't have a great deal of strength to it. I can't imagine it's a structural part of the car. It DOES however slot into the front of the chassis rail on each side and perhaps ties these together in a crash?
17 June 2007, 09:13 AM
#3
HI Henrik,
Long time no see! How are the STI Alloys? Did you get that scratch fixed?
When I fitted my APS we also had to grind a bit down. When we did we took it back as for as we could still ensuring that the spot welds would hold (Taking off the excess).
Its not something people mention, so I thought it was because my car had an ALK fitted.
In hind sight, I would have like dto have taken it right back ever further for more clearance and then re-spotted the join with a mig welder.
Although, I wonder if most people just grind it back and leae it, as the remainder of the welds will be enough.
Im sure Arron will enjoy this picture of him
Long time no see! How are the STI Alloys? Did you get that scratch fixed?
When I fitted my APS we also had to grind a bit down. When we did we took it back as for as we could still ensuring that the spot welds would hold (Taking off the excess).
Its not something people mention, so I thought it was because my car had an ALK fitted.
In hind sight, I would have like dto have taken it right back ever further for more clearance and then re-spotted the join with a mig welder.
Although, I wonder if most people just grind it back and leae it, as the remainder of the welds will be enough.
Im sure Arron will enjoy this picture of him
17 June 2007, 11:13 AM
#4
HI Henrik,
Long time no see! How are the STI Alloys? Did you get that scratch fixed?
When I fitted my APS we also had to grind a bit down. When we did we took it back as for as we could still ensuring that the spot welds would hold (Taking off the excess).
Its not something people mention, so I thought it was because my car had an ALK fitted.
In hind sight, I would have like dto have taken it right back ever further for more clearance and then re-spotted the join with a mig welder.
Although, I wonder if most people just grind it back and leae it, as the remainder of the welds will be enough.
Im sure Arron will enjoy this picture of him
Long time no see! How are the STI Alloys? Did you get that scratch fixed?
When I fitted my APS we also had to grind a bit down. When we did we took it back as for as we could still ensuring that the spot welds would hold (Taking off the excess).
Its not something people mention, so I thought it was because my car had an ALK fitted.
In hind sight, I would have like dto have taken it right back ever further for more clearance and then re-spotted the join with a mig welder.
Although, I wonder if most people just grind it back and leae it, as the remainder of the welds will be enough.
Im sure Arron will enjoy this picture of him
The STI alloys are still doing excellently, never got around to fixing the scratch as I don't notice it anyway (and the car never goes out in salt anyway). Still on the original F1's too, as I've only done about 7000 miles since I bought them
I believe the APS kit comes with a replacement bar or something, doesn't it? Is that the black thing in the picture?
Or is it different because it's a JDM?Here's a shot of mine with the bumper off: http://www.bilar.co.uk/ebayfmic/front_small.jpg . Ignore the ebay part of the URL, i'm not fitting that one, but it's a decent shot of the beam I'm talking about
I.e. the one that requires cutting is the big fat one in front, not the one that sits on top of it. I think that I could get away with just cutting a section out in the middle, big enough to slot the intercooler in
As the bar is essentially a rectangular piece of metal, do you think that if I cut out only a part of it, sort of like this:http://www.bilar.co.uk/ebayfmic/frontmember.JPG
My thinking here is that the little sides would make it stronger than just having the back on it's own (or even no bar)? I'm not a structural engineer of course, but does that make sense?
Originally Posted by SilentRunning
Don't know if it's the same as the one on a classic, but if it IS that one that goes between the two headlights, it doesn't have a great deal of strength to it. I can't imagine it's a structural part of the car. It DOES however slot into the front of the chassis rail on each side and perhaps ties these together in a crash?
I'm thinking subaru put the bar there for a reason, and the only one I can think of is crash protection (or maybe it stiffens the front up as well?) Not a big fan of butchering my crash protection for an intercooler, but if it's still safeish, I may do it
Damn these FMIC's, I'm starting to wish I'd gone for an STI top mount again (I was umming and arring for about two weeks, looking for a top mount and then I finally went and bought a FMIC and literally hours after I placed my order someone offered me a top mount)...
17 June 2007, 05:39 PM
#5
Scooby Regular
Well I don't know about on the newage, but on my v4 classic the cross piece stays in place and you just hang the FMIC off it. That's an autobahn88 and there was a fair bit of metal I had to take out to get it to fit...
18 June 2007, 09:21 PM
#7
Henrik,
Give Neilo a PM, he had my standard JDM crossmember off me as he was having the same problem.
Which is, that the UK crossmember (ringed in Yellow) has a huge bit at the bottom of it. All you need to the is the bit in RED along the top, to hold the top bumper section in place.
The bit in green, is the part that we had to trim on mine.
The Black bar on mine replaces this completely as you have guessed.
This is my original JDM bumper bar (and dirty garage).
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19 June 2007, 06:14 AM
#8
Henrik,
Give Neilo a PM, he had my standard JDM crossmember off me as he was having the same problem.
Which is, that the UK crossmember (ringed in Yellow) has a huge bit at the bottom of it. All you need to the is the bit in RED along the top, to hold the top bumper section in place.
The bit in green, is the part that we had to trim on mine.
The Black bar on mine replaces this completely as you have guessed.
This is my original JDM bumper bar (and dirty garage).
I'll just get the angle grinder out and go to work on it, I think... Famous last words, but what's the worst than can happen, eh?
19 June 2007, 11:22 AM
#9
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Have you thought about insurance implications in the event of a front ender..!??
The cross member looks like an integral part of the front end crumple zone. It would spread the force of an impact along both 'chassis rails'. Cutting it could have major implications for structural integrity IMHO.
There's quite a bit of material in that piece, for a reason..!
Another thought, this could be one of the things that makes the NA cars chassis something like 200% stiffer than the classic.
The cross member looks like an integral part of the front end crumple zone. It would spread the force of an impact along both 'chassis rails'. Cutting it could have major implications for structural integrity IMHO.
There's quite a bit of material in that piece, for a reason..!
Another thought, this could be one of the things that makes the NA cars chassis something like 200% stiffer than the classic.
19 June 2007, 11:42 AM
#10
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I'm in the same situ at the moment too.
I wwas thinking once the FMIC was fitted, could you not weld in a couple of extra strengthening bars? (similar to the JDM bar)
Looking at the JDM bar agaianst the UK bar its doesnt look as if the impact would save much anyway?
Anyone selling a JDM bar for a newage?
S!
I wwas thinking once the FMIC was fitted, could you not weld in a couple of extra strengthening bars? (similar to the JDM bar)
Looking at the JDM bar agaianst the UK bar its doesnt look as if the impact would save much anyway?
Anyone selling a JDM bar for a newage?
S!
19 June 2007, 11:57 AM
#11
Have you thought about insurance implications in the event of a front ender..!??
The cross member looks like an integral part of the front end crumple zone. It would spread the force of an impact along both 'chassis rails'. Cutting it could have major implications for structural integrity IMHO.
There's quite a bit of material in that piece, for a reason..!
Another thought, this could be one of the things that makes the NA cars chassis something like 200% stiffer than the classic.
The cross member looks like an integral part of the front end crumple zone. It would spread the force of an impact along both 'chassis rails'. Cutting it could have major implications for structural integrity IMHO.
There's quite a bit of material in that piece, for a reason..!
Another thought, this could be one of the things that makes the NA cars chassis something like 200% stiffer than the classic.
Really, I suppose I'd feel a bit stupid if I was in a front ender and hurt myself or someone else just because i fitted a fmic and cut some safety bar...
What annoys me a bit is that the site where I bought it from said that no modification of the cross member was required, but clearly it is...
20 June 2007, 12:00 PM
#13
No, unfortunately not... I was wrapping headers yesterday Now got really itchy fingers (even though I used gloves).
Had a quick look, and it looks incredibly tight behind the cross member, as in, the radiator will have to move back the whole thickness of the intercooler.
What do you think about having an intercooler straight in front of the radiator? Perhaps by moving the radiator too far in, it will pick up too much heat from the engine to be effective, at least with the additional strain of having the fmic in front of it (roughly speaking, i think the intercooler will cover half the radiator).
I'm sure it's possible to solve somehow, but I think I need a welder... Depending on how my auctions on ebay go at the moment, I might get one and have a play with it. Even if I was to modify the front member to have the intercooler in it, I'd need a welder anyway so that I could strengthen it up enough again.
Then of course, there's the consideration that if the cross member is in the way of the intercooler, the intercooler will not have the same air flow to it (well, unless the air still gets up behind the cross member, but i think this is unlikely as the gap between cross member and intercooler would be like a couple of cm max).
Another solution might be to modify the core itself so that it fits underneath the cross member, but that requires welding aluminium which requires a tig welder, which is a lot of wonga. Also, the core would end up a lot smaller so may not be worth the hassle.
As always with me and cars, progress is slow.
Now got really itchy fingers (even though I used gloves).Had a quick look, and it looks incredibly tight behind the cross member, as in, the radiator will have to move back the whole thickness of the intercooler.
What do you think about having an intercooler straight in front of the radiator? Perhaps by moving the radiator too far in, it will pick up too much heat from the engine to be effective, at least with the additional strain of having the fmic in front of it (roughly speaking, i think the intercooler will cover half the radiator).
I'm sure it's possible to solve somehow, but I think I need a welder... Depending on how my auctions on ebay go at the moment, I might get one and have a play with it. Even if I was to modify the front member to have the intercooler in it, I'd need a welder anyway so that I could strengthen it up enough again.
Then of course, there's the consideration that if the cross member is in the way of the intercooler, the intercooler will not have the same air flow to it (well, unless the air still gets up behind the cross member, but i think this is unlikely as the gap between cross member and intercooler would be like a couple of cm max).
Another solution might be to modify the core itself so that it fits underneath the cross member, but that requires welding aluminium which requires a tig welder, which is a lot of wonga. Also, the core would end up a lot smaller so may not be worth the hassle.
As always with me and cars, progress is slow.
20 June 2007, 12:04 PM
#14
(i.e, even if the modified uk bar is "safer" than the JDM, it would still probably cost more to insure than the JDM purely because it's modified)
20 June 2007, 12:43 PM
#15
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^^^ So how do people get away with having a FMIC with their insurance and not have problems?
I need to sort my insurance out soon, renewal time!
S!
I need to sort my insurance out soon, renewal time!
S!
20 June 2007, 01:58 PM
#17
My current insururers have 'APS Front Mount Intercooler' listed as one of the modifications.
Although the original JDM bar is lighter/smaller, they make up the differeence with a piece of polestyrene, about the same shape as the boxed section on Henriks uk bar.
* The APS is actually a very large and heavy peice of kit and is more substantial than the original bumper bar anyway. It would be more worried about damaging any lorries that I hit
Looking at the pictures, the main UK/JDM differences are that the JDM has a 30mm rolled tube at that point. Personally, I think two layers of 25mm Box section instead would be stronger.
I will PM Neilo and see if he can explain how he got around it all.
20 June 2007, 05:36 PM
#19
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For what it's worth I felt the same as you; that piece of steel looks important so the FMIC is now slung underneath and sticks out of the bottom of the car. This looked naff but a splitter attached to the bottom of the bumper evened it all up so the bottom of the car is a straight line again.
20 June 2007, 06:36 PM
#20
For what it's worth I felt the same as you; that piece of steel looks important so the FMIC is now slung underneath and sticks out of the bottom of the car. This looked naff but a splitter attached to the bottom of the bumper evened it all up so the bottom of the car is a straight line again.
If you have, could you email it to me (Click on my name to the left of this post and select "send email") and I'll host it for you (unless you have photobucket etc).
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