Front mount..... lag
15 April 2007, 07:10 PM
#1
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 403
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Front mount..... lag
Well the front mounts on and the apexi induction. Took the car out today for the first time and its awful. OK, the car has been mapped but not for the fmic/ apexi. 1 bar at 4300rpm, mapped for 1.4 peak, didn't take it any further than 1 bar, just my luck something would go wrong. Will this get sorted when it goes in for a map tweek? Is this normal? My mate put a fmic and induction on his without any issues. Is that because its standard apart from decat.
cheers
cheers
15 April 2007, 07:20 PM
#2
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: South Wales, Scoobless, Type R is gone!
Posts: 3,618
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I found this when i fitted my Autobahn88 FMIC, made the car much slower, so i fitted a bigger turbo and got it remapped, this improved things but, still feels quite laggy on gear changes.
Going to be changing it for a Hybrid GT spec next week in a hope to reduce the lag as it has 15% better flow rates.
Going to be changing it for a Hybrid GT spec next week in a hope to reduce the lag as it has 15% better flow rates.
15 April 2007, 07:39 PM
#4
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Gallifrey, but known to travel the universe
Posts: 194
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
By fitting a FMIC you have increased the charge area, thus there is now more space for the turbo to pressurize with air, hence the lag!
Simple!
Simple!
15 April 2007, 07:39 PM
#5
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Herts
Posts: 1,746
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
you will need to get it mapped again with the FMIC, as it will make the car run very lean !!! about 25% lean 
i currently have a HKS FMIC with a VF35. the spool is quick enough for everyday driving
i currently have a HKS FMIC with a VF35. the spool is quick enough for everyday driving
16 April 2007, 03:41 AM
#7
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Herts
Posts: 1,746
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Trending Topics
16 April 2007, 08:13 AM
#8
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Manchester ish
Posts: 18,547
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Personally I would check for air leaks. I have had similar with a monster fmic. mapped for 1.2 bar, max I am seeing on the power fc is .90 bar (was much worse than that originally)
16 April 2007, 01:10 PM
#9
I have had my Autobahn88 fmic on now for around a year [v5 type r].
When I initially fitted it, it was with the std. ecu and it felt awful compared to the tmic, since then I've had a Gems ecu fitted and mapped to the fmic .
From the engines point of view... no matter how hard its driven or hot ambient temps are, there's no det/knocklink activity. With the tmic, the knocklink would light up after a few mins. of WOT... But don't know how much this is due to the fmic or the mapping as I drove steady with the fmic till mapped with the Gems.
From the driving point of view... I,m still missing the feeling the car had with the tmic
the throttle cable now feels like its made from elastic and although the car has more power/torque now since being mapped, it is no where near as good on anything other than full throttle. also getting some surge from the std. vf28.
I've been toying with the idea of a bigger turbo... one with similar spool to the vf28 [so as not to add additional lag] but shifts a much bigger volume of air to more quickly fill the pipework, the md321h seems a good candidate but can't help thinking it would be even better on a nice big tmic or even a good chargecooler setup
Wonder how many have actually gone back to a tmic?
The Litchfield type25 runs 400+ with a warranty on a tmic.
Andy F has a spec c with a 2.5, 380bhp, 420+ lbs.ft. and tmic. for the road.
Steve Simpson has similar.
tmic for the road, fmic for the track IMO.
When I initially fitted it, it was with the std. ecu and it felt awful compared to the tmic, since then I've had a Gems ecu fitted and mapped to the fmic .
From the engines point of view... no matter how hard its driven or hot ambient temps are, there's no det/knocklink activity. With the tmic, the knocklink would light up after a few mins. of WOT... But don't know how much this is due to the fmic or the mapping as I drove steady with the fmic till mapped with the Gems.
From the driving point of view... I,m still missing the feeling the car had with the tmic
the throttle cable now feels like its made from elastic and although the car has more power/torque now since being mapped, it is no where near as good on anything other than full throttle. also getting some surge from the std. vf28.I've been toying with the idea of a bigger turbo... one with similar spool to the vf28 [so as not to add additional lag] but shifts a much bigger volume of air to more quickly fill the pipework, the md321h seems a good candidate but can't help thinking it would be even better on a nice big tmic or even a good chargecooler setup
Wonder how many have actually gone back to a tmic?The Litchfield type25 runs 400+ with a warranty on a tmic.
Andy F has a spec c with a 2.5, 380bhp, 420+ lbs.ft. and tmic. for the road.
Steve Simpson has similar.
tmic for the road, fmic for the track IMO.
16 April 2007, 07:45 PM
#12
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Edinburgh (ish)
Posts: 8,089
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have had my Autobahn88 fmic on now for around a year [v5 type r].
When I initially fitted it, it was with the std. ecu and it felt awful compared to the tmic, since then I've had a Gems ecu fitted and mapped to the fmic .
From the engines point of view... no matter how hard its driven or hot ambient temps are, there's no det/knocklink activity. With the tmic, the knocklink would light up after a few mins. of WOT... But don't know how much this is due to the fmic or the mapping as I drove steady with the fmic till mapped with the Gems.
From the driving point of view... I,m still missing the feeling the car had with the tmic the throttle cable now feels like its made from elastic and although the car has more power/torque now since being mapped, it is no where near as good on anything other than full throttle. also getting some surge from the std. vf28.
I've been toying with the idea of a bigger turbo... one with similar spool to the vf28 [so as not to add additional lag] but shifts a much bigger volume of air to more quickly fill the pipework, the md321h seems a good candidate but can't help thinking it would be even better on a nice big tmic or even a good chargecooler setup Wonder how many have actually gone back to a tmic?
The Litchfield type25 runs 400+ with a warranty on a tmic.
Andy F has a spec c with a 2.5, 380bhp, 420+ lbs.ft. and tmic. for the road.
Steve Simpson has similar.
tmic for the road, fmic for the track IMO.
When I initially fitted it, it was with the std. ecu and it felt awful compared to the tmic, since then I've had a Gems ecu fitted and mapped to the fmic .
From the engines point of view... no matter how hard its driven or hot ambient temps are, there's no det/knocklink activity. With the tmic, the knocklink would light up after a few mins. of WOT... But don't know how much this is due to the fmic or the mapping as I drove steady with the fmic till mapped with the Gems.
From the driving point of view... I,m still missing the feeling the car had with the tmic
the throttle cable now feels like its made from elastic and although the car has more power/torque now since being mapped, it is no where near as good on anything other than full throttle. also getting some surge from the std. vf28.I've been toying with the idea of a bigger turbo... one with similar spool to the vf28 [so as not to add additional lag] but shifts a much bigger volume of air to more quickly fill the pipework, the md321h seems a good candidate but can't help thinking it would be even better on a nice big tmic or even a good chargecooler setup
Wonder how many have actually gone back to a tmic?The Litchfield type25 runs 400+ with a warranty on a tmic.
Andy F has a spec c with a 2.5, 380bhp, 420+ lbs.ft. and tmic. for the road.
Steve Simpson has similar.
tmic for the road, fmic for the track IMO.
16 April 2007, 07:51 PM
#13
You cannot compare the performance of the latest OE TMICs with those of earlier models.
A well designed FMIC will not add appreciable lag if the car is properly mapped.
Even with mild tuning on Classic cars it is quite easy to exceed 70 deg.C induction charge temperature measured at the throttle body. If you doubt this and have a Classic model just fit an ACT guage.
If you calculate the additional air volume from an FMIC installation over the OE setup and compare it with the volume of air consumed by the engine on boost you will see that the effect will be marginal.
A well designed FMIC will not add appreciable lag if the car is properly mapped.
Even with mild tuning on Classic cars it is quite easy to exceed 70 deg.C induction charge temperature measured at the throttle body. If you doubt this and have a Classic model just fit an ACT guage.
If you calculate the additional air volume from an FMIC installation over the OE setup and compare it with the volume of air consumed by the engine on boost you will see that the effect will be marginal.
17 April 2007, 05:43 PM
#15
You cannot compare the performance of the latest OE TMICs with those of earlier models.
A well designed FMIC will not add appreciable lag if the car is properly mapped.
Even with mild tuning on Classic cars it is quite easy to exceed 70 deg.C induction charge temperature measured at the throttle body. If you doubt this and have a Classic model just fit an ACT guage.
If you calculate the additional air volume from an FMIC installation over the OE setup and compare it with the volume of air consumed by the engine on boost you will see that the effect will be marginal.
A well designed FMIC will not add appreciable lag if the car is properly mapped.
Even with mild tuning on Classic cars it is quite easy to exceed 70 deg.C induction charge temperature measured at the throttle body. If you doubt this and have a Classic model just fit an ACT guage.
If you calculate the additional air volume from an FMIC installation over the OE setup and compare it with the volume of air consumed by the engine on boost you will see that the effect will be marginal.
do you mean to say, that even running with one of the latest OE TMIC and associated hardware, a Classic cannot produce similar thermal efficiency to a New Age car?
The Scoobyclinic Classic 25B runs a large Hyperflow TMIC with around 480/460 IIRC from its 2.5L
18 April 2007, 08:50 AM
#16
Subaru Tuning Specialist
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: 7.74 @179 mph 1/4 mile - road legal
Posts: 6,654
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
I'd recommend the OE Sti 7/8/9 intercooler to anyone way before a FMIC.
As mentioned above my 01 Spec C with a 2.5 short motor is running 440bhp and 480 lbft torque. This is still running the std Sti7 tmic and totally standard non ported headers.
The set up is very low lag and ideal for the road. Only if I was intending doing regular track stuff where you can be flat out for 10 laps or so would I consider a fmic.
Andy
As mentioned above my 01 Spec C with a 2.5 short motor is running 440bhp and 480 lbft torque. This is still running the std Sti7 tmic and totally standard non ported headers.
The set up is very low lag and ideal for the road. Only if I was intending doing regular track stuff where you can be flat out for 10 laps or so would I consider a fmic.
Andy
18 April 2007, 04:27 PM
#18
Scooby Regular
I'd recommend the OE Sti 7/8/9 intercooler to anyone way before a FMIC.
As mentioned above my 01 Spec C with a 2.5 short motor is running 440bhp and 480 lbft torque. This is still running the std Sti7 tmic and totally standard non ported headers.
The set up is very low lag and ideal for the road. Only if I was intending doing regular track stuff where you can be flat out for 10 laps or so would I consider a fmic.
Andy
As mentioned above my 01 Spec C with a 2.5 short motor is running 440bhp and 480 lbft torque. This is still running the std Sti7 tmic and totally standard non ported headers.
The set up is very low lag and ideal for the road. Only if I was intending doing regular track stuff where you can be flat out for 10 laps or so would I consider a fmic.
Andy
18 April 2007, 06:37 PM
#21
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Barnsley
Posts: 1,006
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
See here under "What is turbo lag (and how do I avoid it)?"
Turbochargers 101
Damo
Last edited by Damocell; 18 April 2007 at 06:40 PM.
18 April 2007, 09:00 PM
#22
Subaru Tuning Specialist
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: 7.74 @179 mph 1/4 mile - road legal
Posts: 6,654
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
You're right Damo, they are 2 different things although they are often closely linked. The spoolpoint or boost threshold on an FMIC is less likely to change, its the time to spool up when coming off/on boost that can feel a bit delayed.
FWIW my race car is going back on a TMIC this year
Borat - I am currently running a MD321T which for its size spools very well, not quite as quick as a 20G which on a 2.5 spools like a td04 on a 2.0
S5oob - No reason other than there is less room to fit a big TMIC on some of the earlier classics. I have not done back to back tests on the same car with the APS/Hyperflow so can't comment on the difference compared to the Sti unit.
Andy
FWIW my race car is going back on a TMIC this year
Borat - I am currently running a MD321T which for its size spools very well, not quite as quick as a 20G which on a 2.5 spools like a td04 on a 2.0
S5oob - No reason other than there is less room to fit a big TMIC on some of the earlier classics. I have not done back to back tests on the same car with the APS/Hyperflow so can't comment on the difference compared to the Sti unit.
Andy
18 April 2007, 09:19 PM
#23
I'm seriously considering going back to a TMIC after fitting a FMIC. The throttle response is far less crisp on the FMIC - akin to having the throttle connected with a piece of elastic! It spools up just as quickly in the rev range - it's just that gear changes at high revs (ie while in the boost range) result in around half a second delay between planting the throttle and the car accelerating again. Not a massive effect, but enough to be noticable and to diminish driveability. It's probably worse as I've been used to driving cars fitted with throttle bodies (instant response), but this is a pure road car and I'm willing to sacrifice a little bit of ultimate power for more driveability
Last edited by lunar tick; 18 April 2007 at 09:24 PM.
18 April 2007, 09:36 PM
#24
As long ago as 1990 I recall an article in the first edition of Fast Car (it was informative and factual at the time), which discussed induction length. It stated for normal road use it was vital to keep induction length to a minimum on turbocharged cars. It also showed a photo of an old Nissan 280zx with an aftermarket turbo conversion and stated with an exclamation mark that the induction length was over two metres. I am sure in an Impreza the length is probably even longer.
19 April 2007, 11:33 AM
#25
Moderator
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: The Terry Crews of moderation. P P P P P P POWER!!
Posts: 18,687
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok, I'm a bit confused. I was thinking of going down the FMIC route and would appreciate some advice.
I have a UK classic running 320bhp, which I understand is about the limit of the std intercooler. I was thinking of upgrading to a FMIC as my understanding was that this would result in significantly lower charge temps than even the V7,8,9 TMICs and deal with sustained boost better. I also thought that whatever TMIC you go for, heatsoak will still be an issue when sitting in traffic owing to its position. I was informed that any increase in lag from a decent set up like Harvery's Hybrid would be negligable.
So, would I just be better off getting a V7, 8, 9 intercooler then?
Ns04
I have a UK classic running 320bhp, which I understand is about the limit of the std intercooler. I was thinking of upgrading to a FMIC as my understanding was that this would result in significantly lower charge temps than even the V7,8,9 TMICs and deal with sustained boost better. I also thought that whatever TMIC you go for, heatsoak will still be an issue when sitting in traffic owing to its position. I was informed that any increase in lag from a decent set up like Harvery's Hybrid would be negligable.
So, would I just be better off getting a V7, 8, 9 intercooler then?
Ns04
19 April 2007, 11:56 AM
#26
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Cheltenham
Posts: 274
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Will an STi V7/8/9 intercooler go straight on an 05MY WRX? I'm planning to replace the turbo and get a remap, but I've seen STi intercoolers going cheap on eBay 
If I could put one of those on before getting the turbo fitted I guess I could get most benefit out of the turbo upgrade at little cost. I'd need to be able to fit the intercooler myself tho. Any advice gratefully received
D
If I could put one of those on before getting the turbo fitted I guess I could get most benefit out of the turbo upgrade at little cost. I'd need to be able to fit the intercooler myself tho. Any advice gratefully receivedD
19 April 2007, 12:21 PM
#27
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Edinburgh (ish)
Posts: 8,089
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Will an STi V7/8/9 intercooler go straight on an 05MY WRX? I'm planning to replace the turbo and get a remap, but I've seen STi intercoolers going cheap on eBay If I could put one of those on before getting the turbo fitted I guess I could get most benefit out of the turbo upgrade at little cost. I'd need to be able to fit the intercooler myself tho. Any advice gratefully received
D
If I could put one of those on before getting the turbo fitted I guess I could get most benefit out of the turbo upgrade at little cost. I'd need to be able to fit the intercooler myself tho. Any advice gratefully receivedD
Andy
19 April 2007, 12:29 PM
#28
New Scooby and DaiJones - I have an STI8 intercooler and associated fittings here for sale. PM me if you're interested. New Scooby - having made the switch to FMIC myself, I've found the throttle response to be rather disappointing. Having said that, there's a lot of subjectivity and I know others here are perfectly happy with FMIC throttle response. However, unless you intend on doing trackdays and/or traffic light grand prixs, I think an uprated top mount offers most of the performance with more driveability
19 April 2007, 12:32 PM
#29
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Lancashire & District Subaru Owners
Posts: 1,335
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Here's a good guide on fitting STI8 TMIC to a classic. I should imagine the fitment back onto a newage would be very similar, just ignore the bits where they needed to modify to get it on. Apparently two big screwdrivers and brute strength are the key to getting it seperated from the throttle body pipe - and heating it up to make it pliable is the key to getting it back on.
https://www.scoobynet.com/projects-4...0-classic.html
https://www.scoobynet.com/projects-4...0-classic.html
19 April 2007, 12:43 PM
#30
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Edinburgh (ish)
Posts: 8,089
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Here's a good guide on fitting STI8 TMIC to a classic. I should imagine the fitment back onto a newage would be very similar, just ignore the bits where they needed to modify to get it on. Apparently two big screwdrivers and brute strength are the key to getting it seperated from the throttle body pipe - and heating it up to make it pliable is the key to getting it back on.
https://www.scoobynet.com/projects-4...0-classic.html
https://www.scoobynet.com/projects-4...0-classic.html