john banks

Knockhill today. T-uk's [previously gutless] MY00.

MY99 ECU with Dawes and decat 15.5 PSI - no knock >=9% CO intake temps up to 43 C after 5 laps and not climbing any higher after each lap

Prodrive ECU with Dawes at 16-16.5 PSI - no knock >=9% CO intake temps up to 47 C after 5 laps and not climbing any higher after each lap

Prodrive ECU with Dawes at 17-18 PSI - no knock >=9% CO intake temps as before up to 5 laps, thereafter over next few laps increased to 52 C peak (still fell depending on which part of circuit, but climbing by 1 deg C per lap). After 52 C cooling lap. Keeping up quite happily on the straights with unmodded P1.

I said no knock throughout, but there were two episodes on changing gear where we saw big red, but under power, never more than 2 greens.

Boost control with the Dawes was perfect, and there were no silly peaks at all.

In the summer >17 PSI with TD04L and TMIC on track for more than 5 laps could result in high intake temps, but today this seems to be the sweet spot depending on how many laps you stay out for.

Reassuring that at 17-18 PSI being absolutely hammered on the track, and I mean really hammered all was safe enough up to five laps which bodes well for road use.

[Edited by john banks - 3/17/2002 6:08:47 PM]

[Edited by john banks - 3/18/2002 10:21:09 AM]

Moles Dad

John, what was the ambient temp?

Did you have any egt?

Cheers,MD.

john banks

No EGT. 10 degrees ambient.

The message we took from this is if you stay out more than 5 laps at Knockhill at over 17-18 PSI even at 10 degrees C the temps start to climb with factory TD04L and TMIC.

Also that for track work, the standard ECU with boost controller should give as good results as a PPP with boost controller because the extra boost the PPP allows you because of higher fuel cut results in higher temps. But running 16.5-17 with a fuel cut at 17-17.5 seems a bit close.

But folk said this happens with the standard car unmodded too, but our observations at 15.5 PSI on a relatively cool day today did not show this. The summer heat may be a different matter.

My car for the road then stays at 18.5 PSI for the winter/spring, and by the summer I will be monitoring temps and knock on the road and track, and will seriously consider allowing the controller to trigger I/C water spray which I will probably fit and lower the boost in reponse to increased temps, or knock if I can get the uC reading the sensor.

Nice to see that the Dawes does not result in evil boost control on the track.

Paul_H

Interesting...and sounds like good news for running 17-18 PSI on the road doesn't it, because road use has to easier on the motor than track use. Right?

john banks

Yes indeed

Note the 52 was only a peak - at other parts of the track (1 min 5-10secs lap time typically) it was 33 C - surprisingly dynamic.

Would rise at the start of a straight and midway through would drop again as the airflow over 100mph was obviously good for it

This boy *really* pushes the car hard and is sideways at any opportunity - maximum fun, possibly not minimum lap times. I cannot see anyone being able to push it anywhere near like this hard on the road and still live

[Edited by john banks - 3/17/2002 8:59:25 PM]

Trout...

John.

you probably expected me to pop-up on this one. I have a slight problem with this - five laps is not enough. Before I worked out all the variables I used to get very stable running of my Linked car for five-eight laps at Donington - then there would be a significant rise in knock and boost spiking between laps eight and ten.

Also - how were you measuring CO - do you have a lambda sensor with temperature compensation - once my sensor gets above about 800C EGT the sensor 'leans out'.

Cheers,

Trout

Moles Dad

Thanks for that John, It has given me a bit of food for thought re summer temps and boost...might have to set my EVC low setting down and use it for summer mode (?) It is usually set for the wife on "shopping" mode (0.65 bar). LOL.

Cheers, MD.

john banks

MD do you not run a FMIC though?

Trout, maybe my post wasn't very clear, sorry. I wasn't counting laps but it probably was about 10 on the first two runs where the temps didn't go over 47 deg C. On the third run we did about 5-7 IIRC. T-uk can you remember or were you having too much fun?

Lambdas were just measured off the lambda link - SUPER RICH is the only conclusion I can draw. Hence I say >=9% CO because that is the last light. If it got hotter it would read lean because of the increased temperature, but it never dropped from 9% at WOT full boost on any of the runs. Did the lambda sensor not overheat? Perhaps, but this was an out and out boost thrash and I don't see how you could try any harder.

Perhaps we need EGT as well? It will look like Knight Rider in the cabins

[Edited by john banks - 3/17/2002 10:02:41 PM]

Hoppy

JB, very interesting post as always You seem to have enjoyed yourself. Were you watching the track or your gauges ?

Forgive me if this is a stupid question, but inlet temps are obviously crucial. Do high inlet temps relate directly to high EGT?

If not, what is the relationship? The reason I ask is that I've got an Exhaust Gas Temperature gauge on order, mainly because I hope that it will give me critical information on the true state of my engine on hot track days. Will it do that reliably?

Another interesting thing is that, if I understand you correctly, you are saying that inlet temps decreased with increased speed over 100mph. Which would suggest that your TMIC was working fine at high speed. Any comments on that? And you appear to be looking at water-spray in favour of a FMIC for reducing inlet temps.

Thanks,

Richard.

PS Glad you had a good day. I'm still pi55ed off that Button was robbed of a podium by suspension failure two laps from the end. How cruel is that ?

john banks

The TMIC seemed to work very well at high speed in these coolish conditions, but Knockhill doesn't let you get much over 105mph. T-uk was driving not me I was just holding on.

Don't know about EGTs. There has to be some correlation, but there seem to be many other things that affect EGTs such as timing, richness, octane, exhaust etc.

T-uk

I think the MY99 ECU (15psi)peaked at 43 John,the rest I fully agree with.I should also add that when we fitted the PPP ECU,we went for petrol giving the ECU 20+ road miles.

we were doing 8 to 10 fast laps each session + warm up/down laps(1 each).the 8 lapper was with the PPP ECU at 17.5psi and I stopped as soon as it went over 50.this was as fast up the straight as an decatted+dawes evo7.we never use 5th at K/hill so in top boost will be slightly higher.normally when I get my car side ways it runs out of "puff",yesterday I could hold the slide so much longer ,costing me time but the grin factor was high.

JamesS

EGT will be directly linked with intake temperature AND other factors such as AFR and spark. However EGT is the one to watch as it will give the earliest warning of an in-cyclinder problem. Wether you can react quickly enough to do anything about it is another thing......

john banks

Thanks T-uk, I think you fried my brain with all the sliding. Certainly this morning feels like yesterday was a long day hanging on, but that might have been the wine last night

ScoobyJawa

John & T-UK

Nice work guys This sort of info with the dawes is just what some have been waiting for and it sounds quite reasonable too

Cheers
Neil.

The_Gza

I'll second that!

I was also out in t-uk's car doing the temp and knock monitoring thing, and second the measurements detailed above. Well as much as I could manage whilst laughing at the ludicrously sideways antics

All excellent fun though and I enjoyed watching t-uk harrass more exotic machinery all day long. Think the weight reduction due to brain removal might have helped in this department though...

Mkhan

John

I have a dawes and took it off as I heard that it was unsafe to use it on track and long burns ...

Is this true ...... I noticed you only did 5 five laps on your test is this because you felt that was enough for your car inorder for it to be safe?

What about high speed driving is it safe to drive above 130mph with the dawes on holding 1.1 boost..

btw the above figure is when I am driving on airfields :wink:

john banks

We did up to 10 laps - I only report the temps after five laps, or from when they looked stable. After 10 laps more than just the intake temps will be getting high! I frankly would be exhausted after many more the way T-uk tracks it I can't see the tyres/brakes/gearbox/clutch whatever also standing up. Overall I think the word I am looking for is "balance". As a package, I don't think the engine is the weak point, and it seems sensible not to go over 10 laps anyway to me - it is not after all a race car, so not designed to be thrashed continually without bits falling off.

T-uk

I was one of the people,that was concearned about running a Dawes on track to be honest.the way in which it can increase boost,hold boost through the revs and a few more pounds up top,had made me decide not to run it until intake/egt temps could be monitored.fortunately someone had a spare probe and Cosie Convert had a display(cheers to you both),this,with the lambdalink and knocklink,which I ran for a period pre-dawes,to get used to standard control values and then for a few weeks with Dawes at different settings,made me decide just to go for it.

my only regret is that we did not try the MY99 ECU at slightly more boost .we had been building up in tiny amounts all morning,starting at 13psi and slowly worked upto 15.5.when we stopped for lunch,it seemed an ideal opportunity to change to the Prodrive ECU and go for a gentle drive to get petrol and top up the millers booster.on returning we started again from 16psi.this time,instead of building up slowly I wound the Dawes in a fair bit.18psi and the biggest grin of the day,until john told me on lap 7/8 that we had hit 52 C.we had decided that a peak of 50 C was the point we were stopping if all else seemed okay.obviously I would like to have stayed lower but on the standard tmic and turbo we had to be realistic.the rest of the day I ran 16.5ish psi and still made good progress without going over 47 C although loosing out slightly on the short K/hill straights to the likes of the P1/EVO7.

so what did I learn.
the dawes at 13psi on a standard(MY99) ECU still seemed better than previous track days with standard boost control(MY00 ECU).for my style of driving the fun was starting at 15psi.I think that if we had tried the standard ECU at 16.5psi,performance would have been very similar to PPP ECU at same boost on track,on road,with a slightly higher fuel cut,the PPP ECU at 18psi is far superior for daily use.coming back from the petrol station,the "on boost" performance in top was excellent.

also,when Sam gets to grips with the EVO7 and sorts out it's straight line speed,we're all dead.the way that thing gets the power down out of the bends is just not fair [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img] .

T-uk

meant to ask,

has anyone else seen big red on knocklink at a rushed gearchange?.it only happened twice and a few folk said it was normal on a quick change.

Chris,there was no weight saving measures,my brain was safely tucked away in the glovebox .

DJNormski

I am going to ask a really silly question but please bear with me.......
Would the TD04 outlet temps from the Turbo be higher than a VF23 when trying to push 18PSI???
I think the answer to this is yes, in which case one could conclude that the TD04 has been matched to the intercooler hardware running at a much lower 16.24PSI (max PPP boost level 1.12bar) and not suitable for running at higher boost! Yes a FMIC would reduce your cylinder temps/improve charge density and therefore knock reduced (nice for engine), but the TD04 will still be the weakest link!
My point is, regardless of spool up/ lag trade offs, by using a better spec'd Turbo i.e. designed to run at higher boost pressures, you are less dependant upon intercooler efficiency and fuel additives.

Norm.

john banks

On track I was passengering also in a VF23 car (with same TMIC) and it was running temps in the low 40s from what I saw running 19PSI boost - so 10 degrees cooler at 1-1.5 PSI more. Agree the TD04 is the weakest link. Some find the standard car starts to put temps up after several laps even at standard boost and find it retards after several laps unless decatted.

I think the main point is that these are not track cars, not that the TD04L is woefully inadequate. And we were quite conservatice stopping when the temps reached 52 C. Some would go higher - there was no knock. But I think if you got the temps down with a big turbo or FMIC you would move the limit to another component? As it was it did not feel like the engine was the weak point- the tyre and brakes I am sure were struggling just as much! For road use having full boost low down is nice and I am sure the intercooler copes much better on road rather than track. I am quite happy to be running 18-18.5 PSI in Scotland on the road when it is cool, and it is pushing hard from 2500 RPM. But I will be watching temps and knock as summer approaches.

My main reason for being reluctant to change the turbo now is the gearbox rather than anything else. The big turbo boys seem to eat them.

Floyd

iTrader: (9)

John

Where do you measure I/L temps? Is it by inserting a thermocouple into the short tube between the i/c and manifold?

One tip I heard about i/c water spray if your going to do it, watch out for the gear linkage below it. Apparently some people (with STi's) had selection problems due to lubricant being washed away after too much water spray. I personally can't see what the difference would be to spray and normal rain but there you go! Perhaps a cover over the linkage just in case?

F

john banks

Yes Floyd. Thanks for the tip.

Floyd

iTrader: (9)

John, and the answer to my question please?

F

john banks

That was the yes bit - in between ic and throttle

Floyd

iTrader: (9)

Opps, i see now.

ta
F

Cosie Convert

John

A quote from the Powerengineering web site that you may find of interest >>>>>>>

"If the CO percentage is too low the combustion burn temperature will rise and cause engine meltdown under certain conditions. If the CO is too high then power is lost very quickly. Broadly speaking 4% CO and below is too lean for safety on a turbo car and 8% and above is too rich and will lose power. An Impreza 22B we had on the rolling road ran over 10% CO (off the gauge). When we reduced it to 7% CO it increased power by 20 bhp. "

Mixture tweak on the cards ?????

john banks

Maybe about 17 PSI and about 7-8% CO = Evo 7 chaser (for now )