knock + lamda sensor questions
22 February 2000, 04:39 PM
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Have my car in for diagnostic testing at the moment - '99 sti v5 with SS backbox and downpipe.
since I have been suffering increased fuel consumption and a LOT of soot
+ pops+bangs (more than usual).
I was expecting either knock or lamda (Oxygen) sensor codes in ecu memory but
only the latter were found - this is probably explained by recent downpipe fitting - I presume the sensor
suffered during handling or got oil/grease/gasket-sealant on it leading to an early demise.
Select Monitor shows no error codes for knock at all.
two questions then...
1.) Does the absence of ECU error codes for knock mean that all the scare stories about
sti 5s on 97 RON are a load of hokey?
2.) What real harm does having a faulty O2 sensor do if any?
opening up a can of worms I know - but think we need more debate on the above.
cheers,
Paul W
since I have been suffering increased fuel consumption and a LOT of soot
+ pops+bangs (more than usual).
I was expecting either knock or lamda (Oxygen) sensor codes in ecu memory but
only the latter were found - this is probably explained by recent downpipe fitting - I presume the sensor
suffered during handling or got oil/grease/gasket-sealant on it leading to an early demise.
Select Monitor shows no error codes for knock at all.
two questions then...
1.) Does the absence of ECU error codes for knock mean that all the scare stories about
sti 5s on 97 RON are a load of hokey?
2.) What real harm does having a faulty O2 sensor do if any?
opening up a can of worms I know - but think we need more debate on the above.
cheers,
Paul W
22 February 2000, 05:06 PM
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Paul,
The ecu runs on the signals it gets from the lambda sensor. So if it's faulty, so is the information the ecu is uses.
It explains you running, and mpg problems. You need to replace it.
Just like engines vary slightly from car to car, so will the amount of knock. It sounds like you have been lucky, assuming you drive like the rest of the V5 owners. Checking with a set of "det cans" or a Knock Link, will confirm that no det is happening.
Mark.
The ecu runs on the signals it gets from the lambda sensor. So if it's faulty, so is the information the ecu is uses.
It explains you running, and mpg problems. You need to replace it.
Just like engines vary slightly from car to car, so will the amount of knock. It sounds like you have been lucky, assuming you drive like the rest of the V5 owners. Checking with a set of "det cans" or a Knock Link, will confirm that no det is happening.
Mark.
22 February 2000, 06:17 PM
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Paul,
as an advocate of the Check Engine Self Diagnosis (as Moray has kindly underlined
), I would advise you that even if the Knock Sensor that is used by the ECU has been triggered this is not stored in the ECU memory.
The code for the Knock Sensor in the ECU error codes refers to a failure in that circuit NOT to the fact that knock has been detected whilst running. On my car this is definately true as I have a Knock Link fitted, and when knock has occured, the Check Engine memory is clear.
One question for you, have you fitted any device such as some types of Air Fuel Regulators into the Lambda circuit - this could cause misreading of the sensor and result in ECU codes. (I had a similar problem in the MAF circuit).
Cheers,
Rannoch, soon to have no Check Engine to play with as I say a fond farewell to my ECU and welcome a new one
as an advocate of the Check Engine Self Diagnosis (as Moray has kindly underlined
), I would advise you that even if the Knock Sensor that is used by the ECU has been triggered this is not stored in the ECU memory.The code for the Knock Sensor in the ECU error codes refers to a failure in that circuit NOT to the fact that knock has been detected whilst running. On my car this is definately true as I have a Knock Link fitted, and when knock has occured, the Check Engine memory is clear.
One question for you, have you fitted any device such as some types of Air Fuel Regulators into the Lambda circuit - this could cause misreading of the sensor and result in ECU codes. (I had a similar problem in the MAF circuit).
Cheers,
Rannoch, soon to have no Check Engine to play with as I say a fond farewell to my ECU and welcome a new one
22 February 2000, 07:05 PM
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Since having my downpipe fitted I have also noticed a drop in fuel consumption. I also get the "Engine Check" light in when cruising down the motorway. This is a fault from the Oxygen sensor.
Bob
Bob
22 February 2000, 08:27 PM
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well this is HIGHLY INTERESTING to me !!!
My lambda sensor was well and truly knackered - this was only shown up when trying to use it to tune the Link. Its anyone's guess how long it was knackered for because NO ERROR CODES / CHECK ENGINE LIGHT !!!!
My lambda sensor was well and truly knackered - this was only shown up when trying to use it to tune the Link. Its anyone's guess how long it was knackered for because NO ERROR CODES / CHECK ENGINE LIGHT !!!!
22 February 2000, 09:49 PM
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Rannoch,
will have another check on the select monitor tomorrow with engine running - hopefully knock would show even if the ECU doesn't store this - kind of makes sense that only a sensor failure is picked up - since knock is an everyday occurrence (so to speak) the ecu should just adjust settings to take account of it.
will post more findings tomorrow
cheers,
Paul
[This message has been edited by pwebb (edited 22-02-2000).]
will have another check on the select monitor tomorrow with engine running - hopefully knock would show even if the ECU doesn't store this - kind of makes sense that only a sensor failure is picked up - since knock is an everyday occurrence (so to speak) the ecu should just adjust settings to take account of it.
will post more findings tomorrow
cheers,
Paul
[This message has been edited by pwebb (edited 22-02-2000).]
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22 February 2000, 11:34 PM
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Paul,
The reason your fuel economy has gone AWOL is due to a defective Lambda sensor. This will not be generating an output voltage which the ECU can sense... low voltage from the Lambda sensor means it's running lean, so the ECU increases fuelling to compensate, but of course it wasn't running lean in the first place. Get it changed.
Knocking is not considered an engine fault and will not be remembered by the ECU. it will merely reduce the ignition advance (and maybe boost) to control the knocking. Use a KnockLink or det cans to be sure what's going on.....
Cheers,
Pat.
The reason your fuel economy has gone AWOL is due to a defective Lambda sensor. This will not be generating an output voltage which the ECU can sense... low voltage from the Lambda sensor means it's running lean, so the ECU increases fuelling to compensate, but of course it wasn't running lean in the first place. Get it changed.
Knocking is not considered an engine fault and will not be remembered by the ECU. it will merely reduce the ignition advance (and maybe boost) to control the knocking. Use a KnockLink or det cans to be sure what's going on.....
Cheers,
Pat.
23 February 2000, 12:04 AM
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Rannoch,
You're just sensative because your compression ratio is too high!
Who are you getting to map your "new ecu"? I am curious because I drove an sti 5 with a link that hadn't been setup particularly well "very recently".
Moray
You're just sensative because your compression ratio is too high!
Who are you getting to map your "new ecu"? I am curious because I drove an sti 5 with a link that hadn't been setup particularly well "very recently".
Moray
23 February 2000, 09:59 PM
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Pat was nearly right - looking at the select monitor O2 trace - the voltage was going up ok but not dropping quick enough - took full 5 seconds to re-act after the throttle was released - thus mixture was staying too rich for a long time - explains the dire fuel consumption and the sooty exhaust. Will be getting a replacement sensor fitted this weekend (thanks for being so efficient Peter) so will report back then - hopefully with a healthy engine once more.
Time permitting, will also try to go for a run with the select monitor connected - showing the knock sensor trace - I have filled with 'ordinary' 97 RON with no booster and will keep this for the test - if nothing shows on the select monitor then stand by for a barrage of abuse to the folks peddling possums and knocklinks!
more anon,
Paul W
Time permitting, will also try to go for a run with the select monitor connected - showing the knock sensor trace - I have filled with 'ordinary' 97 RON with no booster and will keep this for the test - if nothing shows on the select monitor then stand by for a barrage of abuse to the folks peddling possums and knocklinks!
more anon,
Paul W
26 February 2000, 11:00 PM
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ok - have had the O2 sensor swapped out and the car is running correctly again - nice.
also - report back from Peter C who checked the knock sensor behaviour after the O2 sensor was changed.... Select Monitor showed real-time knock at 1.5 % when engine started after a reset - this was with a fresh tank of 97 RON - good news is that the ECU was able to compensate for this and a second test showed no knock occurring at all....seems like the ECU CAN cope with 97 RON (esso if you are wondering)by retarding ignition etc. - thus I haven't bothered to do the tests on 97RON with octane booster yet as there isn't any real point...however I WILL be getting a knocklink to keep an eye on the situation.
conclusions?
97 RON is ok in an sti ver5 - maybe not a good idea for sustained high revs/trackdays though...I will continue to use booster when the car is going to be driven in a more extreme manner than usual. Knocklink will show driver (without having to go to the trouble of getting a select monitor hooked up) when excess knock is being detected - thus giving an opportunity to change fuel or 'take it easy'.
I don't think that going the whole hog and buying an aftermarket ECU is really necessary - this is however purely my own oppinion and only the experience I have gained from one sti 5 - my own.
hope this may serve to temper some of the more extreme doom+gloom messages that are flying around....may even save someone outlaying a shed load of money on kit they don't need - suggest everyone reads-up as much as they can then makes their own decisions - that way you will always be happiest.
cheers,
Paul W
also - report back from Peter C who checked the knock sensor behaviour after the O2 sensor was changed.... Select Monitor showed real-time knock at 1.5 % when engine started after a reset - this was with a fresh tank of 97 RON - good news is that the ECU was able to compensate for this and a second test showed no knock occurring at all....seems like the ECU CAN cope with 97 RON (esso if you are wondering)by retarding ignition etc. - thus I haven't bothered to do the tests on 97RON with octane booster yet as there isn't any real point...however I WILL be getting a knocklink to keep an eye on the situation.
conclusions?
97 RON is ok in an sti ver5 - maybe not a good idea for sustained high revs/trackdays though...I will continue to use booster when the car is going to be driven in a more extreme manner than usual. Knocklink will show driver (without having to go to the trouble of getting a select monitor hooked up) when excess knock is being detected - thus giving an opportunity to change fuel or 'take it easy'.
I don't think that going the whole hog and buying an aftermarket ECU is really necessary - this is however purely my own oppinion and only the experience I have gained from one sti 5 - my own.
hope this may serve to temper some of the more extreme doom+gloom messages that are flying around....may even save someone outlaying a shed load of money on kit they don't need - suggest everyone reads-up as much as they can then makes their own decisions - that way you will always be happiest.
cheers,
Paul W
27 February 2000, 10:25 AM
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Paul,
very useful feedback - I have not had the same diagnosis as you - and have had a number of 'electrical' problems with the car.
These have been fixed, but knock is still on the agenda at high revs, even with Octane Booster.
HOWEVER - when Merv at PE has my car on the Select Monitor he did give me a throwaway comment that my Lambda Sensor was a 'bit slow to react'.
So a new O2 sensor me thinks!
Thanks for sharing very useful feedback.
Cheers,
David
PS I was also informed that a failed Lambda sensor would have no impact on Knock at higher revs! Which is why I didn't go down that path.
[This message has been edited by Rannoch (edited 27-02-2000).]
very useful feedback - I have not had the same diagnosis as you - and have had a number of 'electrical' problems with the car.
These have been fixed, but knock is still on the agenda at high revs, even with Octane Booster.
HOWEVER - when Merv at PE has my car on the Select Monitor he did give me a throwaway comment that my Lambda Sensor was a 'bit slow to react'.
So a new O2 sensor me thinks!
Thanks for sharing very useful feedback.
Cheers,
David
PS I was also informed that a failed Lambda sensor would have no impact on Knock at higher revs! Which is why I didn't go down that path.
[This message has been edited by Rannoch (edited 27-02-2000).]
27 February 2000, 04:25 PM
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Gavin,
If I understand the Possum Link Manual, Training WRX and other notes to me offline then the sensor continues to play a role - but a different one to maintaining Lambda as it does at low revs.
By extrapolating what Paul has said - a 'slow' sensor will cause a lag between reading an Air Fuel Ratio and then causing the injectors to react with more/less fuel.
I could be extrapolate incorrectly of course - input would be welcome - I know I am not alone with a slow O2 sensor - so maybe this could be one the root causes in some of the STi Vs that haven't run so well.
It comes down to the fact a modded STi of any pedigree is running near or on 'safe' limits so anything that may impact this should be working spot-on. Paul's note merely prompted me to ask the same question you have just asked.
David
If I understand the Possum Link Manual, Training WRX and other notes to me offline then the sensor continues to play a role - but a different one to maintaining Lambda as it does at low revs.
By extrapolating what Paul has said - a 'slow' sensor will cause a lag between reading an Air Fuel Ratio and then causing the injectors to react with more/less fuel.
I could be extrapolate incorrectly of course - input would be welcome - I know I am not alone with a slow O2 sensor - so maybe this could be one the root causes in some of the STi Vs that haven't run so well.
It comes down to the fact a modded STi of any pedigree is running near or on 'safe' limits so anything that may impact this should be working spot-on. Paul's note merely prompted me to ask the same question you have just asked.
David
27 February 2000, 04:49 PM
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of O2 sensors...
David is correct that the lamda sensor doesn't 'operate' at high revs - it is of the narrow band type - wide band sensors costs oodles and are generally only found in tuning workshops or on motec systems etc...
also correct that a 'slow' sensor does not adjust fuel air mix quick enough... in my case it was leaving the mix too rich all the time - no real risk there though, as too rich is better than too lean.
24 hours on; and the car is running a lot more smoothly now.
btw - read a WWW article on lamda sensors that explained how they work and how easy it is to damage them... could it be that most people who have downpipes have also suffered from failed O2 sensor due to them being manhandled/covered in grease etc? - or maybe just the increase in temperature does them in? - easy enough to replace anyway. Also looking forward to improved fuel consumption now :-)
Paul
David is correct that the lamda sensor doesn't 'operate' at high revs - it is of the narrow band type - wide band sensors costs oodles and are generally only found in tuning workshops or on motec systems etc...
also correct that a 'slow' sensor does not adjust fuel air mix quick enough... in my case it was leaving the mix too rich all the time - no real risk there though, as too rich is better than too lean.
24 hours on; and the car is running a lot more smoothly now.
btw - read a WWW article on lamda sensors that explained how they work and how easy it is to damage them... could it be that most people who have downpipes have also suffered from failed O2 sensor due to them being manhandled/covered in grease etc? - or maybe just the increase in temperature does them in? - easy enough to replace anyway. Also looking forward to improved fuel consumption now :-)
Paul
28 February 2000, 12:29 AM
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This thread has potential for starting another "heated" debate..some of the comments on this thread are misleading if not totally wrong..
The normal lambda sensor is good upto 900 degrees where it will be damaged. You should never be able to generate this kind of heat unless something is seriously wrong or your map is well out.
The lambda sensor does not "stop working" at high rpm/load (where did you guys get that from?) BUT the standard ECU does not use its output..it switches from closed to open-loop.
Once upto temperature the sensor produces a voltage and continues to do so, regardless of load. It will only "stop" producing a voltage if damaged (mine stopped producing a voltage when very hot - the sign of a tired worn-out sensor).
The standard sensor's range is from about 15:1 to 11:1 and as such can deal with high boost/rich mixture
The wideband range is from about 23:1 to 10:1 and so is better at dealing with the leaner scale. I will accept however it is more accurate under full boost simply because it is an expensive , professional item that has heat compensation.
As far as being slow/quick..the thing is mechanical..it reacts to oxygen in the gas flow..I can't see a wideband sensor reacting any faster than a normal (in good condition) one...HOWEVER the ECU "samples" the sensor's output less at low rpm/load..
hope that clears up a few things..
The normal lambda sensor is good upto 900 degrees where it will be damaged. You should never be able to generate this kind of heat unless something is seriously wrong or your map is well out.
The lambda sensor does not "stop working" at high rpm/load (where did you guys get that from?) BUT the standard ECU does not use its output..it switches from closed to open-loop.
Once upto temperature the sensor produces a voltage and continues to do so, regardless of load. It will only "stop" producing a voltage if damaged (mine stopped producing a voltage when very hot - the sign of a tired worn-out sensor).
The standard sensor's range is from about 15:1 to 11:1 and as such can deal with high boost/rich mixture
The wideband range is from about 23:1 to 10:1 and so is better at dealing with the leaner scale. I will accept however it is more accurate under full boost simply because it is an expensive , professional item that has heat compensation.
As far as being slow/quick..the thing is mechanical..it reacts to oxygen in the gas flow..I can't see a wideband sensor reacting any faster than a normal (in good condition) one...HOWEVER the ECU "samples" the sensor's output less at low rpm/load..
hope that clears up a few things..
28 February 2000, 12:49 AM
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Yeah I'll be at Donington on Sunday and OK if you guys would like some tuition I'll give you some.
I'd give out my mobile number but it could prove a dodgy move - So send me a mail to phil@philbennett.com and I'll get in touch with individuals directly.
I'm sure some people think yeah, yeah can't teach me anything BUT I think you'll be pleased with the results.
I'd give out my mobile number but it could prove a dodgy move - So send me a mail to phil@philbennett.com and I'll get in touch with individuals directly.
I'm sure some people think yeah, yeah can't teach me anything BUT I think you'll be pleased with the results.
28 February 2000, 09:23 AM
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Paul,
I believe that Bob Rawle has his O2 sensor in the headers! So if the engine is running right then temperature shouldn't be a problem. I also believe that Bob runs his Possum with Lambda on and so is using it across the rev range to set AFR targets.
And I hope that if I am misquoting him he will step in and put us right
Cheers,
David
I believe that Bob Rawle has his O2 sensor in the headers! So if the engine is running right then temperature shouldn't be a problem. I also believe that Bob runs his Possum with Lambda on and so is using it across the rev range to set AFR targets.
And I hope that if I am misquoting him he will step in and put us right
Cheers,
David
28 February 2000, 09:39 AM
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Regards the O2 sensor - Basically when the thing fails or is disconnected then it will assume the safest settings for the engine - and falls back to these default settings.
i.e. rich mixture.
i.e. rich mixture.
28 February 2000, 10:22 AM
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Hello again Phil!
I thought you were (quote) ' not an engine expert'? - I agree though, it would appear that the ecu just 'gets on with it' if there is no response from the lamda... in the article I read (MX5/Miata discussion) there were even folks suggesting that it did no harm to disconnect it altogether...hmmm.
In my case, the thing had not stopped working altogether - just not reacting properly - it was giving out a voltage and emitting about 4 signals a second but not reacting quick enough to increase/decrease in revs.
Off topic completely - but given your interest in scoobies - are we going to see you at Donington on Sunday? - I'm sure some folks would like some free tuition !
cheers, Paul W
I thought you were (quote) ' not an engine expert'? - I agree though, it would appear that the ecu just 'gets on with it' if there is no response from the lamda... in the article I read (MX5/Miata discussion) there were even folks suggesting that it did no harm to disconnect it altogether...hmmm.
In my case, the thing had not stopped working altogether - just not reacting properly - it was giving out a voltage and emitting about 4 signals a second but not reacting quick enough to increase/decrease in revs.
Off topic completely - but given your interest in scoobies - are we going to see you at Donington on Sunday? - I'm sure some folks would like some free tuition !
cheers, Paul W
28 February 2000, 01:39 PM
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Lee
thanks for the clarification - agree with your points - I obviously bow to your greater knowledge here!
however, it is possible that the sensor can produce apparently 'healthy' voltages above .45v and yet be defective - this is what was happening to mine...produced between .7 and .9 quite quickly when warm but failed to drop back down when throttle lifted... should really go back down to .1 or so within a second.... mine wasn't reacting for 4 seconds or more. I have since read that silicone sealant damage is most likely explanation - a carbon deposit would normally be burnt off by heat when running lean - anyway it is easy enough to spot with the select monitor (though I had never seen it until Peter C showed me) as it charts the cross points (transitions past .45 volts on the way up or down) in a real time trace. It would be more difficult to spot this using a simple voltmeter as it is the repeated cross-point activity that is crucial for diagnosing a healthy sensor.
Do you know what temp it gets up to in there? - presumably a bit warmer after a downpipe and de-cat system is fitted? - I know these sensors don't even start to work until 600 degrees - but all these figures sound high to a layman like me! I have seen mention that excessive heat can be harmful - but the same article I read also stated it was ok to test the sensor using a propane torch!
of the statement that the sensors don't work at high revs...
- note that I used inverted commas around my original sentence - you are right to point out that it is always working whilst there is heat... however since the ECU switches out of closed loop mode it is effectively not 'operational' - again your correction is right.
think we are reaching the zenith for this thread - can there really be anything more of interest to know about O2 sensors? ;-)
it has been fun learning though!
Paul W
ps - must learn how to spell lambda !
(and this from someone who speaks greek too!)
[This message has been edited by pwebb (edited 28-02-2000).]
thanks for the clarification - agree with your points - I obviously bow to your greater knowledge here!
however, it is possible that the sensor can produce apparently 'healthy' voltages above .45v and yet be defective - this is what was happening to mine...produced between .7 and .9 quite quickly when warm but failed to drop back down when throttle lifted... should really go back down to .1 or so within a second.... mine wasn't reacting for 4 seconds or more. I have since read that silicone sealant damage is most likely explanation - a carbon deposit would normally be burnt off by heat when running lean - anyway it is easy enough to spot with the select monitor (though I had never seen it until Peter C showed me) as it charts the cross points (transitions past .45 volts on the way up or down) in a real time trace. It would be more difficult to spot this using a simple voltmeter as it is the repeated cross-point activity that is crucial for diagnosing a healthy sensor.
Do you know what temp it gets up to in there? - presumably a bit warmer after a downpipe and de-cat system is fitted? - I know these sensors don't even start to work until 600 degrees - but all these figures sound high to a layman like me! I have seen mention that excessive heat can be harmful - but the same article I read also stated it was ok to test the sensor using a propane torch!
of the statement that the sensors don't work at high revs...
- note that I used inverted commas around my original sentence - you are right to point out that it is always working whilst there is heat... however since the ECU switches out of closed loop mode it is effectively not 'operational' - again your correction is right.
think we are reaching the zenith for this thread - can there really be anything more of interest to know about O2 sensors? ;-)
it has been fun learning though!
Paul W
ps - must learn how to spell lambda !
(and this from someone who speaks greek too!)
[This message has been edited by pwebb (edited 28-02-2000).]
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