Oil pump problems
23 November 2002, 06:40 PM
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Refference non running Scooby since second hand engine fitted.
Has anyone got pictures of an oil pump stripped down. I have no oil pressure, it looks like a new pump has been fitted, very clean and red hermitite for a gasket, a top job carried out by someone. I removed the pressure relief valve under the cambelt tensioner but there is only a spring in there, no valve / ball bearing. I can remember there was an uprated releif valve modification on here. Would anyone have their old valve that they want to sell me ?
Cheers Colin.
Has anyone got pictures of an oil pump stripped down. I have no oil pressure, it looks like a new pump has been fitted, very clean and red hermitite for a gasket, a top job carried out by someone. I removed the pressure relief valve under the cambelt tensioner but there is only a spring in there, no valve / ball bearing. I can remember there was an uprated releif valve modification on here. Would anyone have their old valve that they want to sell me ?
Cheers Colin.
24 November 2002, 02:22 PM
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There should be a piston/plonger in there. If you speak to Rodger clark, they may sell you their up grade part.
Just DON'T run the engine !
Mark.
Just DON'T run the engine !
Mark.
24 November 2002, 02:55 PM
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There are 2 [at least ] types of oil pump and the internal gears are a different width. If some one has 'Refurbished' the pump by swapping a few parts around from one or more old pumps it is jsut possible that they have mixed up thick and thin gears. Remember were talking width here not diameter.
Otherwise, if you've pulled the spring out and no pluger has followed then either it's stuck in there and non functioining or not there at all.
Hope that helps - Don't bother with an 'uprated pump' they're not worth it. Cost or performance.
Otherwise, if you've pulled the spring out and no pluger has followed then either it's stuck in there and non functioining or not there at all.
Hope that helps - Don't bother with an 'uprated pump' they're not worth it. Cost or performance.
24 November 2002, 06:02 PM
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I had a better look today in the light and there was a plunger in the releif valve. Cleaned it all up and put back together but still no oil pressure while engine cranking. I thought I would then carry out the same test on my scooby with the engine cranking, only to find the battery was flat so I could not do a comparission.
I would of thought that there should be some oil pressure while cranking the engine on the starter for 30 seconds. There is plenty oil in the engine but I do not know when the engine was last run.
Is it possible to change the oil pump with the sump on ?
Cheers Colin.
I would of thought that there should be some oil pressure while cranking the engine on the starter for 30 seconds. There is plenty oil in the engine but I do not know when the engine was last run.
Is it possible to change the oil pump with the sump on ?
Cheers Colin.
24 November 2002, 06:42 PM
#6
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How are you measuring the oil pressure ... if its a "typical" pressure gauge (HKS/DEFI et al) then you may well not see any pressure reading under cranking regime. DO'B, very interested in hearing why you say that an "uprated" oil pump is a waste of money ... especially when the part has been identified with big end failure.
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24 November 2002, 09:02 PM
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Colin & Bob, Yes Colin the pump will come off the oil pan, be sure to use a good quality sealer when re-fitting. Subaru do some good stuff that sets hard and seals forever. It's a million bucks a tube but is the best.
Bob the discussion about oil pumps has been seen before. In my opinion having built between 75 and 80 engines this year alone. Never less than 3 a week, the oil pump deal is a red herring. In most cases that we rebuild, the pump is fine, been cleaned properly and refitted. The stuck relief valve is an effect not a cause. When the B/e fails debris goes through the system and at that point the relief valve sticks. Same will happen to an 'Uprated ' pump. WRC cars use standard pumps with just a small engineering design change to the relief valve bullet.
The b/e fails because of wipe, probably caused by cumulative servicing where a dry filter is fitted xxx litres of something poured in and the engine started - watch the oil light go out - Hey Presto!! we're off. But in the meantimne waiting for the oil light to go out the engine will have rotated 20 times probably with nothing like enough oil pressure or volume. No 3 big end is as far as you can get from the oil pump and consequently gets fed last. Carry that forward over maybe 5 / 6 services and you're getting a to a large number of revolutions.
Also the Subaru crank is very small and bearing contact are is also small. With the amount of hp going through these units something has to give and frankly the crank and bearing size are right at the far end of their limit. It doesn't take much to provoke it.
The cure is possibly to fill the oil filter, disconnect the ignition module at the cam end and spin till pressure is well established - reconnect and then hey presto!! However, if you are sure that you're engine has never been subjected to the first scenario you should never see a b/e failure. Maybe.
UK driving conditions are different to Japan. We go faster, longer, we run on a lower ron rating than they do. Optimax is good but still lower than Japan.
Lastly, Colin, be careful here, because if you keep spinning it you'll likley wipe the bearings and your rebuild is a waste of money already. Find the cause of the lack of oil pressure quickly or you may as well take it back out and strip it again. Just a last thought have tried filling the filter with oil because sometimes when they are dry they just won't draw oil through.
Good luck
Bob the discussion about oil pumps has been seen before. In my opinion having built between 75 and 80 engines this year alone. Never less than 3 a week, the oil pump deal is a red herring. In most cases that we rebuild, the pump is fine, been cleaned properly and refitted. The stuck relief valve is an effect not a cause. When the B/e fails debris goes through the system and at that point the relief valve sticks. Same will happen to an 'Uprated ' pump. WRC cars use standard pumps with just a small engineering design change to the relief valve bullet.
The b/e fails because of wipe, probably caused by cumulative servicing where a dry filter is fitted xxx litres of something poured in and the engine started - watch the oil light go out - Hey Presto!! we're off. But in the meantimne waiting for the oil light to go out the engine will have rotated 20 times probably with nothing like enough oil pressure or volume. No 3 big end is as far as you can get from the oil pump and consequently gets fed last. Carry that forward over maybe 5 / 6 services and you're getting a to a large number of revolutions.
Also the Subaru crank is very small and bearing contact are is also small. With the amount of hp going through these units something has to give and frankly the crank and bearing size are right at the far end of their limit. It doesn't take much to provoke it.
The cure is possibly to fill the oil filter, disconnect the ignition module at the cam end and spin till pressure is well established - reconnect and then hey presto!! However, if you are sure that you're engine has never been subjected to the first scenario you should never see a b/e failure. Maybe.
UK driving conditions are different to Japan. We go faster, longer, we run on a lower ron rating than they do. Optimax is good but still lower than Japan.
Lastly, Colin, be careful here, because if you keep spinning it you'll likley wipe the bearings and your rebuild is a waste of money already. Find the cause of the lack of oil pressure quickly or you may as well take it back out and strip it again. Just a last thought have tried filling the filter with oil because sometimes when they are dry they just won't draw oil through.
Good luck
25 November 2002, 08:06 PM
#9
Ecu Specialist
I'm sure we are all glad to hear that the stuck relief valve is an effect not a cause .. so what is the cause is the next question.
The service procedure you describe is well publicised already on this bbs, also there are proven instances of a sticky plunger leading to failure ... no particles found you see. When I talk about uprated pump I also am only refering to the relief valve which in std form can have sharp edges and fraize which can pick up in the Aluminium pump body.The score marks that can be found in the pump plunger in these cases match when examined under a microscope.
The Jap spec scenario is also well documented here and is very valid ... apart from all the cars that are unofficially de-restricted for the weekend racing of course but for sure they can't hold the high revs we can for so long.
All the collected info I have points to poor oil quality, servicing procedure or oil pump "failure" (I count the plunger issue as being part of the oil pump) as being contributing factors but no one has yet proved that any single one or combination is the real cause. I tend to the view that the moment of failure is actually triggered by some event in advance of that happening. That puts it into the statistical category.
I think everyone is genuinely interested if there are scenarios or combinations thereof that have not been previously done to death or that can be seen in a different light. (Big End No 3 thread if it can still be found)
The more info on the subject that is made public the better.
cheers
The service procedure you describe is well publicised already on this bbs, also there are proven instances of a sticky plunger leading to failure ... no particles found you see. When I talk about uprated pump I also am only refering to the relief valve which in std form can have sharp edges and fraize which can pick up in the Aluminium pump body.The score marks that can be found in the pump plunger in these cases match when examined under a microscope.
The Jap spec scenario is also well documented here and is very valid ... apart from all the cars that are unofficially de-restricted for the weekend racing of course but for sure they can't hold the high revs we can for so long.
All the collected info I have points to poor oil quality, servicing procedure or oil pump "failure" (I count the plunger issue as being part of the oil pump) as being contributing factors but no one has yet proved that any single one or combination is the real cause. I tend to the view that the moment of failure is actually triggered by some event in advance of that happening. That puts it into the statistical category.
I think everyone is genuinely interested if there are scenarios or combinations thereof that have not been previously done to death or that can be seen in a different light. (Big End No 3 thread if it can still be found)
The more info on the subject that is made public the better.
cheers
25 November 2002, 08:59 PM
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Bob, sorry to be repeating previously aired views - I'm new to the Scoobynet deal and thought I'd give the benefit of a fresh opinion rather than some of the rather hysterical ones I've seen and heard before.
I think part of the problem is a lack of history from Japan on how the vehicle has been treated and run over there. It's all very well increasing the Hp to dizzy heights if you are sure of the internals' condition.
In a real world I would advocate rebuilding the engine before hanging chips and all sorts of aftermarket stuff on an engine that may well be on its last legs. Probably work out cheaper in the long run too......
Of the 50 plus cars we've had in for rebuild this year I've driven most. All shapes and sizes of WRX STi 2 door 4 door 5 door you name it and the one thing that comes through most af all is that they all drive differently and some that go like hell do so for no obvious reason and some are very ho hum ' I thought it'd go better than that.
I think the moral of that is get it running right BEFORE spending heaps oin stuff that it maybe doesn't need. One of the nicest cars I drive [ seriously ] was an automatic WRX 4 door. It had the 3 big end deal and we replaced the engine with another and believe it or not I could have lived with that car. [ This from a 380 hp Skyline owner...]
I don't disagree with your poor quality control on the oil pump plunger and l do agree that we're missing something in the jigsaw of B/e failure. But what exactly I'm not sure, I gues after all our rebuilds we've done have covered 50K miles and they all start going wrong again we'll have a better idea.
Lets try to keep a dialogue going to try to get a conclusion then wqe'll all be able to benefit.
Colin - hows it going with the lack of O/P - got an answer??
I think part of the problem is a lack of history from Japan on how the vehicle has been treated and run over there. It's all very well increasing the Hp to dizzy heights if you are sure of the internals' condition.
In a real world I would advocate rebuilding the engine before hanging chips and all sorts of aftermarket stuff on an engine that may well be on its last legs. Probably work out cheaper in the long run too......
Of the 50 plus cars we've had in for rebuild this year I've driven most. All shapes and sizes of WRX STi 2 door 4 door 5 door you name it and the one thing that comes through most af all is that they all drive differently and some that go like hell do so for no obvious reason and some are very ho hum ' I thought it'd go better than that.
I think the moral of that is get it running right BEFORE spending heaps oin stuff that it maybe doesn't need. One of the nicest cars I drive [ seriously ] was an automatic WRX 4 door. It had the 3 big end deal and we replaced the engine with another and believe it or not I could have lived with that car. [ This from a 380 hp Skyline owner...]
I don't disagree with your poor quality control on the oil pump plunger and l do agree that we're missing something in the jigsaw of B/e failure. But what exactly I'm not sure, I gues after all our rebuilds we've done have covered 50K miles and they all start going wrong again we'll have a better idea.
Lets try to keep a dialogue going to try to get a conclusion then wqe'll all be able to benefit.
Colin - hows it going with the lack of O/P - got an answer??
26 November 2002, 08:27 PM
#11
Ecu Specialist
Since the search is limited these days its hard to find past history, the bbs has discussed this at length from time to time but the debate is always worth airing as you never know when a tidbit of info will throw new light. Agree about the variability of the cars ... tuning is a nightmare as almost nothing is portable and virtually always generates a differing result.
Can't agree on the rebuild first scenario although it clearly could be considered the best thing to do, depends on what the objectives are, most cars that run big ends do so for a reason (or combination of) its just that no one has yet managed to "log" events in sufficient detail, after all who would "expect" this to happen and be paying extra attention .. cars that lose pistons due to det etc are usually caught out by bad fuel quality, failed or failing maf etc. That could happen even with a rebuilt lump if the driver was "unaware". I know of cars with std engines running highish boost etc (but remapped) that have covered thousands of miles with no problems. Remapping won't save a car from bearing pick up though.
I'm pretty convinced that the start of bearing failure is local "pickup" which sets up a hot spot, sometimes it will "heal" itself, occasionally it results in bearing spin and failure though as we have seen. Causes are possibly many, carburised oil, poor quaility oil, as mentioned servicing (poor priming) among some.
I know of one car that ran a big end within a few miles of collection after service as the owner was driving from the dealer to the supermarket in traffic all the time ... what chance of that, a prior event must have been the trigger there.
Can't agree on the rebuild first scenario although it clearly could be considered the best thing to do, depends on what the objectives are, most cars that run big ends do so for a reason (or combination of) its just that no one has yet managed to "log" events in sufficient detail, after all who would "expect" this to happen and be paying extra attention .. cars that lose pistons due to det etc are usually caught out by bad fuel quality, failed or failing maf etc. That could happen even with a rebuilt lump if the driver was "unaware". I know of cars with std engines running highish boost etc (but remapped) that have covered thousands of miles with no problems. Remapping won't save a car from bearing pick up though.
I'm pretty convinced that the start of bearing failure is local "pickup" which sets up a hot spot, sometimes it will "heal" itself, occasionally it results in bearing spin and failure though as we have seen. Causes are possibly many, carburised oil, poor quaility oil, as mentioned servicing (poor priming) among some.
I know of one car that ran a big end within a few miles of collection after service as the owner was driving from the dealer to the supermarket in traffic all the time ... what chance of that, a prior event must have been the trigger there.
27 November 2002, 12:57 PM
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Was it this thread you were refering to Bob?
http://www.scoobynet.co.uk/bbs/threa...ThreadID=29769
Can't say I fancy reading it all again!
Mike
http://www.scoobynet.co.uk/bbs/threa...ThreadID=29769
Can't say I fancy reading it all again!
Mike
27 November 2002, 01:29 PM
#13
So now we've got good recommended oil (Castrol/Motul), got the Subaru oil filter and do the priming thing with crank sensor disconnected. We check the AFR to hopefully catch iffy MAF, maybe a good remap to aleviate det and we don't run at silly speeds for very long. Some have uprated fuel pumps and oil pumps too.
BUT, the car is/was still serviced by the main dealer up to the 3 year warranty thing, even though we do interin oil changes. So who knows if the subaru mechanic skimped on time and didn't pre fill the oil filter? Looks like it's Russian Roulette what ever you do, as the damge may have already been done
How long would an engine last if the mechanic hadn't pre filled the oil filter? This seems to add weight to cars going pop after a main dealer service....
F
BUT, the car is/was still serviced by the main dealer up to the 3 year warranty thing, even though we do interin oil changes. So who knows if the subaru mechanic skimped on time and didn't pre fill the oil filter? Looks like it's Russian Roulette what ever you do, as the damge may have already been done
How long would an engine last if the mechanic hadn't pre filled the oil filter? This seems to add weight to cars going pop after a main dealer service....
F
I even turn down boost and retard timing when mine goes in....
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