Fosters

Is an MCSD to formalise the skills I already have worth the cost to get the qualification?

Would I be more likely to be put forward for a job than I am already (with 12 years in IT and 7 years VB/Web tech)?

Devil's Refugee

I'd say the experience would count more right now.
It's a pity the IT market is so sh*te right now, so I wouldn't blame the lack of an MCSD.
If you do a quick search on Jobserve you can judge for yourself how many adverts are looking for a solution developer qualification.

MarkO

No. Not worth the paper they're written on - and that's according to MS, who are now of the opinion (and have been for 2 years) that so many people have taken them and passed, the qualification is meaningless.

Let's be honest, there are thousands of courses out there offering a 'guaranteed MCSD pass' in 7 days. Would you put much credence on a qualification for which it's possible to guarantee a pass?

In some respects, it might count against you. When I used to interview potential candidates I worked on the basis that given 2 identical candidates, one with an MS certification, I'd pick the one without the 'qualification', on the basis that he was clearly a bit more industry-aware and savvy to have not wasted his time/money on something to worthless.

simon_prickett

I've always tended to avoid hiring people with such qualifications, as I see them as a sign of tech bigotry and I've always needed people who can put their hand to anything.

Just my 2p's worth.

Simon.

S55 HOT

Agreed - not worth a thing - if anything count as a slight negative.

BoxerFlat4

So, what would you recomend to say, somebody like me, whose's spent 18 years programming computers in a "non IT" sense, who was looking to move into a "proper" job, and who needed to show some qualifications to a prospective employee ? Qualifications do have a purpose, after all.

IWatkins

Qualifications are quite worthless as far as I'm concerned when interviewing. Much more important is the experience you have gained, reagrdles of whether you were being paid to do it. I.e. if you have been programming at home for the past five years, that does count in my book.

However, when it comes to doing a paper sift of applications, you have to start somewhere and I'm sure most companies etc. just look at qualifications.

I'm lucky in that I get to read *all* the applications for positions in my area so do my own paper sift on whether they seem to be suitable for the position regardless of what they say in the qualifications slot.

As for the specific question, I treat MSCD alongside other such qualifications such as "I went on a 14 day project management course", "I've done a course on Presentation Skills". I.e. could be useful as something to talk about in interview but wouldn't base a hiring decision on it.

Cheers

Ian

MarkO

Do they? My GCSEs were rendered pointless as soon as I passed my A-levels, and my A-levels became instantly worthless once I'd graduated. And as for my degree - well, it probably counted for a lot less than jack sh*t once I'd moved to my 2nd job...

[Edited by MarkO - 11/19/2002 6:24:42 PM]

BoxerFlat4

So your saying, without your GSCE's, you would've been allowed, and passed, your A Levels, which of course you didn't need, because you could've started your degreee without them.

Just because one set of qualifications superceeds (sp) the previous, doesn't make the old ones pointless. Think of it in terms of code : how many of you .NET/ASP/PHP/JAVA guys write code any more in assembler, or even microcode ? Doesn't mean you don't need it, or that it's pointless.

Just my opinion - and my question still stands !

DemonDave

iTrader: (13)

Simon,

Don't you have a mcsd ?

Dave.





Only Joking - agree with Simon ... real world experiance is better

[Edited by DemonDave - 11/19/2002 8:08:58 PM]

simon_prickett

Dave, nope Got a C++ job with no knowledge of C++ (self-taught) then got my current job with no hands on Java and was self-taught... best way AFAIK.

Simon.

Fosters

Cheers chaps, that's a load off.

I've just bought a book on DCOM and will get some JAVA books too. I've got some C++ so it shouldn't take too much effort.

P1Fanatic

Marko thats really good logic. The one without the qual could just be a lazy ******. The one with the qual may have had his work pay for it - who is gonna turn down free quals?

CCNA is a pretty useless qual but allows you to move onto CCNP, CCDP, CCIE etc so is a necessary evil. In this day and age people tend to do quals not for the experience but to show they are committed to the field.

Its not as black and white as you make out.

Simon.

MarkO

I know. Good, isn't it? True. Or he could be an industry-savvy expert who knew that it would be a waste of productive time. Erm, I would, if it was an MSCE.

Given the choice between a week's earnings at my normal hourly rate, or a week falling asleep in a dull course which will give neither me or the client any benefit, I'd choose the former every time...

Oh, and who's to say that the one who did the course isn't a 'lazy ******' who thought a week's paid dossing on a training jolly wouldn't be easier than actually doing some graft?

Scoty

Ok, so what about someone like me, whose unemployed, who's has access to funding for a wide range of courses available (6 weeks,26 weeks, 12 month even), and see that as my way into the field, due to having no previous experience.

Would agree with employers looking for someone who can put there hand to anything, which I can, but if you aint got experience, would you agree that trying to gain a relevent qualification would be the correct direction, for my benifit, not the employers.

super_si

So you found the thread :P

MarkO

Absolutely. But the key word here is correct qualification - which IMO the MSCx ones aren't.

Scoty

Found it Si

Mark, I am gonna send you an e-mail m8, hope you dont mind

GaryK

I have always believed that in IT experience is everything which makes a refreshing change. I used to suffer alot of what I call 'academic discrimination' when I left school (18 ys ago) whereby employers seem to think that no_degree=idiot whereas degree=mastermind which we all know is not the case, especially in contracting where you dont talk about what your gonna do, you have f**king do it or you aint gonna last!

Gary

S55 HOT

I'd rather have someone who has studied formal design techniques, structured coding, full lifecycles, who could explain the difference between prototyping, iterative development and waterfall, who can talk me through the differences between client server and the web paradigm etc. etc. rather than someone with a basic understanding of a specific tool.

It may just be my perception (but I guess I'm not alone) that the MCSD sets the bar too low and is too specific to a given tool.

MarkO

No problem. Glad to help if I can!

Oh, and I totally agree with what S555HOT said.