The great mapping rip off
30 July 2012, 07:44 PM
#211
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my understanding is this...........
if your "mapping" a car for the first time then its a 'map', revisiting a car that has previously been remapped is a "tweak" depending on how different its been modded...........
if your "mapping" a car for the first time then its a 'map', revisiting a car that has previously been remapped is a "tweak" depending on how different its been modded...........
30 July 2012, 07:45 PM
#212
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This thread is a joke, nowadays Tooners are everywhere. Everyone wants to be a tooner. I have seen so many bad maps made by people like the topicstarter it gets annoying. Please stop tooning other people's cars. Do it on your own car only. You get what you pay for in the end.
30 July 2012, 07:51 PM
#214
This thread is a joke, nowadays Tooners are everywhere. Everyone wants to be a tooner. I have seen so many bad maps made by people like the topicstarter it gets annoying. Please stop tooning other people's cars. Do it on your own car only. You get what you pay for in the end.
30 July 2012, 07:52 PM
#215
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If you think car mappers are expensive then you have never worked in the oil industry.
People are specialists in what they do.
I work on gas turbines amongst numerous other complex pieces of equipment in the oil industry I know a lot about them and the potential issues that come with them. This makes me a specialist in my field and justifys my wages
Mappers map cars and that's there specialist field. You pay for there knowledge and experience and proved track record these guys have.
But to make a sweeping statement such as "THE GREAT MAPPING RIP OFF" is a joke £300 won't get you much in a lot of industrys let alone a software expert/competent mechanic
People are specialists in what they do.
I work on gas turbines amongst numerous other complex pieces of equipment in the oil industry I know a lot about them and the potential issues that come with them. This makes me a specialist in my field and justifys my wages
Mappers map cars and that's there specialist field. You pay for there knowledge and experience and proved track record these guys have.
But to make a sweeping statement such as "THE GREAT MAPPING RIP OFF" is a joke £300 won't get you much in a lot of industrys let alone a software expert/competent mechanic
30 July 2012, 07:53 PM
#216
The option is out there for people to map the car themselves, or use a part-time mapped who will be cheaper.
However, most people will choose to pay the £300 (or £150 for tweeks) and have a pro-mapper do it, and surely that says something? They know they can get it cheaper, but choose not to.
However, most people will choose to pay the £300 (or £150 for tweeks) and have a pro-mapper do it, and surely that says something? They know they can get it cheaper, but choose not to.
30 July 2012, 07:56 PM
#217
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This thread is a joke, nowadays Tooners are everywhere. Everyone wants to be a tooner. I have seen so many bad maps made by people like the topicstarter it gets annoying. Please stop tooning other people's cars. Do it on your own car only. You get what you pay for in the end.
I repeat I do not want to be a full time / payed mapper
Do you not read mate , it's my hobby for my car ,
I've no intentions of doing other cars
So what can't you understand ?
Read the thread again mate
30 July 2012, 07:58 PM
#218
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Hi Paul , first of all I would like to thank you for joining in
And your reply
The first point in question is equipment , I totally agree a nice set up costs a hell of a lot of money and for very obvious reasons , your or others cost may be slightly higher which I can totally understand
Second I must say without doubt you will know your stuff , and I have never said otherwise
Now here's the crux of the matter , most posts on here are from average guys who have done a few mods , exhaust , turbo , induction what we would call minor stuff
Now when I started modding my car I went to 3 tuners and without hesitation said ecutek , why ? No alternatives or even asking to what extent the mods I had done
My thread title may be a large genralisation but in my opinion so are mapping prices , example how many company's do you see mapping from £300 now that cant be right , because you know as well as me billy whizz who's just fitted a decat or induction will not need the in depth mapping session than that of a high spec race or street car
Like its been said I've sneezed in my car , oh you need a remap
I don't feel that folk are being given the best advice and paying for somthing they don't need (or may I say overkill)
I'm in no doubt you get a pig of a job that takes an age
On the flip side you will also get the little tweak jobs , which if it's anything to go by on here that's all that most need
as for insurance costs ect ect , I know mate I used to run a garage but left my brother to carry on , too much hassle and stress
So to sum up why arnt most cars mapped on merit (i,e tweak) rather than being bundled under the £300 map umbrella ?
Tony
And your reply
The first point in question is equipment , I totally agree a nice set up costs a hell of a lot of money and for very obvious reasons , your or others cost may be slightly higher which I can totally understand
Second I must say without doubt you will know your stuff , and I have never said otherwise
Now here's the crux of the matter , most posts on here are from average guys who have done a few mods , exhaust , turbo , induction what we would call minor stuff
Now when I started modding my car I went to 3 tuners and without hesitation said ecutek , why ? No alternatives or even asking to what extent the mods I had done
My thread title may be a large genralisation but in my opinion so are mapping prices , example how many company's do you see mapping from £300 now that cant be right , because you know as well as me billy whizz who's just fitted a decat or induction will not need the in depth mapping session than that of a high spec race or street car
Like its been said I've sneezed in my car , oh you need a remap
I don't feel that folk are being given the best advice and paying for somthing they don't need (or may I say overkill)
I'm in no doubt you get a pig of a job that takes an age
On the flip side you will also get the little tweak jobs , which if it's anything to go by on here that's all that most need
as for insurance costs ect ect , I know mate I used to run a garage but left my brother to carry on , too much hassle and stress
So to sum up why arnt most cars mapped on merit (i,e tweak) rather than being bundled under the £300 map umbrella ?
Tony
If you have run your own business, you should know more than most.... costs for a job are more than just what the customer see's being delivered.
It's entirely up to the business how they set out their model and it's entirely up to the customers who they use. It's a simple process that appears to work in my opinion..... most of the time. lol
30 July 2012, 08:03 PM
#219
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If you think car mappers are expensive then you have never worked in the oil industry.
People are specialists in what they do.
I work on gas turbines amongst numerous other complex pieces of equipment in the oil industry I know a lot about them and the potential issues that come with them. This makes me a specialist in my field and justifys my wages
Mappers map cars and that's there specialist field. You pay for there knowledge and experience and proved track record these guys have.
But to make a sweeping statement such as "THE GREAT MAPPING RIP OFF" is a joke £300 won't get you much in a lot of industrys let alone a software expert/competent mechanic
People are specialists in what they do.
I work on gas turbines amongst numerous other complex pieces of equipment in the oil industry I know a lot about them and the potential issues that come with them. This makes me a specialist in my field and justifys my wages
Mappers map cars and that's there specialist field. You pay for there knowledge and experience and proved track record these guys have.
But to make a sweeping statement such as "THE GREAT MAPPING RIP OFF" is a joke £300 won't get you much in a lot of industrys let alone a software expert/competent mechanic
But we are not talking oil or aircraft are we
So it's no comparison whatsoever Is it
30 July 2012, 08:13 PM
#222
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Prior to me mapping my own cars (> 4 years ago), Andy forrest tweaked my boost profile after I fitted a 3 port boost solenoid, I'm sure he only charged me £50. Subaru charge £80 per hour labour and think it's acceptable to charge £200 for an oil and filter change. I don't think mappers pricing is over the top at all.
On the other point raised here, I think it would be great if SN could create an Engine Management Sub forum for the hobbyists and the curious alike.
On the other point raised here, I think it would be great if SN could create an Engine Management Sub forum for the hobbyists and the curious alike.
30 July 2012, 08:14 PM
#223
Prior to me mapping my own cars (> 4 years ago), Andy forrest tweaked my boost profile after I fitted a 3 port boost solenoid, I'm sure he only charged me £50. Subaru charge £80 per hour labour and think it's acceptable to charge £200 for an oil and filter change. I don't think mappers pricing is over the top at all.
On the other point raised here, I think it would be great if SN could create an Engine Management Sub forum for the hobbyists and the curious alike.
On the other point raised here, I think it would be great if SN could create an Engine Management Sub forum for the hobbyists and the curious alike.
30 July 2012, 08:15 PM
#225
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Perhaps if you had taken the approach of this post above (context wise) initially, you may not have had the response you ended up receiving.
If you have run your own business, you should know more than most.... costs for a job are more than just what the customer see's being delivered.
It's entirely up to the business how they set out their model and it's entirely up to the customers who they use. It's a simple process that appears to work in my opinion..... most of the time. lol
If you have run your own business, you should know more than most.... costs for a job are more than just what the customer see's being delivered.
It's entirely up to the business how they set out their model and it's entirely up to the customers who they use. It's a simple process that appears to work in my opinion..... most of the time. lol
But for £150 a tweak it's too much
To some on here that seems a joke
But to others , £150 here and there soon mounts up
Some guys on here are running on a tight budget and having to pay somtimes as much again for for a remap as the exhaust they've fitted is not right
And before everyone jumps up and says well if you can't afford it don't play
No that's not the answer ,how about instead they are charged a couple hours reasonable labour as opposed to a fixed price £150 , £300 or whatever
I really don't know what response I'd get mate
Some will think *** others will think I'm gonna look into this
Everyone's gonna have there own opinion and so they should
30 July 2012, 08:18 PM
#226
If someone wants to come to me for an Ecutek map, or an Apexi PowerFC map both of which will hopefully be straightforward, they are paying for MY time. Unfortunately they will be competing for my time with someone that want's a complicated map from scratch on a MoTeC or a Syvecs, so they will pretty much pay the same rate.
The other thing that you completely ignore is that you're assuming that the map you're going to work on is correct in the first place. I've been had over so many times by this I will not charge a map on the basis of a "tweak" unless I have previously mapped it. Far to many times I've quote £150 for example to map for say a turbo and headers swap only to find what was already on there was a complete mess. In the case of Ecutek the system is deliberately set up so that you can't download someone elses Ecutek maps.
If it takes me less time I generally charge less, if I quote a fixed price the job turns into a mare, I very rarely charge more. Although I have base maps, EVERY car is different, and on the rare occasion a base map is very good on another car I still go through motions and spend the time on the car. If my base maps are good, it's because I do have a lot of experience and knowledge and that's what people are paying for, and I've done my fair share of nightmare jobs to spot them as they come up in future and not cause a massive headache. Again, customers are paying for that and the more time spent actually mapping the car and the less time spend problem solving the better the resulting map is.
Then there is a question of support. Some people don't realise or even care, but most people will then be back for ongoing technical support (that I believe they are entitled to) from their mapper on a variety of things besides the full power running of their car. Some people don't make enough of this, some people take the pith a little, but overall it is another chunk of time that will go out essentially unbilled.
Then there is comeback. I have mapped cars that have been back to the original mapper a few times and is still not right, or wasn't right and the mapper wants more money to fix his own work. So in the event that something isn't right, a proper mapper should provide this backup, and it eats into our time regardless of blame there is only so much time to go around.
With regards to cost, I would say I have spent £15k on software, much of it Ecutek and licenses on top. That gets me support, which although rarely used is sometimes essential to get the job done especially if the car is a new revision and something in the map definition isn't quite right, or there is a new function in the OEM that needs some control over where we didn't have to in the past. I have spend about £60k on rolling road and install and could really do with spending another £20k to reinstall it proper in a new cell in my new premises.
My insurance for the year is about £4500, it used to be more like £7500. Up until last year I was paying £48k per year in rent, rates and service charge.
I will consume on average one laptop every 2 years before it literally falls a part or has spurious errors that just start costing too much to sort.
I will spend abut £2k per year on more software to support new cars/manufacturers or changes to interface types.
I have purchased interfaces for GEMS, Apexi, MoTeC (x3), Ecutek (many), Openport cables, 12v laptop charges, but I'm still on my first LM-1 wideband I bought about 7 years ago although it's had about 3 leads, 2 serial leads, 3 exhaust probes (one melted on a dyno!) and about 30 wideband sensors in that time (thats over£2k in total spend on measuring AFR over the years).
I have home made det cans, Phormula electronic det cans, inner ear ear phones and have gone through about 5 pairs of ear defenders that have been lost or melted.
I don't map a massive number of cars these days, but some out there are chewing through 3-4 a day quit often, some turn cars round very quickly and the results reflect the lack of time and loving care (best way of putting it).
I am quite happy that I'm not ripping people off myself, although I've seen enough work that doesn't reflect the same value for money, some from now defunct tuners, some from "a mate that does remaps" and some from people that probably were just having a bad day or bad luck.
I started by mapping my own car. But it was Eproms and I wrote my own program to download the OEM maps, made my own interface, my own rom boards (albeit from someone elses schematic) and pulled out a load of the maps from simply "seeing" them in the hex. I made my own eprom programmer (from a kit) and manually split the rom files to fit on two eproms with odd and even bytes. What a hero I was! But really I was just getting into it and learning as I went, but I do have an engineering background, I did actually go to Loughborough Uni and studied Automotive engineering. I tuned racking kart engines when I was 15 and rebuilt my first bike engine when I was 16.
After seeing "Show me your money" I realise I should have just become a plumber or a drain man, us mappers are small fry compared to those guys when it comes to charging.
After writing all that I'm seriously considering putting my prices up!
The other thing that you completely ignore is that you're assuming that the map you're going to work on is correct in the first place. I've been had over so many times by this I will not charge a map on the basis of a "tweak" unless I have previously mapped it. Far to many times I've quote £150 for example to map for say a turbo and headers swap only to find what was already on there was a complete mess. In the case of Ecutek the system is deliberately set up so that you can't download someone elses Ecutek maps.
If it takes me less time I generally charge less, if I quote a fixed price the job turns into a mare, I very rarely charge more. Although I have base maps, EVERY car is different, and on the rare occasion a base map is very good on another car I still go through motions and spend the time on the car. If my base maps are good, it's because I do have a lot of experience and knowledge and that's what people are paying for, and I've done my fair share of nightmare jobs to spot them as they come up in future and not cause a massive headache. Again, customers are paying for that and the more time spent actually mapping the car and the less time spend problem solving the better the resulting map is.
Then there is a question of support. Some people don't realise or even care, but most people will then be back for ongoing technical support (that I believe they are entitled to) from their mapper on a variety of things besides the full power running of their car. Some people don't make enough of this, some people take the pith a little, but overall it is another chunk of time that will go out essentially unbilled.
Then there is comeback. I have mapped cars that have been back to the original mapper a few times and is still not right, or wasn't right and the mapper wants more money to fix his own work. So in the event that something isn't right, a proper mapper should provide this backup, and it eats into our time regardless of blame there is only so much time to go around.
With regards to cost, I would say I have spent £15k on software, much of it Ecutek and licenses on top. That gets me support, which although rarely used is sometimes essential to get the job done especially if the car is a new revision and something in the map definition isn't quite right, or there is a new function in the OEM that needs some control over where we didn't have to in the past. I have spend about £60k on rolling road and install and could really do with spending another £20k to reinstall it proper in a new cell in my new premises.
My insurance for the year is about £4500, it used to be more like £7500. Up until last year I was paying £48k per year in rent, rates and service charge.
I will consume on average one laptop every 2 years before it literally falls a part or has spurious errors that just start costing too much to sort.
I will spend abut £2k per year on more software to support new cars/manufacturers or changes to interface types.
I have purchased interfaces for GEMS, Apexi, MoTeC (x3), Ecutek (many), Openport cables, 12v laptop charges, but I'm still on my first LM-1 wideband I bought about 7 years ago although it's had about 3 leads, 2 serial leads, 3 exhaust probes (one melted on a dyno!) and about 30 wideband sensors in that time (thats over£2k in total spend on measuring AFR over the years).
I have home made det cans, Phormula electronic det cans, inner ear ear phones and have gone through about 5 pairs of ear defenders that have been lost or melted.
I don't map a massive number of cars these days, but some out there are chewing through 3-4 a day quit often, some turn cars round very quickly and the results reflect the lack of time and loving care (best way of putting it).
I am quite happy that I'm not ripping people off myself, although I've seen enough work that doesn't reflect the same value for money, some from now defunct tuners, some from "a mate that does remaps" and some from people that probably were just having a bad day or bad luck.
I started by mapping my own car. But it was Eproms and I wrote my own program to download the OEM maps, made my own interface, my own rom boards (albeit from someone elses schematic) and pulled out a load of the maps from simply "seeing" them in the hex. I made my own eprom programmer (from a kit) and manually split the rom files to fit on two eproms with odd and even bytes. What a hero I was! But really I was just getting into it and learning as I went, but I do have an engineering background, I did actually go to Loughborough Uni and studied Automotive engineering. I tuned racking kart engines when I was 15 and rebuilt my first bike engine when I was 16.
After seeing "Show me your money" I realise I should have just become a plumber or a drain man, us mappers are small fry compared to those guys when it comes to charging.
After writing all that I'm seriously considering putting my prices up!
30 July 2012, 08:26 PM
#228
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) almost sounds like mapping for a second there
30 July 2012, 08:29 PM
#230
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30 July 2012, 08:42 PM
#233
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What I don't understand is, if you can't afford a measly £150 for a map tweak maybe you should be owning an Impreza as it's common knowledge that they are expensive to run.
I know it's not that hard to get a map to work yourself but to get it just right is an art form.
I know it's not that hard to get a map to work yourself but to get it just right is an art form.
30 July 2012, 08:42 PM
#234
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Someone earlier in the thread stated that "most of us will have had remaps" -
well it's quite common knowledge that mine has never been remapped and it possibly never will be.
It's does ok for what it is though.
If I was to ever get it remapped, I'll keep my own counsel on this, there's only 2, maybe 3, people I would let anywhere near my car with a Laptop.
I've got the greatest of respect for Paul, however his choice of hats can be somewhat dubious. I could have done with a hat like his on Sunday though, as I think I mentioned to him. He doesn't know who I am though. 
A while back, I found an old thread on here. It was about cracking the early ECU's. Pavlo, Wallis, Scott T and some others were involved in the thread, I "think" John Banks, (he's posted earlier in this thread) may have also been involved, Paul may be able to confirm? John's currently involved in the EcuTek development for the R35 GTR, IIRC.
Without the likes of them, back then, there's every chance that there would have been no OS remapping in the UK, and there would certainly be no remapping of the early Ecu's coming up on 20 years of the Impreza.
Rip off? No. Expensive? Yes. You're paying for expertise!
I witnessed first hand Paul tweaking the map on the Banana on Sunday, that helped Steven crack the 8's quarter mile. That's the sort of expertise that's being charged for!
well it's quite common knowledge that mine has never been remapped and it possibly never will be.
It's does ok for what it is though.
If I was to ever get it remapped, I'll keep my own counsel on this, there's only 2, maybe 3, people I would let anywhere near my car with a Laptop.
I started by mapping my own car. But it was Eproms and I wrote my own program to download the OEM maps, made my own interface, my own rom boards (albeit from someone elses schematic) and pulled out a load of the maps from simply "seeing" them in the hex. I made my own eprom programmer (from a kit) and manually split the rom files to fit on two eproms with odd and even bytes. What a hero I was! But really I was just getting into it and learning as I went, but I do have an engineering background, I did actually go to Loughborough Uni and studied Automotive engineering. I tuned racking kart engines when I was 15 and rebuilt my first bike engine when I was 16.
A while back, I found an old thread on here. It was about cracking the early ECU's. Pavlo, Wallis, Scott T and some others were involved in the thread, I "think" John Banks, (he's posted earlier in this thread) may have also been involved, Paul may be able to confirm? John's currently involved in the EcuTek development for the R35 GTR, IIRC.
Without the likes of them, back then, there's every chance that there would have been no OS remapping in the UK, and there would certainly be no remapping of the early Ecu's coming up on 20 years of the Impreza.
Rip off? No. Expensive? Yes. You're paying for expertise!
I witnessed first hand Paul tweaking the map on the Banana on Sunday, that helped Steven crack the 8's quarter mile. That's the sort of expertise that's being charged for!
Last edited by mickywrx; 30 July 2012 at 08:44 PM.
30 July 2012, 08:49 PM
#238
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Someone earlier in the thread stated that "most of us will have had remaps" -
well it's quite common knowledge that mine has never been remapped and it possibly never will be.
It's does ok for what it is though.
If I was to ever get it remapped, I'll keep my own counsel on this, there's only 2, maybe 3, people I would let anywhere near my car with a Laptop.
I've got the greatest of respect for Paul, however his choice of hats can be somewhat dubious. I could have done with a hat like his on Sunday though, as I think I mentioned to him. He doesn't know who I am though.
A while back, I found an old thread on here. It was about cracking the early ECU's. Pavlo, Wallis, Scott T and some others were involved in the thread, I "think" John Banks, (he's posted earlier in this thread) may have also been involved, Paul may be able to confirm? John's currently involved in the EcuTek development for the R35 GTR, IIRC.
Without the likes of them, back then, there's every chance that there would have been no OS remapping in the UK, and there would certainly be no remapping of the early Ecu's coming up on 20 years of the Impreza.
Rip off? No. Expensive? Yes. You're paying for expertise!
I witnessed first hand Paul tweaking the map on the Banana on Sunday, that helped Steven crack the 8's quarter mile. That's the sort of expertise that's being charged for!
well it's quite common knowledge that mine has never been remapped and it possibly never will be.
It's does ok for what it is though.
If I was to ever get it remapped, I'll keep my own counsel on this, there's only 2, maybe 3, people I would let anywhere near my car with a Laptop.
I've got the greatest of respect for Paul, however his choice of hats can be somewhat dubious. I could have done with a hat like his on Sunday though, as I think I mentioned to him. He doesn't know who I am though.
A while back, I found an old thread on here. It was about cracking the early ECU's. Pavlo, Wallis, Scott T and some others were involved in the thread, I "think" John Banks, (he's posted earlier in this thread) may have also been involved, Paul may be able to confirm? John's currently involved in the EcuTek development for the R35 GTR, IIRC.
Without the likes of them, back then, there's every chance that there would have been no OS remapping in the UK, and there would certainly be no remapping of the early Ecu's coming up on 20 years of the Impreza.
Rip off? No. Expensive? Yes. You're paying for expertise!
I witnessed first hand Paul tweaking the map on the Banana on Sunday, that helped Steven crack the 8's quarter mile. That's the sort of expertise that's being charged for!
It seems you're not only paying for the skill you're having to pay because the next bloke on the job sheet is a big payer and player ?
Doesn't bode well for cheaper pricing does it ?
30 July 2012, 08:49 PM
#239
They mock the hat whilst peering though their "panda eyes" sunburnt face as the rain trickles down their neck!
I've got the greatest of respect for Paul, however his choice of hats can be somewhat dubious. I could have done with a hat like his on Sunday though, as I think I mentioned to him. He doesn't know who I am though.
I witnessed first hand Paul tweaking the map on the Banana on Sunday, that helped Steven crack the 8's quarter mile. That's the sort of expertise that's being charged for!
I witnessed first hand Paul tweaking the map on the Banana on Sunday, that helped Steven crack the 8's quarter mile. That's the sort of expertise that's being charged for!
30 July 2012, 08:55 PM
#240
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If someone wants to come to me for an Ecutek map, or an Apexi PowerFC map both of which will hopefully be straightforward, they are paying for MY time. Unfortunately they will be competing for my time with someone that want's a complicated map from scratch on a MoTeC or a Syvecs, so they will pretty much pay the same rate.
The other thing that you completely ignore is that you're assuming that the map you're going to work on is correct in the first place. I've been had over so many times by this I will not charge a map on the basis of a "tweak" unless I have previously mapped it. Far to many times I've quote £150 for example to map for say a turbo and headers swap only to find what was already on there was a complete mess. In the case of Ecutek the system is deliberately set up so that you can't download someone elses Ecutek maps.
If it takes me less time I generally charge less, if I quote a fixed price the job turns into a mare, I very rarely charge more. Although I have base maps, EVERY car is different, and on the rare occasion a base map is very good on another car I still go through motions and spend the time on the car. If my base maps are good, it's because I do have a lot of experience and knowledge and that's what people are paying for, and I've done my fair share of nightmare jobs to spot them as they come up in future and not cause a massive headache. Again, customers are paying for that and the more time spent actually mapping the car and the less time spend problem solving the better the resulting map is.
Then there is a question of support. Some people don't realise or even care, but most people will then be back for ongoing technical support (that I believe they are entitled to) from their mapper on a variety of things besides the full power running of their car. Some people don't make enough of this, some people take the pith a little, but overall it is another chunk of time that will go out essentially unbilled.
Then there is comeback. I have mapped cars that have been back to the original mapper a few times and is still not right, or wasn't right and the mapper wants more money to fix his own work. So in the event that something isn't right, a proper mapper should provide this backup, and it eats into our time regardless of blame there is only so much time to go around.
With regards to cost, I would say I have spent £15k on software, much of it Ecutek and licenses on top. That gets me support, which although rarely used is sometimes essential to get the job done especially if the car is a new revision and something in the map definition isn't quite right, or there is a new function in the OEM that needs some control over where we didn't have to in the past. I have spend about £60k on rolling road and install and could really do with spending another £20k to reinstall it proper in a new cell in my new premises.
My insurance for the year is about £4500, it used to be more like £7500. Up until last year I was paying £48k per year in rent, rates and service charge.
I will consume on average one laptop every 2 years before it literally falls a part or has spurious errors that just start costing too much to sort.
I will spend abut £2k per year on more software to support new cars/manufacturers or changes to interface types.
I have purchased interfaces for GEMS, Apexi, MoTeC (x3), Ecutek (many), Openport cables, 12v laptop charges, but I'm still on my first LM-1 wideband I bought about 7 years ago although it's had about 3 leads, 2 serial leads, 3 exhaust probes (one melted on a dyno!) and about 30 wideband sensors in that time (thats over£2k in total spend on measuring AFR over the years).
I have home made det cans, Phormula electronic det cans, inner ear ear phones and have gone through about 5 pairs of ear defenders that have been lost or melted.
I don't map a massive number of cars these days, but some out there are chewing through 3-4 a day quit often, some turn cars round very quickly and the results reflect the lack of time and loving care (best way of putting it).
I am quite happy that I'm not ripping people off myself, although I've seen enough work that doesn't reflect the same value for money, some from now defunct tuners, some from "a mate that does remaps" and some from people that probably were just having a bad day or bad luck.
I started by mapping my own car. But it was Eproms and I wrote my own program to download the OEM maps, made my own interface, my own rom boards (albeit from someone elses schematic) and pulled out a load of the maps from simply "seeing" them in the hex. I made my own eprom programmer (from a kit) and manually split the rom files to fit on two eproms with odd and even bytes. What a hero I was! But really I was just getting into it and learning as I went, but I do have an engineering background, I did actually go to Loughborough Uni and studied Automotive engineering. I tuned racking kart engines when I was 15 and rebuilt my first bike engine when I was 16.
After seeing "Show me your money" I realise I should have just become a plumber or a drain man, us mappers are small fry compared to those guys when it comes to charging.
After writing all that I'm seriously considering putting my prices up!
The other thing that you completely ignore is that you're assuming that the map you're going to work on is correct in the first place. I've been had over so many times by this I will not charge a map on the basis of a "tweak" unless I have previously mapped it. Far to many times I've quote £150 for example to map for say a turbo and headers swap only to find what was already on there was a complete mess. In the case of Ecutek the system is deliberately set up so that you can't download someone elses Ecutek maps.
If it takes me less time I generally charge less, if I quote a fixed price the job turns into a mare, I very rarely charge more. Although I have base maps, EVERY car is different, and on the rare occasion a base map is very good on another car I still go through motions and spend the time on the car. If my base maps are good, it's because I do have a lot of experience and knowledge and that's what people are paying for, and I've done my fair share of nightmare jobs to spot them as they come up in future and not cause a massive headache. Again, customers are paying for that and the more time spent actually mapping the car and the less time spend problem solving the better the resulting map is.
Then there is a question of support. Some people don't realise or even care, but most people will then be back for ongoing technical support (that I believe they are entitled to) from their mapper on a variety of things besides the full power running of their car. Some people don't make enough of this, some people take the pith a little, but overall it is another chunk of time that will go out essentially unbilled.
Then there is comeback. I have mapped cars that have been back to the original mapper a few times and is still not right, or wasn't right and the mapper wants more money to fix his own work. So in the event that something isn't right, a proper mapper should provide this backup, and it eats into our time regardless of blame there is only so much time to go around.
With regards to cost, I would say I have spent £15k on software, much of it Ecutek and licenses on top. That gets me support, which although rarely used is sometimes essential to get the job done especially if the car is a new revision and something in the map definition isn't quite right, or there is a new function in the OEM that needs some control over where we didn't have to in the past. I have spend about £60k on rolling road and install and could really do with spending another £20k to reinstall it proper in a new cell in my new premises.
My insurance for the year is about £4500, it used to be more like £7500. Up until last year I was paying £48k per year in rent, rates and service charge.
I will consume on average one laptop every 2 years before it literally falls a part or has spurious errors that just start costing too much to sort.
I will spend abut £2k per year on more software to support new cars/manufacturers or changes to interface types.
I have purchased interfaces for GEMS, Apexi, MoTeC (x3), Ecutek (many), Openport cables, 12v laptop charges, but I'm still on my first LM-1 wideband I bought about 7 years ago although it's had about 3 leads, 2 serial leads, 3 exhaust probes (one melted on a dyno!) and about 30 wideband sensors in that time (thats over£2k in total spend on measuring AFR over the years).
I have home made det cans, Phormula electronic det cans, inner ear ear phones and have gone through about 5 pairs of ear defenders that have been lost or melted.
I don't map a massive number of cars these days, but some out there are chewing through 3-4 a day quit often, some turn cars round very quickly and the results reflect the lack of time and loving care (best way of putting it).
I am quite happy that I'm not ripping people off myself, although I've seen enough work that doesn't reflect the same value for money, some from now defunct tuners, some from "a mate that does remaps" and some from people that probably were just having a bad day or bad luck.
I started by mapping my own car. But it was Eproms and I wrote my own program to download the OEM maps, made my own interface, my own rom boards (albeit from someone elses schematic) and pulled out a load of the maps from simply "seeing" them in the hex. I made my own eprom programmer (from a kit) and manually split the rom files to fit on two eproms with odd and even bytes. What a hero I was! But really I was just getting into it and learning as I went, but I do have an engineering background, I did actually go to Loughborough Uni and studied Automotive engineering. I tuned racking kart engines when I was 15 and rebuilt my first bike engine when I was 16.
After seeing "Show me your money" I realise I should have just become a plumber or a drain man, us mappers are small fry compared to those guys when it comes to charging.
After writing all that I'm seriously considering putting my prices up!
And it's also in place to cover nightmare scenarios
So in your opinion is billy whizz ,who's fitted a de cat to his standard car paying for his small tweak or a combination of everyone else's jobs
Hence he's bundled under the same umbrella
And don't forget I did put obviously if you've got rr your prices will be higher
How about the man in a van mappers that are doing 2/3 cars a day at £2/300 a time
Do you not think folks are getting short changed ?
Sorry to put you on the spot ,
Last edited by toneh; 30 July 2012 at 09:03 PM.