The great mapping rip off
30 July 2012, 09:17 PM
#241
For a small "tweak" of a decat I would start with a completely reworked file. Completely different fuel and ignition maps, all the closed loop fuelling changed, all the knock control changed, boost control (obviously) and then I have to work on the basis that the car needs checking completely, including part throttle, low boost high boost transients etc. So as I have said, if I haven't mapped the myself in the past it gets treated as fresh work and charged accordingly.
I do not assume that any previous setup was correct, as I've already pointed out, experience has shown this to be a fools errand on many occasions. ECU swaps, used engines, dodgy OEM parts (worn turbos, misreading MAFs etc), poor induction kits and a variety other things easily overlooked by the owner can drastically change what's going on.
So yes billy whiz is bundled under the same umbrella, he gets the same attention that i would give to any job, only the tools might be different and the results less glamourous.
I do not assume that any previous setup was correct, as I've already pointed out, experience has shown this to be a fools errand on many occasions. ECU swaps, used engines, dodgy OEM parts (worn turbos, misreading MAFs etc), poor induction kits and a variety other things easily overlooked by the owner can drastically change what's going on.
So yes billy whiz is bundled under the same umbrella, he gets the same attention that i would give to any job, only the tools might be different and the results less glamourous.
30 July 2012, 09:26 PM
#242
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I think you're missing the point that Paul made, though. For discussion's sake, I would pay the same price as Lateral Performance for a remap
Maybe not, but time cost's money.
Put it this way, I'm only a delivery driver, pay is crap - only just above minimum wage now. My employer, can't afford, well they could but they wouldn't pay it, to get me to work overtime. I value MY spare time that highly.
30 July 2012, 09:27 PM
#243
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If someone wants to come to me for an Ecutek map, or an Apexi PowerFC map both of which will hopefully be straightforward, they are paying for MY time. Unfortunately they will be competing for my time with someone that want's a complicated map from scratch on a MoTeC or a Syvecs, so they will pretty much pay the same rate.
The other thing that you completely ignore is that you're assuming that the map you're going to work on is correct in the first place. I've been had over so many times by this I will not charge a map on the basis of a "tweak" unless I have previously mapped it. Far to many times I've quote £150 for example to map for say a turbo and headers swap only to find what was already on there was a complete mess. In the case of Ecutek the system is deliberately set up so that you can't download someone elses Ecutek maps.
If it takes me less time I generally charge less, if I quote a fixed price the job turns into a mare, I very rarely charge more. Although I have base maps, EVERY car is different, and on the rare occasion a base map is very good on another car I still go through motions and spend the time on the car. If my base maps are good, it's because I do have a lot of experience and knowledge and that's what people are paying for, and I've done my fair share of nightmare jobs to spot them as they come up in future and not cause a massive headache. Again, customers are paying for that and the more time spent actually mapping the car and the less time spend problem solving the better the resulting map is.
Then there is a question of support. Some people don't realise or even care, but most people will then be back for ongoing technical support (that I believe they are entitled to) from their mapper on a variety of things besides the full power running of their car. Some people don't make enough of this, some people take the pith a little, but overall it is another chunk of time that will go out essentially unbilled.
Then there is comeback. I have mapped cars that have been back to the original mapper a few times and is still not right, or wasn't right and the mapper wants more money to fix his own work. So in the event that something isn't right, a proper mapper should provide this backup, and it eats into our time regardless of blame there is only so much time to go around.
With regards to cost, I would say I have spent £15k on software, much of it Ecutek and licenses on top. That gets me support, which although rarely used is sometimes essential to get the job done especially if the car is a new revision and something in the map definition isn't quite right, or there is a new function in the OEM that needs some control over where we didn't have to in the past. I have spend about £60k on rolling road and install and could really do with spending another £20k to reinstall it proper in a new cell in my new premises.
My insurance for the year is about £4500, it used to be more like £7500. Up until last year I was paying £48k per year in rent, rates and service charge.
I will consume on average one laptop every 2 years before it literally falls a part or has spurious errors that just start costing too much to sort.
I will spend abut £2k per year on more software to support new cars/manufacturers or changes to interface types.
I have purchased interfaces for GEMS, Apexi, MoTeC (x3), Ecutek (many), Openport cables, 12v laptop charges, but I'm still on my first LM-1 wideband I bought about 7 years ago although it's had about 3 leads, 2 serial leads, 3 exhaust probes (one melted on a dyno!) and about 30 wideband sensors in that time (thats over£2k in total spend on measuring AFR over the years).
I have home made det cans, Phormula electronic det cans, inner ear ear phones and have gone through about 5 pairs of ear defenders that have been lost or melted.
I don't map a massive number of cars these days, but some out there are chewing through 3-4 a day quit often, some turn cars round very quickly and the results reflect the lack of time and loving care (best way of putting it).
I am quite happy that I'm not ripping people off myself, although I've seen enough work that doesn't reflect the same value for money, some from now defunct tuners, some from "a mate that does remaps" and some from people that probably were just having a bad day or bad luck.
I started by mapping my own car. But it was Eproms and I wrote my own program to download the OEM maps, made my own interface, my own rom boards (albeit from someone elses schematic) and pulled out a load of the maps from simply "seeing" them in the hex. I made my own eprom programmer (from a kit) and manually split the rom files to fit on two eproms with odd and even bytes. What a hero I was! But really I was just getting into it and learning as I went, but I do have an engineering background, I did actually go to Loughborough Uni and studied Automotive engineering. I tuned racking kart engines when I was 15 and rebuilt my first bike engine when I was 16.
After seeing "Show me your money" I realise I should have just become a plumber or a drain man, us mappers are small fry compared to those guys when it comes to charging.
After writing all that I'm seriously considering putting my prices up!
The other thing that you completely ignore is that you're assuming that the map you're going to work on is correct in the first place. I've been had over so many times by this I will not charge a map on the basis of a "tweak" unless I have previously mapped it. Far to many times I've quote £150 for example to map for say a turbo and headers swap only to find what was already on there was a complete mess. In the case of Ecutek the system is deliberately set up so that you can't download someone elses Ecutek maps.
If it takes me less time I generally charge less, if I quote a fixed price the job turns into a mare, I very rarely charge more. Although I have base maps, EVERY car is different, and on the rare occasion a base map is very good on another car I still go through motions and spend the time on the car. If my base maps are good, it's because I do have a lot of experience and knowledge and that's what people are paying for, and I've done my fair share of nightmare jobs to spot them as they come up in future and not cause a massive headache. Again, customers are paying for that and the more time spent actually mapping the car and the less time spend problem solving the better the resulting map is.
Then there is a question of support. Some people don't realise or even care, but most people will then be back for ongoing technical support (that I believe they are entitled to) from their mapper on a variety of things besides the full power running of their car. Some people don't make enough of this, some people take the pith a little, but overall it is another chunk of time that will go out essentially unbilled.
Then there is comeback. I have mapped cars that have been back to the original mapper a few times and is still not right, or wasn't right and the mapper wants more money to fix his own work. So in the event that something isn't right, a proper mapper should provide this backup, and it eats into our time regardless of blame there is only so much time to go around.
With regards to cost, I would say I have spent £15k on software, much of it Ecutek and licenses on top. That gets me support, which although rarely used is sometimes essential to get the job done especially if the car is a new revision and something in the map definition isn't quite right, or there is a new function in the OEM that needs some control over where we didn't have to in the past. I have spend about £60k on rolling road and install and could really do with spending another £20k to reinstall it proper in a new cell in my new premises.
My insurance for the year is about £4500, it used to be more like £7500. Up until last year I was paying £48k per year in rent, rates and service charge.
I will consume on average one laptop every 2 years before it literally falls a part or has spurious errors that just start costing too much to sort.
I will spend abut £2k per year on more software to support new cars/manufacturers or changes to interface types.
I have purchased interfaces for GEMS, Apexi, MoTeC (x3), Ecutek (many), Openport cables, 12v laptop charges, but I'm still on my first LM-1 wideband I bought about 7 years ago although it's had about 3 leads, 2 serial leads, 3 exhaust probes (one melted on a dyno!) and about 30 wideband sensors in that time (thats over£2k in total spend on measuring AFR over the years).
I have home made det cans, Phormula electronic det cans, inner ear ear phones and have gone through about 5 pairs of ear defenders that have been lost or melted.
I don't map a massive number of cars these days, but some out there are chewing through 3-4 a day quit often, some turn cars round very quickly and the results reflect the lack of time and loving care (best way of putting it).
I am quite happy that I'm not ripping people off myself, although I've seen enough work that doesn't reflect the same value for money, some from now defunct tuners, some from "a mate that does remaps" and some from people that probably were just having a bad day or bad luck.
I started by mapping my own car. But it was Eproms and I wrote my own program to download the OEM maps, made my own interface, my own rom boards (albeit from someone elses schematic) and pulled out a load of the maps from simply "seeing" them in the hex. I made my own eprom programmer (from a kit) and manually split the rom files to fit on two eproms with odd and even bytes. What a hero I was! But really I was just getting into it and learning as I went, but I do have an engineering background, I did actually go to Loughborough Uni and studied Automotive engineering. I tuned racking kart engines when I was 15 and rebuilt my first bike engine when I was 16.
After seeing "Show me your money" I realise I should have just become a plumber or a drain man, us mappers are small fry compared to those guys when it comes to charging.
After writing all that I'm seriously considering putting my prices up!
Don't put your prices up yet I got an f-con pro I need sorting once I've fitted the new turbo. I would map it myself but can't find an IPhone app to do it from :-)
30 July 2012, 09:35 PM
#244
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If someone wants to come to me for an Ecutek map, or an Apexi PowerFC map both of which will hopefully be straightforward, they are paying for MY time. Unfortunately they will be competing for my time with someone that want's a complicated map from scratch on a MoTeC or a Syvecs, so they will pretty much pay the same rate.
The other thing that you completely ignore is that you're assuming that the map you're going to work on is correct in the first place. I've been had over so many times by this I will not charge a map on the basis of a "tweak" unless I have previously mapped it. Far to many times I've quote £150 for example to map for say a turbo and headers swap only to find what was already on there was a complete mess. In the case of Ecutek the system is deliberately set up so that you can't download someone elses Ecutek maps.
If it takes me less time I generally charge less, if I quote a fixed price the job turns into a mare, I very rarely charge more. Although I have base maps, EVERY car is different, and on the rare occasion a base map is very good on another car I still go through motions and spend the time on the car. If my base maps are good, it's because I do have a lot of experience and knowledge and that's what people are paying for, and I've done my fair share of nightmare jobs to spot them as they come up in future and not cause a massive headache. Again, customers are paying for that and the more time spent actually mapping the car and the less time spend problem solving the better the resulting map is.
Then there is a question of support. Some people don't realise or even care, but most people will then be back for ongoing technical support (that I believe they are entitled to) from their mapper on a variety of things besides the full power running of their car. Some people don't make enough of this, some people take the pith a little, but overall it is another chunk of time that will go out essentially unbilled.
Then there is comeback. I have mapped cars that have been back to the original mapper a few times and is still not right, or wasn't right and the mapper wants more money to fix his own work. So in the event that something isn't right, a proper mapper should provide this backup, and it eats into our time regardless of blame there is only so much time to go around.
With regards to cost, I would say I have spent £15k on software, much of it Ecutek and licenses on top. That gets me support, which although rarely used is sometimes essential to get the job done especially if the car is a new revision and something in the map definition isn't quite right, or there is a new function in the OEM that needs some control over where we didn't have to in the past. I have spend about £60k on rolling road and install and could really do with spending another £20k to reinstall it proper in a new cell in my new premises.
My insurance for the year is about £4500, it used to be more like £7500. Up until last year I was paying £48k per year in rent, rates and service charge.
I will consume on average one laptop every 2 years before it literally falls a part or has spurious errors that just start costing too much to sort.
I will spend abut £2k per year on more software to support new cars/manufacturers or changes to interface types.
I have purchased interfaces for GEMS, Apexi, MoTeC (x3), Ecutek (many), Openport cables, 12v laptop charges, but I'm still on my first LM-1 wideband I bought about 7 years ago although it's had about 3 leads, 2 serial leads, 3 exhaust probes (one melted on a dyno!) and about 30 wideband sensors in that time (thats over£2k in total spend on measuring AFR over the years).
I have home made det cans, Phormula electronic det cans, inner ear ear phones and have gone through about 5 pairs of ear defenders that have been lost or melted.
I don't map a massive number of cars these days, but some out there are chewing through 3-4 a day quit often, some turn cars round very quickly and the results reflect the lack of time and loving care (best way of putting it).
I am quite happy that I'm not ripping people off myself, although I've seen enough work that doesn't reflect the same value for money, some from now defunct tuners, some from "a mate that does remaps" and some from people that probably were just having a bad day or bad luck.
I started by mapping my own car. But it was Eproms and I wrote my own program to download the OEM maps, made my own interface, my own rom boards (albeit from someone elses schematic) and pulled out a load of the maps from simply "seeing" them in the hex. I made my own eprom programmer (from a kit) and manually split the rom files to fit on two eproms with odd and even bytes. What a hero I was! But really I was just getting into it and learning as I went, but I do have an engineering background, I did actually go to Loughborough Uni and studied Automotive engineering. I tuned racking kart engines when I was 15 and rebuilt my first bike engine when I was 16.
After seeing "Show me your money" I realise I should have just become a plumber or a drain man, us mappers are small fry compared to those guys when it comes to charging.
After writing all that I'm seriously considering putting my prices up!
The other thing that you completely ignore is that you're assuming that the map you're going to work on is correct in the first place. I've been had over so many times by this I will not charge a map on the basis of a "tweak" unless I have previously mapped it. Far to many times I've quote £150 for example to map for say a turbo and headers swap only to find what was already on there was a complete mess. In the case of Ecutek the system is deliberately set up so that you can't download someone elses Ecutek maps.
If it takes me less time I generally charge less, if I quote a fixed price the job turns into a mare, I very rarely charge more. Although I have base maps, EVERY car is different, and on the rare occasion a base map is very good on another car I still go through motions and spend the time on the car. If my base maps are good, it's because I do have a lot of experience and knowledge and that's what people are paying for, and I've done my fair share of nightmare jobs to spot them as they come up in future and not cause a massive headache. Again, customers are paying for that and the more time spent actually mapping the car and the less time spend problem solving the better the resulting map is.
Then there is a question of support. Some people don't realise or even care, but most people will then be back for ongoing technical support (that I believe they are entitled to) from their mapper on a variety of things besides the full power running of their car. Some people don't make enough of this, some people take the pith a little, but overall it is another chunk of time that will go out essentially unbilled.
Then there is comeback. I have mapped cars that have been back to the original mapper a few times and is still not right, or wasn't right and the mapper wants more money to fix his own work. So in the event that something isn't right, a proper mapper should provide this backup, and it eats into our time regardless of blame there is only so much time to go around.
With regards to cost, I would say I have spent £15k on software, much of it Ecutek and licenses on top. That gets me support, which although rarely used is sometimes essential to get the job done especially if the car is a new revision and something in the map definition isn't quite right, or there is a new function in the OEM that needs some control over where we didn't have to in the past. I have spend about £60k on rolling road and install and could really do with spending another £20k to reinstall it proper in a new cell in my new premises.
My insurance for the year is about £4500, it used to be more like £7500. Up until last year I was paying £48k per year in rent, rates and service charge.
I will consume on average one laptop every 2 years before it literally falls a part or has spurious errors that just start costing too much to sort.
I will spend abut £2k per year on more software to support new cars/manufacturers or changes to interface types.
I have purchased interfaces for GEMS, Apexi, MoTeC (x3), Ecutek (many), Openport cables, 12v laptop charges, but I'm still on my first LM-1 wideband I bought about 7 years ago although it's had about 3 leads, 2 serial leads, 3 exhaust probes (one melted on a dyno!) and about 30 wideband sensors in that time (thats over£2k in total spend on measuring AFR over the years).
I have home made det cans, Phormula electronic det cans, inner ear ear phones and have gone through about 5 pairs of ear defenders that have been lost or melted.
I don't map a massive number of cars these days, but some out there are chewing through 3-4 a day quit often, some turn cars round very quickly and the results reflect the lack of time and loving care (best way of putting it).
I am quite happy that I'm not ripping people off myself, although I've seen enough work that doesn't reflect the same value for money, some from now defunct tuners, some from "a mate that does remaps" and some from people that probably were just having a bad day or bad luck.
I started by mapping my own car. But it was Eproms and I wrote my own program to download the OEM maps, made my own interface, my own rom boards (albeit from someone elses schematic) and pulled out a load of the maps from simply "seeing" them in the hex. I made my own eprom programmer (from a kit) and manually split the rom files to fit on two eproms with odd and even bytes. What a hero I was! But really I was just getting into it and learning as I went, but I do have an engineering background, I did actually go to Loughborough Uni and studied Automotive engineering. I tuned racking kart engines when I was 15 and rebuilt my first bike engine when I was 16.
After seeing "Show me your money" I realise I should have just become a plumber or a drain man, us mappers are small fry compared to those guys when it comes to charging.
After writing all that I'm seriously considering putting my prices up!
Paul has mapped and set up my MoTeC on my car with 8 x inj, gt40 to a billet gt35 with all the wiring and other changes there needs to be adjustments and this takes time as nothing is straight forward even with just Paul being the only mapper on the car. Ive met Paul at RCM at his place (ZEN) and at Stevens (SDM) on several occasion to get the car sorted ... For all his hrs and hrs of work staying till almost midnight to get a good outcome/result and when he invoiced me there was a big difference in time spent Vs time charged .. I was a very happy chappy so how on earth can anyone say that mappers charge over the top ?? It just simply not the case!!
30 July 2012, 09:39 PM
#245
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30 July 2012, 09:46 PM
#246
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For a small "tweak" of a decat I would start with a completely reworked file. Completely different fuel and ignition maps, all the closed loop fuelling changed, all the knock control changed, boost control (obviously) and then I have to work on the basis that the car needs checking completely, including part throttle, low boost high boost transients etc. So as I have said, if I haven't mapped the myself in the past it gets treated as fresh work and charged accordingly.
I do not assume that any previous setup was correct, as I've already pointed out, experience has shown this to be a fools errand on many occasions. ECU swaps, used engines, dodgy OEM parts (worn turbos, misreading MAFs etc), poor induction kits and a variety other things easily overlooked by the owner can drastically change what's going on.
So yes billy whiz is bundled under the same umbrella, he gets the same attention that i would give to any job, only the tools might be different and the results less glamourous.
I do not assume that any previous setup was correct, as I've already pointed out, experience has shown this to be a fools errand on many occasions. ECU swaps, used engines, dodgy OEM parts (worn turbos, misreading MAFs etc), poor induction kits and a variety other things easily overlooked by the owner can drastically change what's going on.
So yes billy whiz is bundled under the same umbrella, he gets the same attention that i would give to any job, only the tools might be different and the results less glamourous.
I've no reason to doubt that , but I've got a feeling you're one of a few exceptions , as I'm sure you know
Well you've put big investments in both time and money and seem very conscientious of your work ,
You seem very decent and I appreciate your time and comments , explanations to why you personally charge what you do
Cheers Paul much appreciated
30 July 2012, 09:52 PM
#247
i think that post (244) has just answered the OP question. Do you agree Toneh ? The reason they charge that is because they go through everything , rather than just tweak the parameters that changed with the simple mod ? I am happy with that reply more than any other "paying for experience" replies.
30 July 2012, 09:54 PM
#248
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toneh,
Can you just reiterate what your points are and their specific context, which appear to be ultimately about how much we get charged for specific elements of mapping work.
Just to be clear, as it may have been lost in the nine pages thus far.
Can you just reiterate what your points are and their specific context, which appear to be ultimately about how much we get charged for specific elements of mapping work.
Just to be clear, as it may have been lost in the nine pages thus far.
30 July 2012, 10:01 PM
#249
I was looking through paperwork for my car earlier and couldn't believe the price of the ECU-TEK remap. £550 + VAT for the map and license and £150 + VAT for a rolling road session. Over £800 for 47bhp increase!
I personally think there should be more group mapping sessions to bring the costs down.
I personally think there should be more group mapping sessions to bring the costs down.
30 July 2012, 10:03 PM
#250
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i think that post (244) has just answered the OP question. Do you agree Toneh ? The reason they charge that is because they go through everything , rather than just tweak the parameters that changed with the simple mod ? I am happy with that reply more than any other "paying for experience" replies.
And for that he must be applauded
If i get more replies from the mappers like that I'll get my hole ready to crawl into
30 July 2012, 10:08 PM
#252
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I was looking through paperwork for my car earlier and couldn't believe the price of the ECU-TEK remap. £550 + VAT for the map and license and £150 + VAT for a rolling road session. Over £800 for 47bhp increase!
I personally think there should be more group mapping sessions to bring the costs down.
I personally think there should be more group mapping sessions to bring the costs down.
Then a post like this that then the price seems ott again
30 July 2012, 10:10 PM
#253
Not quite.
If i am starting from an unknown point then I start from scratch, and I will make that clear to anyone that enquires.
If I am tweaking a map for a small spec change and I mapped it last, that means that I will be familiar with the car, I will know that the spec change should be the only changes to be accounted for and in that case I would adjust what I needed from the map i last put in place.
In cases like that (small tweak of my own map) map adjustments would start at around £100+vat but might go much higher if the spec change warranted it.
I think you will find that many pro tuners are in the same ball park, and those customers that build up a good working relationship with their mapper will get treated very fairly, and in return will also know to bring the car ready for mapping rather than ready for a days work just to make it suitable for mapping. Okay if you know you're going to have to do certain amount of (chargeable) work, but not good to have it sprung on you because someone brings a shed that they want mapping that needs lots of sorting first.
At the other end of the spectrum, there are cars that have blank ECUs that need configuring just so it knows the engine is turning, getting such cars to run and be fully functioning with all inputs and outputs correctly defined can take hours, and to reach the end of the job may take literally a few days.
Just one example of extra time required, is trying to map a car for 1.4 bar vs 2.4 bar. The 2.4 bar map still needs to be mapped up to 1.4bar, then a whole other chunk of work to go to 2.4 bar. While you may get a good idea of how the car should behave from the low boost work, you still need to go through everything.
Once you get into a full speed density map on an aftermarket ECU, the fuel mapping becomes a whole lot more difficult. You're used to starting with a fuel target map, and if your MAF scale and injector scaling are correct, you just need to change the numbers in the fuel map by your afr error and you'll be very close. Not so on speed density as you will need to manually input the injector opening time (Syvecs, Pectel, Simtek etc)or the airflow efficiency (Motec, Link etc).
Compare all this to paying £350-800 for a generic one-size fits all map by a man that doesn't even have the in house capability to edit the map, and I think it's very good value.
If i am starting from an unknown point then I start from scratch, and I will make that clear to anyone that enquires.
If I am tweaking a map for a small spec change and I mapped it last, that means that I will be familiar with the car, I will know that the spec change should be the only changes to be accounted for and in that case I would adjust what I needed from the map i last put in place.
In cases like that (small tweak of my own map) map adjustments would start at around £100+vat but might go much higher if the spec change warranted it.
I think you will find that many pro tuners are in the same ball park, and those customers that build up a good working relationship with their mapper will get treated very fairly, and in return will also know to bring the car ready for mapping rather than ready for a days work just to make it suitable for mapping. Okay if you know you're going to have to do certain amount of (chargeable) work, but not good to have it sprung on you because someone brings a shed that they want mapping that needs lots of sorting first.
At the other end of the spectrum, there are cars that have blank ECUs that need configuring just so it knows the engine is turning, getting such cars to run and be fully functioning with all inputs and outputs correctly defined can take hours, and to reach the end of the job may take literally a few days.
Just one example of extra time required, is trying to map a car for 1.4 bar vs 2.4 bar. The 2.4 bar map still needs to be mapped up to 1.4bar, then a whole other chunk of work to go to 2.4 bar. While you may get a good idea of how the car should behave from the low boost work, you still need to go through everything.
Once you get into a full speed density map on an aftermarket ECU, the fuel mapping becomes a whole lot more difficult. You're used to starting with a fuel target map, and if your MAF scale and injector scaling are correct, you just need to change the numbers in the fuel map by your afr error and you'll be very close. Not so on speed density as you will need to manually input the injector opening time (Syvecs, Pectel, Simtek etc)or the airflow efficiency (Motec, Link etc).
Compare all this to paying £350-800 for a generic one-size fits all map by a man that doesn't even have the in house capability to edit the map, and I think it's very good value.
So you're saying you will start from scratch For a tweak ( but I take its not a £150 tweak for that )
I've no reason to doubt that , but I've got a feeling you're one of a few exceptions , as I'm sure you know
Well you've put big investments in both time and money and seem very conscientious of your work ,
You seem very decent and I appreciate your time and comments , explanations to why you personally charge what you do
Cheers Paul much appreciated
I've no reason to doubt that , but I've got a feeling you're one of a few exceptions , as I'm sure you know
Well you've put big investments in both time and money and seem very conscientious of your work ,
You seem very decent and I appreciate your time and comments , explanations to why you personally charge what you do
Cheers Paul much appreciated
30 July 2012, 10:11 PM
#254
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Toneh,
You're right... you're a proper thick **** (joke!)
Explain what specific elements (give some examples) of why you think example x is being over charged for?
For example:
1) are you suggesting that if I have my car remapped from scratch and I get charged £500. That is or is not acceptable in your opinion.
2) what do you mean by the term "map tweak" as this is what you refer to as being charged £150 for.
Just examples of what you think is acceptable (and the context of that example) and what you think isn't.
You're right... you're a proper thick **** (joke!)
Explain what specific elements (give some examples) of why you think example x is being over charged for?
For example:
1) are you suggesting that if I have my car remapped from scratch and I get charged £500. That is or is not acceptable in your opinion.
2) what do you mean by the term "map tweak" as this is what you refer to as being charged £150 for.
Just examples of what you think is acceptable (and the context of that example) and what you think isn't.
30 July 2012, 10:22 PM
#255
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Not quite.
If i am starting from an unknown point then I start from scratch, and I will make that clear to anyone that enquires.
If I am tweaking a map for a small spec change and I mapped it last, that means that I will be familiar with the car, I will know that the spec change should be the only changes to be accounted for and in that case I would adjust what I needed from the map i last put in place.
In cases like that (small tweak of my own map) map adjustments would start at around £100+vat but might go much higher if the spec change warranted it.
I think you will find that many pro tuners are in the same ball park, and those customers that build up a good working relationship with their mapper will get treated very fairly, and in return will also know to bring the car ready for mapping rather than ready for a days work just to make it suitable for mapping. Okay if you know you're going to have to do certain amount of (chargeable) work, but not good to have it sprung on you because someone brings a shed that they want mapping that needs lots of sorting first.
At the other end of the spectrum, there are cars that have blank ECUs that need configuring just so it knows the engine is turning, getting such cars to run and be fully functioning with all inputs and outputs correctly defined can take hours, and to reach the end of the job may take literally a few days.
Just one example of extra time required, is trying to map a car for 1.4 bar vs 2.4 bar. The 2.4 bar map still needs to be mapped up to 1.4bar, then a whole other chunk of work to go to 2.4 bar. While you may get a good idea of how the car should behave from the low boost work, you still need to go through everything.
Once you get into a full speed density map on an aftermarket ECU, the fuel mapping becomes a whole lot more difficult. You're used to starting with a fuel target map, and if your MAF scale and injector scaling are correct, you just need to change the numbers in the fuel map by your afr error and you'll be very close. Not so on speed density as you will need to manually input the injector opening time (Syvecs, Pectel, Simtek etc)or the airflow efficiency (Motec, Link etc).
Compare all this to paying £350-800 for a generic one-size fits all map by a man that doesn't even have the in house capability to edit the map, and I think it's very good value.
If i am starting from an unknown point then I start from scratch, and I will make that clear to anyone that enquires.
If I am tweaking a map for a small spec change and I mapped it last, that means that I will be familiar with the car, I will know that the spec change should be the only changes to be accounted for and in that case I would adjust what I needed from the map i last put in place.
In cases like that (small tweak of my own map) map adjustments would start at around £100+vat but might go much higher if the spec change warranted it.
I think you will find that many pro tuners are in the same ball park, and those customers that build up a good working relationship with their mapper will get treated very fairly, and in return will also know to bring the car ready for mapping rather than ready for a days work just to make it suitable for mapping. Okay if you know you're going to have to do certain amount of (chargeable) work, but not good to have it sprung on you because someone brings a shed that they want mapping that needs lots of sorting first.
At the other end of the spectrum, there are cars that have blank ECUs that need configuring just so it knows the engine is turning, getting such cars to run and be fully functioning with all inputs and outputs correctly defined can take hours, and to reach the end of the job may take literally a few days.
Just one example of extra time required, is trying to map a car for 1.4 bar vs 2.4 bar. The 2.4 bar map still needs to be mapped up to 1.4bar, then a whole other chunk of work to go to 2.4 bar. While you may get a good idea of how the car should behave from the low boost work, you still need to go through everything.
Once you get into a full speed density map on an aftermarket ECU, the fuel mapping becomes a whole lot more difficult. You're used to starting with a fuel target map, and if your MAF scale and injector scaling are correct, you just need to change the numbers in the fuel map by your afr error and you'll be very close. Not so on speed density as you will need to manually input the injector opening time (Syvecs, Pectel, Simtek etc)or the airflow efficiency (Motec, Link etc).
Compare all this to paying £350-800 for a generic one-size fits all map by a man that doesn't even have the in house capability to edit the map, and I think it's very good value.
As you've read I've mapped my own car and am now running carberry mafless
I went on the assumption that it's a generic map based for use on usdm cars so i started working through it so I could get my car running nice using that rom
I've tweaked logged flashed and gone through and through it to get it (what I think is spot on
Now I thought it was easy and consider myself not the sharpest tool in the box
But is it harder than I think and I've achieved somthing that's not considered the norm , thus making my views what they are ( I, e mapping is easy )
If you know what I mean
30 July 2012, 10:24 PM
#256
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This is quite a thread, i have to say i agree with some points but others i dont, i personally find mapping my cars very very easy i have all the tools i need and can achieve a satisfactory tweek for say a turbo swap in around an hour, i simply follow a few simple rules,.
RULE 1, Phone duncan
RULE 2, pay the man
RULE 3,
RULE 1, Phone duncan
RULE 2, pay the man
RULE 3,
30 July 2012, 10:30 PM
#257
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http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2364670 - I fail to see how you can say you've 'mapped' your car and not used a wideband o2 sensor to fine tune your fueling!
Have you built a SD map without a WB?
Have you built a SD map without a WB?
30 July 2012, 10:42 PM
#259
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http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2364670 - I fail to see how you can say you've 'mapped' your car and not used a wideband o2 sensor to fine tune your fueling!
Have you built a SD map without a WB?
Have you built a SD map without a WB?
It runs like a dog and knocking
Members have seen the car members have seen the map members have been in the car
Use your noggin mate
30 July 2012, 10:42 PM
#260
Scooby Regular
The ScoobyNet Community Police are opening up the case against the "mapping slagger".
Court has been adjourned until the respective case notes have been compiled.
The CPS appear to think they have a case to make in the interest of the ScoobyNet community.
Court has been adjourned until the respective case notes have been compiled.
The CPS appear to think they have a case to make in the interest of the ScoobyNet community.
30 July 2012, 10:50 PM
#264
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Wow this is exactly what I mean, Tooners everywhere, hahahaha, this one does not even has a wideband. Good luck with mapping your own car, please don't touch others. Don't want to read threads with engine blown up after remap.
30 July 2012, 10:55 PM
#266
This is quite a thread, i have to say i agree with some points but others i dont, i personally find mapping my cars very very easy i have all the tools i need and can achieve a satisfactory tweek for say a turbo swap in around an hour, i simply follow a few simple rules,.
RULE 1, Phone duncan
RULE 2, pay the man
RULE 3,
RULE 1, Phone duncan
RULE 2, pay the man
RULE 3,
30 July 2012, 11:00 PM
#267
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I just read your thread on NASIOC, sorry to say this but you must be kidding, I can't believe it, this is all a joke right? It seems you read some stuff on the internetz got a mapping cable and think you can calibrate a car. Sorry you are exposed, you brought this on yourself by opening this thread. Worst of all people try to help you and you ignore them and think you know better cause your car still drives fine. 
30 July 2012, 11:01 PM
#268
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i believe Andy Forrest and JGM have hung up their mapping gloves because they are unable to compete with the prices of Dodgy Bob McMayday from number 22 down the road...the last i heard, Bob Rawle had an interview at the local hospital for a job as a surgeon..although he isnt qualified he got the popular game 'Operation' for christmas when he was 8yrs old so he thought 'it cant be all that hard'
30 July 2012, 11:01 PM
#269
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i think that post (244) has just answered the OP question. Do you agree Toneh ? The reason they charge that is because they go through everything , rather than just tweak the parameters that changed with the simple mod ? I am happy with that reply more than any other "paying for experience" replies.
30 July 2012, 11:13 PM
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I just read your thread on NASIOC, sorry to say this but you must be kidding, I can't believe it, this is all a joke right? It seems you read some stuff on the internetz got a mapping cable and think you can calibrate a car. Sorry you are exposed, you brought this on yourself by opening this thread. Worst of all people try to help you and you ignore them and think you know better cause your car still drives fine.
It makes me laugh , and it makes it even worse that I can do it with limited equipment and knowledge
So if my cars not blown up and it runs like it does
Whats going on , like I said somthings not right
I'm not a mapper its a hobby ,
My car drives fine what do you want me to say ?