Evolution Stu

iTrader: (2)

Many years of experience, dealing with professionals who dont know, let alone enthusiastic amateurs.
And to back that up... I haven't seen many amateur mappers popping on here answering the questions. Have you?

I am not saying a DIY mapper "cant" know this, of course they can, but I am betting that the vast majority do not.

No I didn't, and still don't, and I will say again, I love enthusiasts learning about stuff like this and enjoy helping them to achieve their aims. Safely.

Evolution Stu

iTrader: (2)

No, having said all this, I don't even map bloody Subaru's to any great extent.
But I can recommend Paul @ Zen.

john banks

Which cars and injectors in particular are you suspecting this on? It is extremely rare for the Evos and GTRs to blow up on basic power upgrades with maxxed injectors, I struggle to recall any examples.

subzerokent

iTrader: (1)

Funny that a jgm has recommended him too as I'm running an f-con pro

One thought did cross my mind that if as originally started the mobile mappers are rip off merchants why would one recomend me to speak to someone else for my map ?

In my option each person to there own trade I do car Ac and rectify loads of work done by someone that think they know what there doing. When they clearly dont

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

This is most definatly where the expertise and knowledge comes in to play, and there are as in my previous post, very few mappers with the capabilities and knowledge to do this correctly, and is the point at which the wheat gets seperated from the chaff.

I think we are wondering slightly into the wrong territory here, and yet again those with superior knowledge are showing us mere mortals just how clever they are and baffalling us dumbo's with science and acronyms which is fine if thats what floats your boat, but missing the Main point of the thread which in my view is a valid one.

Prodrive ppp anybody, which AGAIN is a one size fits all, add a few light mods, reflash the ecu and away you go, i'm not sure about anyone else, but i have never seen or heard of a main dealer having a rolling road and in house specialist mapper solely for the purpose of making sure they get the best out of the ppp upgrade.

It's ok guys, i don't expect anyone to address this point on account it would actually prove what the op is saying, in that they don't go bang and it is possible to do your own tweeks to a map after fitting basic mods, which is what DIY mapping is all about, instead of having your pants pulled down by one of the many profiteers in the subaru tuning world, which would not be too bad if after it went pop they held their hands up, but i have heard and seen first hand what happens when things go wrong, they blame anything but themselves and it's get your wallet out time again.

CREWJ

It's so nice to have some actual technical knowledge in a thread instead of the usual trolling

Takes me back to uni

Gigsy

Fair enough - I'm sure a lot of "professionals" do lack a fair bit of knowledge compared to what I would regard as "specialists".

The last few posts where things have got more technical have been very interesting (albeit off topic from the OP - who seems to have lost interest) and are exactly the sort of thing that would be good in a "mapping" section.

poolio74

I applaud you.Excellent post mate

Maz

iTrader: (34)

Well written Richard.

Gigsy

Ah, but how much development time did Prodrive put into that map? The PPP map still has plenty of margin for error.

I think that's the fine line really isn't it. The myth is that you will kill your engine if you map it yourself. The reality is that it's not necessarily true and it is possible to put a pretty decent map together yourself - not everyone will of course, but it is possible.

john banks

Paul, can't reply to your PM for some reason, but thanks. Wanted to know what are typical examples.

Evolution Stu

iTrader: (2)

But that upgrade, plus parts, is already a known entity. they aren't remapping it for you live, or doing a custom map to suit unusual parts, they are selling you a finished product that has already been developed professionally. Very different to the live mapping we are talking about here. (Or custom mapping in most cases.)

I already did... above.
But I also noted that its quite relevant how the final product is deemed as "safe" as that factor cannot be over emphasised.

toneh

iTrader: (1)

Right today is a new day and tbh I was letting the whole thread get to me
Please Let me clear a few points up
1st I've never said I'm an expert , I've even said I'm a little thick
( please point out where I've said other wise )
2nd I've never called anyone's work shoddy , poor , or anything else to that effect ( again please do point it out )
3) I do think on some occasions mappers are charging too much ( ripping folk off )
Example , de cat exhaust £300 remap , no it does not warrant that cost
4) when I say I know because I've done it doesnt mean ( I know it all ) it means I know the basic process , now if I can do it (yes ok to what some might say a dodgy standard ) and I'm stupid , why does it cost so much ?
Now like I said a full from scratch map does require skill of a high level I'm sure
But like most posts on here they require nothing more than what an experienced mapper could do in there sleep
A lot of guys out there could without doubt DIY map there own cars to account for small mods , with little or no risk , I would dare say there's been more damaged caused by diy mechanical mods and work , than DIY mapping , but how many times do you here folks jumping up and shouting , oh no dont touch your cam belt ?
I am an amateur , hobby , DIY with a little piece of knowledge from a very big picture
I know basic mapping ( as you say sort of ) maf scaling , using spread sheets , obviously all the logging , virtual dyno
I try and find as much info as I can and to be honest I'm not that bright and do find some things heavy going , but I'm gonna carry on and try to keep learning
I'm not the best at explaining and maybe not the most tactfull person with words and do come across as a gob ****e and know it all but that's how it comes across on here
In reality im a normal down to earth chap who if asked somthing I'll say I don't know mate
But what I will do is try and help others if I can
I'm sorry if I've offended folk or seem like I'm out to rock the boat , im not
I just feel sorry for the folk that are being priced out of doing what they love and come up with a solution , cheaper mapping , DIY , whatever
One last note , for the experienced mappers please if your gonna get technical could you try and simplify it a little ,,,please , I noticed a few things like part throttle and fuel transition to wot , how it was put made it seem far more complicated than it is ( if I understand right )
It's like I said last night , going from the lower /mid range to wot or wherever in a smoothe progression ( no big jumps in the map)
Yet again I'm probably wrong lol
Oh one last thing , a dedicated mapping section , good idea , with input from the experienced guys would be great ,

Tony

kenc

iTrader: (6)

I cant understand how any comparison in cost is being made between buying some cheap software and spending the next 6 months YOURSELF learning how to use it and making small changes bit by bit to your map and making a small gain hopefully, and paying a professional mapper 300 quid to get the maximum potential in 3 hrs... bang job done, no fuking around..??????

toneh

iTrader: (1)

It's simple a lot of people have got more time than money
And you don't buy the software it's free , if one of your points by saying its cheap is meaning inferior.(that's how it reads) it does the job what it was written for , in fact it does more than what you need
, dtc reading , logging, dyno
And don't forget you say small gain , most mods we do require a small tweak Anyway and another
Example , you could get a turbo , exhaust ,injectors for £3/400 now you go for an ecutek map and the licence alone will be half that , that's before you start
so what turns out to be a relatively cost effective way to mod your car is over doubled
Like I've said there's more risk to fitting a cam belt than mapping ,
Mapping you take your time and make small changes if you don't read or feel its right , start over and change /tweak it
Fit a belt wrong it's game over instantly ?
And a quick side note , in response to rob days sarcastic comment about building a stroker motor ,,, yes rob I am gonna be building a motor ( like ditchy has ) probably start it end of the year ,I'm looking at my options as we speak

Tony

Tidgy

wow do you realy think that?

you can get away with the timing being out when you first run it (within reason of course) so are able to verify if its correct, say belt jumps a tooth or somthing, runs crap and not ideal, but wont always take out the engine and can be checked without high load.

Difference is what you do when you run the map for the first time, you don't know where you stand and you have to load up the engine to find out whats its doing.

If you get the map wrong and your mid pull when it shows you can't react fast enough and boom, rod aims and fires itself at pedestrians. Thats exactly what happen with open source, applied, test pull, bang. When it goes wrong it goes wrong so fast you've had it.

Gigsy

"wow do you realy think that?"... to use your phrase.

Yes, it's possible to blow your engine if you get the map very wrong but in reality DIY mappers take their time to build up to the higher power runs - checking what's happening along the way. Again, just because it's DIY doesn't mean that it has to be cr@p.

Infected by sti

iTrader: (6)

But surely altering certain parameters within reason for a "tweak" your not going to cause your engine to go bang? Granted from a blank canvas i would imagine that you probably would cause some degree of internal damage if you had no idea of what you were doing, but like op said its just the minor stuff really that he's interested in altering such as an exhaust swap for example, so do you not think with a little knowledge, persistency an plenty of research in to the matter you could not get the car to run within tolerances?

Obviously not everyone can understand things on the same level as the next guy, but determination and drive can do alot for anybody and when you reach such a goal (should you get there) the end result is very pleasing and self rewarding and that to me is the name of the game in any walk of life you apply it to, anybody can learn if they really wanted to but like others have said it may take days,weeks, months or even years to acheive and even then your still learning or discovering different things, not everybody has the time, patience, or what ever else it may be and that is their choice, but apply yourself in any given subject and anything is possible

jazzyjembreaze

iTrader: (11)

Sorry to jump back on to the prodrive ppp but I distinctively remember many 2009/2010 2.5 's goin bang with reflashed ecu's fitted from upgrade packages -? Esp stateside

In house dyno & a talented mapper on spec would have prevented all those fails ( wich was a lot ) about 11% if I'm led to believe

toneh

iTrader: (1)

Hi mate. Like I've said I'm probably the worsed person to explain and write , I tend to come across all wrong , I've noticed your in notts too
How about I show you , you may have the same opinion you may change
Let me know if your interested and could meet up
Nothing to lose there mate ,plus you'll see I'm not the know it all gob ****e im said to be ?

MrNoisy

iTrader: (28)

No offence intended mate, but if you could get a turbo, exhaust and injectors all for £400 then you can be my personal shopper!!!
Most decent turbos start around the £3-400 mark on their own.
Was that a typo!?

For example, I paid £400 for my 20g, £280 for my exhaust, and another £140 for my 650 injectors. That's more than double the figure you quoted.
Even if we say the turbo's a VF35, the injectors are newage STI pinks, and the exhaust is a prodrive or similar item, I'd still estimate you're looking at at least £300 + £100 + £100.
Maybe a vf24 or 28, £50 less, but I think the point is, the more I spend on parts for my car the less likely I am to want to try and skimp on mapping.
If I was running a knackered high mileage classic or early bug then I might be tempted to have a go on my own, but not in my 55 plate blob.

Gigsy

Exactly, for example altering the map to compensate for overboost caused by fitting a decat up-pipe is less involved than creating a map from scratch for a 2.3 stroker with twin scroll turbo, FMIC, 3" decat exhaust etc.

The former is easily within the capabilities of a competent DIY-er. The latter would be more likely require the kind of experience a specialist professional mapper can offer.

Mine too, it's not impossible to get a VF35 and pink injectors for £3-400 but with an exhaust too it's a bit ambitious... though you could probably get a decat centre and up-pipe within the budget.

TBF... DIY'ing is not necessarily about skimping by the time you've invested in a wideband, OP2, det-cans, etc, you've spent about the same as an Open Source professional map at the very least. Most people that do it actually do it because they're interested in how to do it, not always because they're trying to save money.

MrNoisy

iTrader: (28)

I suspect most pros will have more invested in more than a few sensors, pieces of software and other equipment.
Paul's earlier comment spoke volumes on the other sorts of costs these guys incur.

Don't forget, these guys will have interfaces and tools for multiple models and makes. Many don't just map one marque - for example, I know JGM does VAG tuning as well.

Now that said, I'm not saying DIY'ing is bad, and yes we all have to start somewhere, but if someone is mapping my car, I'd expect them to have sufficient mechanical knowledge so that they would understand what every one of the terms in the software meant rather than having a "best guess" effort.

However, I guess everyone has to start somewhere, so my suggestion to people such as Tony here would be - if you want to showcase your talents and think you're getting better at what you do, get your car down to a rolling road and see what it's making, how it's running etc. and then compare it to a "pro" mapped car and see how close or far you are away.

Evolution Stu

iTrader: (2)

If only that were true. The top line "professional" wideband lambda sensors have a life of under 6 months and costs a tad over £500+vat, so there is a grand a year before we start. On teh dyno it can be expected to die in as little as 3 months, so double that to £2k per year just on lambdas. That is JUST the sensor of course. The unit itself comes in at over £6000. I assume your likely referring to something cheap like an LM1 etc.

As for other stuff, yeah, you can get good results from open source stuff for Subarus, but of course a professional mapper often covers all marques, and that can take you well into £100K per annum in licences etc.

Evolution Stu

iTrader: (2)

The problem with that, is your only comparing WOT graphs, which doesn't really translate into road performance at anything other than WOT.

I could easily showcase lots of DIY maps that made great power, sometimes more than my own but didnt even idle and returned about 10mpg.

Making a car fast is actually very easy, its the rest of the mapping that is hard, the cold starts, cold running, cruising, throttle progressions, fuel efficiency and of course longevity etc.

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

I find that really strange Stu. Why do they go out-of-kilter so soon?

We have a Crypton 4-gas analyser thats inspected every 12months to allow for MOT testing. Inside there is a wideband sensor. And I'm pretty sure the sensor itself is donkeys years old. Its supposed to be accurate to OIML Class 0 specifications. Which I'm led to belive is a pretty high accuracy (class zero is the highest precision of that standard).

Maybe the calibration offsets the sensors detrioration? Or the fact the the unit has a in-line filter (basically a replaceable paper fuel filter bulb) and a water trap to help preserve it. The unit also does self purge and auto-calibrate every now again, but I thinks thats more to do with compensating for changes in ambient air quality.


Having said that....it does cost over £5000 plus inspection charges to keep VOSA happy

To add insult its just a basic Dell Optiplex with a Celeron CPU housed in a yellow box and Crypton will try and charge you over £100 for a 2gig stick of DDR2 RAM, when ebuyer sells it for £20

Gigsy

You both missed my point slightly which was simply that a DIY mapper that buys something like an LM1 + OP2 + etc so that they can map they're own car will have spent as much as if they'd simply paid a pro to map the car for them. Therefore, it's not always about saving money... certainly wasn't saying they'd spend as much as a pro on equipment.

I'm also only talking about DIY mapping your own car (and in this case, Subaru).

toneh

iTrader: (1)

No offence taken mate , I didn't state what turbo
I paid £60 for my td05 16 including up pipe obviously s hand
120 for 3inch decat
And pinks are 120 ish
I'm not running pinks though
So for a budget build , or moneys tight so yes you can get the bits for peanuts
Like I've said to tidgy he's in notts , be a good idea to meet up and chat and then he's quite welcome to report back his findings and opinions

Evolution Stu

iTrader: (2)

MOT systems dont have 900 deg C exhaust gas going through them at supersonic speeds, nor do they have to put up with the immense mechanical and audible vibrations generated by a car at full load. then theres moisture, soot, yadda yadda.

The problem is, to read a wide range of AFR you really need the most accurate sensors out there, which are the NTK cells and then marry it to the correct electrical hardware to give strong repeatable accuracy between 6 and 150 AFR (0.4 to 10 Lambda) and you will then also get a usefull oxygen readout too, between (0 & 22% O2) which is very handy indeed for finding exhaust dilution and misfires.

The sensors get factory calibrated before they leave and come with a calibration certificate for the 14 points that make up a wideband sensors accuracy, and EVERY sensor is slightly different, which is why high end gear wont work accurately without the calibration data.

This data is then programmed into the main unit to match the sensor to the controller, and that is what gives you guaranteed sub 1% accuracy across its entire AFR range for its lifetime. Its nearer 0.5% IIRC around stoich.



Sorry yes, misunderstood you and yes, I totally agree with you.
DIY mapping is wicked fun, and gets the heart racing very well for what is essentially quite a cheap hobby once you have some trustable gear...

Tidgy

sure can do, scoobs up at clinic at min having work done but got the beemer lol

where abouts in notts are you?