The great mapping rip off
31 July 2012, 03:20 PM
#361
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Gigsy, I understand from this topic that you are a DIY mapper who enjoys playing with your car, so since I see your still browsing this topic, why not have a crack at my questions and advise how many DIY'ers you think know the answers. It should aid somewhat in explaining the knowledge you are paying a professional for.
We all know that huge time delays normally = "Googling" so just have a crack and see how you get on.
We all know that huge time delays normally = "Googling" so just have a crack and see how you get on.
Last edited by Gigsy; 31 July 2012 at 03:23 PM.
31 July 2012, 03:21 PM
#362
Suggesting that anyone imparting professional knowledge is scaremongering, just because you don't agree / or dont posses the knowledge to argue your point in an adult manner on a technical level does look rather silly to me, especially from someone who calls himself "Einstein" 
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31 July 2012, 03:29 PM
#363
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I suspect the impression that anyone is being put down is only due to them being uppish in the first place, and if they realised their own limitations they might get a better reception.
DIY mapping is great, with caveats. As is professional mapping.
More interesting to debate the caveats than polarise one good, one bad.
DIY mapping is great, with caveats. As is professional mapping.
More interesting to debate the caveats than polarise one good, one bad.
31 July 2012, 03:30 PM
#364
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I'm a DIY mapper who has clearly stated above I'm only scratching the surface of the subject and that is keen to learn more... rather than someone who clearly thinks they know it all and wants to throw their weight around and prove how clever they think they are. But if you feel you need to try and put me down simply because I disagreed with some of your points, you go right ahead.
31 July 2012, 03:33 PM
#367
Stu this alleged professional knowledge has been rebuffed by people way more knowledgeable than me (in the case of the magnetic sump plugs you SELL). In this thread you're suggesting DIY mappers/would be mappers are foolish to even dare to try something so technically complicated. Pray tell how many cars have you mapped (RR Printouts will help)? Unless we have some evidence of your self proclaimed professional knowledge I would suggest I'm not the only one looking silly. I would advise to ensure your claims hold up better than below.
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31 July 2012, 03:34 PM
#368
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In this thread you're suggesting DIY mappers/would be mappers are foolish to even dare to try something so technically complicated
Pray tell how many cars have you mapped (RR Printouts will help)? Unless we have some evidence of your self proclaimed professional knowledge I would suggest I'm not the only one looking silly.
I would advise to ensure your claims hold up better than below.
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31 July 2012, 03:36 PM
#369
[*]How many self mappers understand the induction stroke time base limitation?
You can't get a quart into a pint pot, especially when it's a moving target, except when you can.
[*]How many self mappers totally understand why you cant hold an injector flat out with a nice safe 85% duty cycle to get the required AFR with an inlet temperature of 50 deg C on a forced induction car?
You can, it very much depends on how fussy you are about everything being just so. If it were impossible single point injection wouldn't work at all. On an N/A car though I wouldn't be so sure of success.
Both of the above are very dependant on injection timing and atomisation. If you look at the stock timing on many stock Subaru ECUs you will see the intake is closed for injection.
[*]How many self mappers out there understand why you cant do the same as the above with an engine coolant temperature of 110 degrees C?
Is that a coolant temp of 110ºC or an inlet port temp of 110ºC?
[*]How many even know the real mothercare basics, like the difference between detonation and pre-ignition?
One is pink, the other is not.
[*]Do they understand the most critical aspect of calibrating spark advance? (which is MBT)
Just crank the timing up tell you get no more power, it's the EFI university way of melting engines!
[*]How many don't know that at part throttle you are very likely to reach BLD before they reach MBT?
Or maybe not, part throttle is something that needs to be tuned with same respect as WOT and the end result comes out in the wash.
[*]I wont waste any time by asking how many totally understand transient fuel correction, and it would be an even larger waste of time to ask about transient spark correction.
It's well and good understanding it, but you can only do what the ECU or tools allows you to do.
A good job of obfuscating though, the main thing it did was remind me to speak to Steve about Evolution Chips/Remaps!
You can't get a quart into a pint pot, especially when it's a moving target, except when you can.
[*]How many self mappers totally understand why you cant hold an injector flat out with a nice safe 85% duty cycle to get the required AFR with an inlet temperature of 50 deg C on a forced induction car?
You can, it very much depends on how fussy you are about everything being just so. If it were impossible single point injection wouldn't work at all. On an N/A car though I wouldn't be so sure of success.
Both of the above are very dependant on injection timing and atomisation. If you look at the stock timing on many stock Subaru ECUs you will see the intake is closed for injection.
[*]How many self mappers out there understand why you cant do the same as the above with an engine coolant temperature of 110 degrees C?
Is that a coolant temp of 110ºC or an inlet port temp of 110ºC?
[*]How many even know the real mothercare basics, like the difference between detonation and pre-ignition?
One is pink, the other is not.
[*]Do they understand the most critical aspect of calibrating spark advance? (which is MBT)
Just crank the timing up tell you get no more power, it's the EFI university way of melting engines!
[*]How many don't know that at part throttle you are very likely to reach BLD before they reach MBT?
Or maybe not, part throttle is something that needs to be tuned with same respect as WOT and the end result comes out in the wash.
[*]I wont waste any time by asking how many totally understand transient fuel correction, and it would be an even larger waste of time to ask about transient spark correction.
It's well and good understanding it, but you can only do what the ECU or tools allows you to do.
A good job of obfuscating though, the main thing it did was remind me to speak to Steve about Evolution Chips/Remaps!
31 July 2012, 03:36 PM
#370
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I agree, I certainly don't want to put anyone down, hell, I have made a living from teaching people about so called "Black Arts of tuning" for many years, and truly enjoy doing so, even though it technically shoots away at my own toes on a professional level, much to my business partners dismay. LOL
31 July 2012, 03:41 PM
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I suspect the impression that anyone is being put down is only due to them being uppish in the first place, and if they realised their own limitations they might get a better reception.
DIY mapping is great, with caveats. As is professional mapping.
More interesting to debate the caveats than polarise one good, one bad.
DIY mapping is great, with caveats. As is professional mapping.
More interesting to debate the caveats than polarise one good, one bad.
31 July 2012, 04:05 PM
#375
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I would guess that no DIY mappers are going to enter the affray sadly, so will just address these replies before i get on with ripping a wall out... 
Now that depends how you look at it. A turbocharged, 16000rpm Hyabusa engine for example has a tiny ISTB and as such requires massive injectors to make small power. Most DIY mappers wont understand, or care, why that is and just assume that 500cc = 400bhp no matter what. A pro mapper will look at the spec and say "no way... no point even starting this one mate"
Totally understood - but think along the lines of what happens to your 85% duration with a hot engine and hot intake air temps, when the owner takes it out and nails it up the motorway in January with 2deg C air temps and coolant temps still at 40 deg c, thus all the fuel temperature compensation tables are active and "trying" to add the required fuel for the task in hand... how is it going to add the extra fuel to a wide open injector?
Coolant... so all adders are off, or indeed perhaps negative on some models that are super tuned for economy as of course more cylinder temps = more power and indeed fuel economy.
Ha Ha. Indeed.
Ive seen some mappers who don't know the answer, or insist they are the same when asked face to face go extremely RED, never mind pink. LOL
Ha Ha, indeed it is, but its also a damn sight safer than cranking it up way past max tractive effort and into inaudible detonation, assuming you don't hit BLD first, which at high revs you rarely do of course. The skill comes in knowing how far to back away from MBT on that particular engine, as they all differ so damn much.
Yes of course, but if you understand the way transients work, then you can usually adjust AFR either side of the nearest 2, 4, 6 or 8 linearisation cells to compensate as best you can for the inability to adjust it if in fact you cant on the system you are lumbered with.
The injector dead time is a huge factor in this of course and the best mapper in the world wont get the transients right if the owner insisted of fitting a plenum the size of a beer barrel to his inlet tract... lol
Of course transient problems are often introduced when trying to use peak and hold injectors when the calibration and ecu specify saturated coil injectors... a good mapper will know this instantly and call off the mapping, a DIY mapper will FAF around forever and at best never ever get it right, at worst he will burn out his ecu drivers. But at least the injectors off ebay were cheaper than a pro mapper wanted for the right ones. LOL
Again, my point is, your paying for knowledge, and not always straight forward mapping. Knowledge which has come at the cost of great time, and expense to the professional.
[*]How many self mappers totally understand why you cant hold an injector flat out with a nice safe 85% duty cycle to get the required AFR with an inlet temperature of 50 deg C on a forced induction car?
You can, it very much depends on how fussy you are about everything being just so. If it were impossible single point injection wouldn't work at all. On an N/A car though I wouldn't be so sure of success.
Both of the above are very dependant on injection timing and atomisation. If you look at the stock timing on many stock Subaru ECUs you will see the intake is closed for injection.
You can, it very much depends on how fussy you are about everything being just so. If it were impossible single point injection wouldn't work at all. On an N/A car though I wouldn't be so sure of success.
Both of the above are very dependant on injection timing and atomisation. If you look at the stock timing on many stock Subaru ECUs you will see the intake is closed for injection.
[*]How many self mappers out there understand why you cant do the same as the above with an engine coolant temperature of 110 degrees C? Is that a coolant temp of 110ºC or an inlet port temp of 110ºC?
[*]How many even know the real mothercare basics, like the difference between detonation and pre-ignition?
One is pink, the other is not.
One is pink, the other is not.
Ive seen some mappers who don't know the answer, or insist they are the same when asked face to face go extremely RED, never mind pink. LOL
[*]Do they understand the most critical aspect of calibrating spark advance? (which is MBT)Just crank the timing up tell you get no more power, it's the EFI university way of melting engines!
[*]I wont waste any time by asking how many totally understand transient fuel correction, and it would be an even larger waste of time to ask about transient spark correction. It's well and good understanding it, but you can only do what the ECU or tools allows you to do.
The injector dead time is a huge factor in this of course and the best mapper in the world wont get the transients right if the owner insisted of fitting a plenum the size of a beer barrel to his inlet tract... lol
Of course transient problems are often introduced when trying to use peak and hold injectors when the calibration and ecu specify saturated coil injectors... a good mapper will know this instantly and call off the mapping, a DIY mapper will FAF around forever and at best never ever get it right, at worst he will burn out his ecu drivers. But at least the injectors off ebay were cheaper than a pro mapper wanted for the right ones. LOL
Again, my point is, your paying for knowledge, and not always straight forward mapping. Knowledge which has come at the cost of great time, and expense to the professional.
Last edited by Evolution Stu; 31 July 2012 at 04:11 PM.
31 July 2012, 04:07 PM
#376
Originally Posted by Pavlo
When it comes to people paying money for their mapping, at any price, 10bhp is a big margin to be down on a 330hp car, if someone has a figure in mind it would be the difference between them going away really happy or going away wondering if they've picked the right mapper (regardless of why it may be 10hp down or even if it was realistic in the first place), I kit you not it's that big of a deal.
Last edited by joz8968; 31 July 2012 at 04:15 PM.
31 July 2012, 04:09 PM
#378
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Unfortunately it doesn't take much more than reading a few data logs and switching a laptop on , that's my point , it does or should not command the amount of money people are being charged
What do you people think mapping is all about , it's not magic or some secret book
It's looking and altering values , running the car measuring the result with hardware and software , then adjusting accordingly to get the desired result
The difference between having more experience is you can input the required values and get closer to your desired result quicker and easier , where as if your not as experienced or not as confidant you will have to take smaller steps and pay more attention to what you're doing because it's not as natural
And providing you pay attention to your hardware and software that's monitoring you won't go wrong
It's that simple
What do you people think mapping is all about , it's not magic or some secret book
It's looking and altering values , running the car measuring the result with hardware and software , then adjusting accordingly to get the desired result
The difference between having more experience is you can input the required values and get closer to your desired result quicker and easier , where as if your not as experienced or not as confidant you will have to take smaller steps and pay more attention to what you're doing because it's not as natural
And providing you pay attention to your hardware and software that's monitoring you won't go wrong
It's that simple
I'm pretty sure I'm technical enough to try it, but I'd rather pay for someone with the experience to do it as they will know what that small change could cost in the long run.
31 July 2012, 04:18 PM
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31 July 2012, 04:22 PM
#382
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Totally understood - but think along the lines of what happens to your 85% duration with a hot engine and hot intake air temps, when the owner takes it out and nails it up the motorway in January with 2deg C air temps and coolant temps still at 40 deg c, thus all the fuel temperature compensation tables are active and "trying" to add the required fuel for the task in hand... how is it going to add the extra fuel to a wide open injector?
) you should just get away with it based on a relative air density of (273+50)/(273+2) = 1.17 which would give you exactly a wide open injector assuming linearity. The coolant temperature effect which would increase the charge density a little further than implied by the air temperature measurements should be tolerated because the knock threshold should be more favourable at 2C than 50C charge temp (although the ECU will probably have a compensation table to correct that). Unlikely to melt an engine, but not the best.If the mapper set it up at 50C with a higher IDC then I could understand the concern.
31 July 2012, 04:24 PM
#383
I realise what you're saying about fuel temperature and injector lag time. But some injectors are much better than others in both speed of response and consistency with temperature (aside from changes in fuel density and viscosity). It's not impossible to run to about 93-94% on some injectors, but of course if you're genuinely maxed at 50ºC you're going to be stuffed at 10ºC.
Although wrt getting all the fuel squeezed into the engine inside of the inlet cam duration, then we have slightly different view, but suffice to say at 16000rpm that's a lot of injector opening and closing to find time for. But the engine isn't just breathing air while you squirt jets of fuel into it's gaping mouth!
Although wrt getting all the fuel squeezed into the engine inside of the inlet cam duration, then we have slightly different view, but suffice to say at 16000rpm that's a lot of injector opening and closing to find time for. But the engine isn't just breathing air while you squirt jets of fuel into it's gaping mouth!
31 July 2012, 04:25 PM
#384
Wide open injectors = badness (on certain injectors)
Ignoring the coolant temperature effect because it would strengthen your argument ( ) you should just get away with it based on a relative air density of (273+50)/(273+2) = 1.17 which would give you exactly a wide open injector assuming linearity. The coolant temperature effect which would increase the charge density a little further than implied by the air temperature measurements should be tolerated because the knock threshold should be more favourable at 2C than 50C charge temp (although the ECU will probably have a compensation table to correct that). Unlikely to melt an engine, but not the best.
If the mapper set it up at 50C with a higher IDC then I could understand the concern.
) you should just get away with it based on a relative air density of (273+50)/(273+2) = 1.17 which would give you exactly a wide open injector assuming linearity. The coolant temperature effect which would increase the charge density a little further than implied by the air temperature measurements should be tolerated because the knock threshold should be more favourable at 2C than 50C charge temp (although the ECU will probably have a compensation table to correct that). Unlikely to melt an engine, but not the best.If the mapper set it up at 50C with a higher IDC then I could understand the concern.
31 July 2012, 04:34 PM
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Which ones? The received wisdom was that low impedance injectors could overheat and stick half open IIRC?
Didn't come across it on OEM/Denso/Subaru injectors, or on low impedance Evo 7-9 injectors, or on the R35. Nearly everyone running basic bolt ons maxxes their Evo or R35 injectors, never heard of or seen a related failure.
I do see little steps in lambda around 93% IDC typically when I've looked for it where you lose a bit of AFR control as they don't have time to close, but never felt it.
Didn't come across it on OEM/Denso/Subaru injectors, or on low impedance Evo 7-9 injectors, or on the R35. Nearly everyone running basic bolt ons maxxes their Evo or R35 injectors, never heard of or seen a related failure.
I do see little steps in lambda around 93% IDC typically when I've looked for it where you lose a bit of AFR control as they don't have time to close, but never felt it.
31 July 2012, 04:41 PM
#386
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lets ignore that, as it means we are wrong.
you should just get away with it based on a relative air density of (273+50)/(273+2) = 1.17 which would give you exactly a wide open injector
The coolant temperature effect which would increase the charge density a little further than implied by the air temperature measurements should be tolerated because the knock threshold should be more favourable at 2C than 50C charge temp (although the ECU will probably have a compensation table to correct that). Unlikely to melt an engine, but not the best.
) LOL
31 July 2012, 04:45 PM
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Of course transient problems are often introduced when trying to use peak and hold injectors when the calibration and ecu specify saturated coil injectors... a good mapper will know this instantly and call off the mapping, a DIY mapper will FAF around forever and at best never ever get it right, at worst he will burn out his ecu drivers. But at least the injectors off ebay were cheaper than a pro mapper wanted for the right ones. LOL
I agree with you to some extent that some people do it out of cheapness, but others do it simply because they're interested in the subject and want to learn about it.
31 July 2012, 04:48 PM
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As question to Paul though, many ECUs and injectors are quite happy brushing 100% IDC and there are many professionally mapped basic power upgrade cars that do it reliably for years and on many marques no reports of issues related. Which ones have you had trouble with? The FQ360 hits 100% IDC with a 3 year warranty on low impedance injectors.
No one should give it death at 40C coolant anyway (some may even run lower wastegate duty that low), but if they did I still don't think most cars would run into problems from running too lean even if the requested IDC is 110%.
No one should give it death at 40C coolant anyway (some may even run lower wastegate duty that low), but if they did I still don't think most cars would run into problems from running too lean even if the requested IDC is 110%.
31 July 2012, 04:48 PM
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Its also interesting to note that the ECU cant always supply sufficient current for such long opening times with large injectors (P&H specifically) and you we have to tweak the linearity voltage tables a little to compensate for the decreased switching times available at high loads when the injector coils are getting very hot and struggling against ever increasing inlet and outlet pressures. Many cars come my way suffering from engines that run worse with the lights and stereo on... almost always due to bad mapping of aftermarket injector curves and / or voltage compensation tables.
