Shaid

This just highlights exclusive stupidity

No offence like

Luan Pra bang

Anyone who thinks that we invaded Afghanistan for a moral or altruistic reason is delusional, its a bit like suggesting that Americas support of dictators in south America was for altruistic reasons. American efforts at corporate sponsored imperialism are nothing new and its always the same story, where you had the United Fruit Company in south America you now have the like of Enron and Halliburton in the mid east. You don't exactly have to go far back in history to see the story repeated do you ?
The spurious claims that 'its for their own good' repeated by evil imperialist Americans on behalf of their corporate paymasters in south America, have been shown by history to look ridiculous and in time todays lies about reasons for invading Afghanistan and Iraq will appear the same.

DCI Gene Hunt

Are we forgetting the twin towers?

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

It was in the main, then the w4nkers moved in most of whom have never owned an Impreza!

Luan Pra bang

Someone knocks down 2 buildings and kills 3000 innocent people, we retaliate by invading countries one of which had NOTHING TO DO with the twin towers destroying every aspect of their civilisation schools, industry roads sewage etc and kill hundreds of thousands of innocent people. Makes perfect sense because doing that will make terrorists either 1. more or 2 less likely to want to blow up things in the western world ? If the hijackers were from Saudi why don;t we invade there and destroy their corrupt regime ?

DCI Gene Hunt

Err.. because AQ were based in Afghanistan, they were being supported by the Taliban and were training more and more people to commit terrorist attacks.

bustaMOVEs

iTrader: (31)

You need to ask why this happened, there is a more scincere reason behind this, why would anyone go to such an extreme. There was obviously a bigger reason behind this.
The world is corrupt and we all know that and so are the people running the world. If you choose to belive everything you see on the media then your are really

So it's really pointless arguing with some people as they will never back down on sn, it's just the fashion nowadays
I think you guys and girls should sort it out in the local pub

P.s are you tubbytommys twin brother?

David Lock

He may have been referring to Iraq?

dl

JTaylor

It never ceases to amaze me, Isaac.

https://www.scoobynet.com/showpost.p...2&postcount=16

In my experience, the only way opponents are able to refute this is with an unfalsifiable conspiracy theory of the type on show here. They're peddled by every Muslim I know, including cyber-pals and people with whom I dine. No beards or pyjamas, funny and literate, spirituallly non-literalist, relatively liberal; the type of Muslim most would describe as 'moderate', but nonetheless they absolutely insist upon subscribing to a conspiracy theory around the 9/11 chain of events. In my view it's the only way the Ummah can perpetuate the myth that the Afghanistan war (and others) is an attack by the West on all Muslims. It must be shown as an attack to justify a 'defence'.

The conspiracy horeshít is used as a recruitment tool or as a solidfier of the Dar al-Harb notion and made more sinister in that it's attractive to bright, inquisitive, but credulous minds that are surrounded by the like-minded and the initiated. When the latter warn that 'Westerners' and 'Infidels' and 'Kuffar' will counter (with reasoned, logical and fact-based arguments), the former finds that this happens and becomes more convinced of his elders' credentials. Clever really.

JTaylor

He may have been, but we're not discussing Iraq, we're discussing Afghanistan.

DCI Gene Hunt

There is nothing sincere in Islamic AQ terrorists murdering 3000+ people.

I'm amazed that some of our (dare I say it) members appear to dismiss this event and even promote fantastical theories to make out like it was all a conspiracy theory designed to exploit commercial gain.

No, I have a brain

jonc

And what was the reason behind the previous attempt to bring down the WTC?

Shaid

Guys we have two groups of people. Those who believe the official line sold to us by the very same people who are shafting us in every way possible and those that dare ask questions.

What shocks me is that those who go with the official line do not ever seem to question what they are being fed which is a shame as most seem pretty intelligent. Maybe it's nationalism which makes them blind, who knows.

Much like James has stated most Muslims and I will add liberal types too go with the 'they're lying' version of events I have noticed a trend where bigoted types go with the official version no questions asked.

PS - not calling anyone a bigot just an observation.

Another observation - since all the worlds problems have an American in the middle don't you think it's about time we had regime change over there lol

Shaid

Because they don't like the western way of life an all that bull the mail comes out with. Nothing whatsoever to do with American arrogance abroad, nope nothing to do with that at all.

JTaylor

Don't confuse liberal and the left, they're separate. Although some would have me painted as a fascista because I espouse intervention and the idea of nation building, I'm about as liberal as they come, Shaid. There are more and more liberals who've moved from the default anti-war position and across to a broad support for aggressive liberalism because they've concluded, often painfully, that it's the only logical step when confronted with Islamism. Where you will find broad support is amongst the old-left; I wrote a post on it a while back which I'll try and dig out.

Here you go:

https://www.scoobynet.com/non-scooby...-hitchens.html

First page, really, it then descends (as you'd expect) in to a petty squabble about the nature of God.

GlesgaKiss

You've nailed it there. The ego can be a terrible thing.

Your post has just reminded me of Glenn Beck, though. Thanks a lot.


There must have been enormous political pressure in the aftermath of 9/11 to 'do something' - well we know for a fact that there was. Essentially, the US has spent trillions of dollars doing something, even if it was just preventing one more, perhaps much smaller-scale, terrorist attack. That is the value that the US government considered its people to have placed on it (I don't mean just in the financial sense).

Whether it was justifiable or necessary is a very subjective thing and is also impossible to properly evaluate since we cannot know what would have happened had there been no action taken.

What I always find ironic about these discussions, though, is that those against 'imperialism' of any kind are also for universal human rights; or rights of some kind, at least. That must mean intervention and/or defence of others' rights is a morally acceptable course of action - and it's what 'should be done', in the same way that it is claimed the imperialists should leave the people alone, i.e. the native people have rights to be respected (the right to choose how they live) - yet without intervention and possible occupation by western forces, these 'others' will be left alone to suffer terrible injustices which infringe their rights in our eyes.

In other words, if some universal human rights - even the European idea of human rights - are held as the moral standard, then 'imperialism' should be desirable.

But no, the native people have the right to 'choose' to live under tyranny and oppression because they are different and that is their culture.

There is a huge conflict in that position.

jonc

So what is the difference between the terrorists in 1993 bombing and those that carried out 9/11?

JTaylor

When you arrive here, any sincere liberal has to make the next move towards aggressive liberalism and then just take the flack from people (often equally sincere) who aren't so far on in their journey.

I edited my post above to include a thread that briefly discusses this. You may enjoy Hitch 22.

DCI Gene Hunt

Very well written and interesting viewpoint...

JTaylor

Yes, it is. It brings in to sharp focus the erroneous and cowardly logic of moral and cultural relativism. The last sentence says it all.

marcevs72

iTrader: (5)

just out of interest shaid what is your opinion of the soldiers that are in afghan and what they are doing ?
i have seen big changes in just the last 4 years with schools,education,new markets and being safe to trade and support families without the taliban.

Luan Pra bang

You do not think Iraq has any relevance ? There has always been a good case for invading Afghanistan, anyone who has read about what the Taliban have done there and the differences between the country before and after their influence could not say any different even if someone decided to ignore international terrorism. My issue is that seeing as the true motives are something very different the end result may well end up being the same as Iraq unless political pressure forces the powers that be into something more noble than a money making opportunity for a select few and a very expensive election campaign for the republican party.

GlesgaKiss

I feel OK about that. Aggressive liberalism, that is. If I see something happening that I don't like, it's only natural to want to stop it.

Where things get clouded for me is in the manner in which that is done: e.g. to what extent, if any, is it reasonable to force others to fulfill a moral goal; in our case, by forcing them to pay taxes which are then used for funding. I tend towards it being not reasonable at all, but extremes test principles...

All Tourlk

I find this very strange. Talk about freedom's, democracy, free will and the West is "meant" to be the benchmark for the mentioned. The belief which is very self centred i care to say with only financial, material benefit in mind with no regard for human life. 100,000's killed in Iraq and 10,000's killed in Afghanistan, women and children all the same. Get it right...so who's the terrorists?

Some i've spoken to are actually waking up and smelling the coffee. Tax's are sky high, going up year by year whether that be on personal income or goods, fuel prices on the rise when the price of the barrel is on the decrease, interest rates/inflation on healthy high's yet alot of people couldn't care less hence why the government is giving it to you harder each year...and all you can do is jump up and down to the tune they are playing. Amazing

All Tourlk

Almost well said

JTaylor

Yes, but it'd be good to keep the exchange centred around the OP's thread title to see how it plays out, that's all.

Could you just expand on this a little?

DCI Gene Hunt

Your original question was "are you a Jew?" why have you changed it?

Shaid

Do not even try that emotional 'our lads' stuff with me. It does not matter what my opinion of said soldiers is. The only opinion that matters is the Aghans. If they see them as saviours then great, if they see them as terrorists then so be it really.

However if you really must know i feel sorry for them. They are being 'used' by the gov for another gov and when they get home they are shafted by the same gov. They are brainwashed into thinking they are doing an honourable thing. Tell me something, do you feel sorry for suicide bombers? If not why not? They think they are doing the right thing, they have obviously been brainwashed to think that way why do you not feel for them>

I really wish we were in a position that war meant war aka both sides getting royally screwed before anyone decided on invading anyone. Remember you might sit there in the comfort of your home justifying the rape of another country especially when you know fully well that Monday morning you are going to work and all is normal. If the shoe was on the other foot i'm sure you war supporting types would think twice before calling shots on how other countries should run. How about this. Sort out your own country first? The law is an absolute joke, drugs are rampant, crime is rampant, the good people are being royally screwed by the authorities and so on so forth.

Shaid

Do not even try that emotional 'our lads' stuff with me. It does not matter what my opinion of said soldiers is. The only opinion that matters is the Aghans. If they see them as saviours then great, if they see them as terrorists then so be it really.

However if you really must know i feel sorry for them. They are being 'used' by the gov for another gov and when they get home they are shafted by the same gov. They are brainwashed into thinking they are doing an honourable thing. Tell me something, do you feel sorry for suicide bombers? If not why not? They think they are doing the right thing, they have obviously been brainwashed to think that way why do you not feel for them>

I really wish we were in a position that war meant war aka both sides getting royally screwed before anyone decided on invading anyone. Remember you might sit there in the comfort of your home justifying the rape of another country especially when you know fully well that Monday morning you are going to work and all is normal. If the shoe was on the other foot i'm sure you war supporting types would think twice before calling shots on how other countries should run. How about this. Sort out your own country first? The law is an absolute joke, drugs are rampant, crime is rampant, the good people are being royally screwed by the authorities and so on so forth.

Shaid