ice643

obama bin laden wins second term.

Jamie

And now more news lucky mutt is alive
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-humber-13258770

Mus

iTrader: (2)

turn the uk to caliphate are you having a laugh??
the a lot of conspiracy surronding 911 I'm yet to here bin laden with his own words actualy say "I done 911 I planned it" and I'm yet to come across any Muslim who says he wants to blow up the west.

I think media hype things way too much and over do it gunatanmo is full of innocent people YES there is Muslim terrorists out there but not as much the media make out.

the point I made was we lost a 1000s of soldiers to catch one guy and spent ten years chasing him and the amount of money this has cost it's what put us in a rescission I'm completely against any war, unless some country come to occupy my home.

look at the economy of Sweden Norway Denmark they don't get involved in BS wars and thats why there economy is stable.

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

In defending a way of life the first thing you have to do is live by it.

A civilized human being -in my opinion - takes no joy in the death of another human being, even one as heinous as OBL). The inability to get beyond our more primitive instincts (eye for an eye etc..) is what gets us into a lot of this kind of bother! Look at the anger that was rightly felt when we saw news coverage of extremists rejoicing in the footage of the twin towers falling. Now, how can we claim to have any moral imperative over such individuals if we condone footage of "normal" westerners doing the same thing on learning of the death of OBL?

I wouldn't advocate for a minute not bringing such individuals to justice and I'm not naive enough to think OBL was ever going to come quietly! Let's face it, he wasn't going to surrender and the US troops would have had little choice.

However, I question whether a person purporting to be from a civilized country can hold the view that punishing someone for masterminding the killing of others by killing them = justice done. Fundamentally, this problem is never going to be solved through force and force alone. Fighting fire with fire, just means you end up with a bigger fire; more deaths, more footage of the other side rejoicing, more retaliation and so the cycle going on!

If we want to be seen as the good guys, we have to distance ourselves from the behaviour we condemn: this DOES NOT mean no military action, it does not mean being soft, but it does mean remembering just what it is we're supposed to be defending/who we are and acting accordingly!

As Nietzsche once said: Those who fight monsters should take care that they never become one. For when you stand and look long into the abyss, the abyss also looks into you.

s70rjw

iTrader: (2)

So what you're asking is, is Bin Wheelie dead.....

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

People will be seeing him in Wall-Mart, on Mars etc.... soon enough!

The conspiracy theorists are gonna have a field day!

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

And I don't?

GlesgaKiss

The emboldened text sums up the whole response really. There is a clear line between rejoicing at the criminal killing of thousands of, we can assume, mostly innocent people, and doing what many Americas will be doing today. In the former situation the people killed had nothing to do with any grievance that the extremists/terrorists might have had at a perceived injustice being committed against them.

What would have been a 'primitive eye for an eye' would have been if the U.S. government had randomly bombed and killed thousands of people unrelated to the 9/11 attacks in Afghanistan or Pakistan, and then the public celebrated it. Then you could rightly compare the reactions of Americans today to the reactions of the citizens of those countries following 9/11.

The problem in those countries, then, is just misinformation. Without access (due to economic circumstances and just plain oppression) to the free thoughts and opinions of a large body of people in the way that the west has with relative freedom of press and twenty four hour access to it through sky tv and the internet, dangerous misinformed opinions, and consequently factions, seem to become rife. When they see the twin towers collapse they think they are 'getting back' at people who have done something to them, but, of course, the people have nothing to do with their problems.

Anyway, to be honest, I don't really see a problem with proportionate justice. When there is concrete evidence that someone has done something like that, them being removed permanently from society; having all their rights removed (i.e. being killed) seems entirely reasonable. Then again, I am a bit of a primitive chump.

As for the Nietzsche quote: that could easily refer to the situation in my first two paragraphs... the context isn't clear.

Dan W

The threat from Islamic extremism that tries to destroy our way of live will never ever go away. We might as well get used to it. It will shape the future of this world for a condiserable portion of the future. Decades I reckon.

In Britain it will get worse as their numbers swell and their regions grow. Any voices of concern are stamped on by the Liberals as being xenophobic. Instead I see it merely as anxiety that we have to stand back and watch our culture altered so suddenly and abruptly. And not without some hostility from those who seek to change it.

The only way that Islamic extremists are defeated is if they are completely wiped out. Hook line and sinker.

That will never happen so be prepared for things to get worse. Much much worse.

Purdey

good press for the president especially with the hard time hes getting from Donald Trump

i reckon the bin laden died a few years ago otherwise he's living in the uk spongeing of the British tax payer

tony de wonderful

So what are you advocating then?

What should they have done with OBL?

He murdered thousands, he's been killed. Seems pretty just if you ask me.

skoobidude

Chuck Norris? Nah, Steve Seagal should have done it like this....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fug44mkKHF0

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Don't get me wrong: he's was a murdering scumbag and I'm not suggesting for one minute that anyone be sad that he's gone, nor am I advocating that it wasn't necessary to have killed him. He had to be stopped and that was most likely the only way!

However, the principle in the scenario I identified is the same: regardless of the merits or otherwise of the victim. The civilized world needs to distance itself from the uncivilized if its actions in defending the civilised way of life are to remain legitimate.

As a civilized nation we need to uphold the values and principles that we are supposed to represent: one of which is that life is sacred and one should take no joy in the death of another human being. In the case of the likes of OBL acknowledge it as a necessary evil, yes; not lose any sleep over it, yes; not be sad over it, of course; be glad that it might have positive repercussions, fine - we can only hope.

But take to the streets and gloat? No. That is not civilized behaviour.

I worry sometimes, that in fighting these savages (and that's what they are) there is a danger that we will lose what it is that makes us civilized and become no more than savages for a different cause ourselves! Hence the quotation I used!

Ns04

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

I'm not questioning what they did: I'm sure it was necessary. I'm not about to be so arrogant as to presume to tell people who are risking their lives on the front line for the US and her allies how to go about dealing with terrorists.

My point concerned:

1) How we, as the civilized population that they are defending, have a duty to remain civilized, so we don't start displaying the very attributes they have gone to war to fight etc... e.g. Barbarism
2) That this issue will never be solved with force alone

GlesgaKiss

They are not rejoicing at the death of a character, per se, but the end of what has been a negative effect on them.

Having a 'civilised' sense of justice is one thing, but to deny yourself the pleasure of justice being served is another. I'm sure there are situations in which you would rejoice at either inflicting pain or killing someone in self defence, or as an equal punishment to an injustice committed against you. (this is all in theory btw, I would never wish a situation like that on anyone)

Would you, for example, not enjoy battering someone with a baseball bat who'd held you captive and tortured you for years? In that case the punishment would be very mild in comparison to the original crime against you (assuming it was at the time of your escape). That wouldn't make you a savage, it's a perfectly natural emotion. It would only be if your emotions led you to do something unjust (i.e. out of proportion and/or to someone unrelated) that you could be considered a savage. So taking the life of a man who planned and killed thousands does not seem unjust, and neither does celebrating it to some degree.

However, it's possible that even after all this has been clearly defined we still have different views, that's fair enough.

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Agree completely. There is a difference, but that difference needs to be articulated in what one says or how one behaves.....

I can't believe I'm going to do this, but TB got it about right

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/4/20110502/...m-49bfa63.html

I feel dirty lol!

There is a world of difference between the above solemn recognition of a necessary evil for a greater good and the mob mentality "Ding dong the f*cker is gone" type approach. The latter just doesn't paint the civilized world in a good light. In fact, I'd argue it makes us look like hippocrates!

To respond to your scenario: Of course I would want revenge BUT A principle difference between a civilized society and an uncivilized society is the way it deals with its outcasts and a central feature of that is not allowing instinct and rudimentary emotion to lead the way. Just letting 'eye for an eye' have free reign is a feature of an uncivilized culture.

Whenever one hears of a case of someone being murdered on the news, there is part of us that says: lock em in the room with the parents, job's a good un. But would we actually want a society where that was done? I'd argue not, and certainly not as soon as the red mist has faded. Instincts like revenge are are heated, irrational and immediate, real justice is cold, deliberate and enduring. The two are hard to reconcile in the heat of the moment, but easier with the passage of time. Ultimately real justice (not an eye for an eye) must prevail if a society is to remain civilised.

We can agree to disagree without the need to resort to confrontation, that's the beauty of living in a "free country"......

but....
.
.
.

I KILL YOU!!!!!!

tony de wonderful

OBL wasn't thrown to the mob or paraded in a cage but dispassionately killed and his body quietly disposed of.

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Tony- are you actually reading my posts????

I didn't say he was paraded around. In fact it would seem that the military have shown great restraint and professionalism (nowt unusual there)

What I'm saying is that civilians need to do the same (i.e. exhibit civilized behavior) in doing their bit in defense of the civilized world!!!!!

It's one thing to acknowledge that a bad thing has happened in the name of a good cause, it's another to undermine that good cause by acting like a savage in the way that one reacts to the news!

Lee247

I must be a savage, uncivilised barbarian then. I was delighted at the news.
The fact that monster, orchestrated the death of hundreds in 9/11, and to finally know he is off the planet and hopefully rotting in hell, makes me feel like cheering
I know where you are coming from, but it's very hard to be sensible/diplomatic about someone finally getting their come uppance, especially someone as vile as he was.

GlesgaKiss

There's really no need, we seem to agree. (and if you do you'll have the navy seals jumping through your front window at some point)

We seem to both be saying that, as long as emotions are restrained by sound principles, there's nothing wrong with them. In other words, if they're kept within the confines of what is 'just'.

As for my eye for an eye... that also stays within those confines. I'd be all for a debt to the exact value of vandalised/destroyed property, for example, or the taking of something owned by the criminal which could be sold to cover the cost of replacement. It doesn't extend to something like "well, he raped my sister, so I'll have a bash at his, too". That's what you seem to be against and it's a totally different thing.

NAF

lol

Richie certainly got his *** handed to him there

stuart69

iTrader: (1)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E3oIbO0AWE

Could be a re-post

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

Anyone else think the world's internet forums could use a new equivalent of "Godwin's Law", for every time someone brings up a ****ing 9/11 conspiracy theory in a thread? Admittedly, in this case at least it's vaguely relevant, but honestly

EH52WRX

iTrader: (16)

I wonder who got the millions for the his reward $$$$$$$$$$$

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nA97P5D-y7M

Penn and Teller's bulls*it!! Always great viewing!

Terminator X

iTrader: (7)

It will never end though ... we've always had a very small minority of people who are terrorists & we always will - a world population of c7bn leads to a minority that is still a large number. Get rid one of one lot & others will replace them.

TX.

StickyMicky

Thing is, many more may indeed take his place, but they are not going to be under the illusion that they can get away with it for ever.

I dont understand why the campfag was hiding anyway, surely waiting 10 years for his virgins is a bit extreme.

Alan Jeffery

Well I feel sorry for the guy.
You settle down to watch "Pakistan's got talent" with a pizza, and look who delivered it!

juggers

iTrader: (1)

There’s quite a few of us on this forum who are smart enough to realise that the "war on terror" is a well orchestrated strategy by the Americans and our UK government to gain strong holds in regions that would of previously been very difficult to do so.

This has also been done under the cloak of Islam as the land they require with all the oil is occupied by Muslims.

juggers

iTrader: (1)

Bollocks you’re just sucked in by the media.

There’s extremist in Christianity Catholicism and Judaism but you don't hear about them because the media is a tool of the Goverment in order to aid them in their illegal wars.

Seriously mate sit back do a little reading go on youtube and open your mind