fast bloke

Oh, hang on - I've got it now -

Best Scooby time - 8.03

Best bike time - 7.17

Best bike time recorded nearly 20 years ago on a longer layout....7.49

Does that mean that a 20 year old bike is quicker than OP?

simplesteve

BSB laptimes are quite a bit quicker than BTTC laptimes.....

Iain250

iTrader: (1)

once on my way home from work on a ducati 916 possibly the best handling motorcycle of all time - i was undertaken on a roundabout by a 4 wheel drive skoda driven on the hatchings marks - i was to stunned to do anything still cant believe it years later.

iain

TopBanana

I ride in to central London a few times a week from Berkshire, and the only thing that surprises me is when I observe competent driving.

fast bloke

hmmmmmm - Markjmd and OP seem to have gone a bit quiet? Maybe unwilling to justify sweeping generalisations in the face of real facts?


Cmon Mark - everyone knows the OP is a halfwit. You don't want to go down in his boat.....

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

On a like-for-like circuit? I think not, and I at least took the trouble to flaming well find some published times to prove it.

Example 1, Oulton Park, a famously twisty and therefore relatively slower circuit:

British Superbike: 1:36:31 (Gregorio Lavilla, 2005)
British Touring Cars: 1:27.59 (Mat Jackson, 2009)

Sources:
Lavilla: 'Unbelieveable' to be on pole | BSB News | Sep 2005 | Crash.Net
MAT JACKSON | BTCC Driver | RML Chevrolet Lacetti | Front-Row at Oulton Park


Example 2, not BTCC and BSB but still car vs bike, the new Silverstone circuit, said to be one of the fastest in the world, and conveniently for the purposes of this discussion happens to be run on exactly the same course for both MotoGP and F1:

2010 MotoGP winner, Jorge Lorenzo, average race speed: 170.4 km/h
fastest qualifying lap: 2’05.991

2010 F1 winner, Mark Webber, average race speed: 217.44 km/h
fastest race lap: 1:30.874

Sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silverstone_Circuit
http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2010/833/6759/
http://www.formula1.com/results/seas...test_laps.html
http://www.motogp.com/en/news/2010/l...ce+silverstone
http://www.motogp.com/en/Results+Statistics/2010/GBR



So, anyone still want to dispute that a bike doesn't stand a chance against a car on a closed circuit?

fast bloke

I think anyone who has knowledge of both will agree. A bike you can afford will kick the living **** out of a car you can afford basically everywhere. (Unless you have the odd 20 million to chuck at it)

fast bloke

So what is your translation of the 'ring stats?

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

Leaving aside for a moment the fact that this wasn't the point being made when I first entered into the debate, I'll go along with that if you add "off the shelf" or "mass-production" between 'a' and 'car'. Otherwise you still have the potential scenario of a well-modded, stripped-out scoob or evo taking on a new sports bike on a long, pot-hole ridden B-road circuit (closed to other traffic, of course), and the car still winning hands-down every time.

As for the ring stats, the other poster seems to have conveniently forgotten that the fastest ever 4-wheeled lap is still nearly 22% quicker than the fastest ever 2-wheeled.

simplesteve

Clearly one didn't take quite enough time......

Your example 1, Oulton Park: BTCC doesn't use the full circuit upto and through the Shell Oils hairpin as the bikes do, hence the faster lap time. At a guess I'd say it's at least a third of a mile shorter.

As for the rest of the circuits...

Brands Indy: BTCC - 48.64 BSB - 45.40
Thruxton: BTCC - 1.16'36 BSB - 1.14'89
Croft: BTCC - 1.24'62 BSB - 1.20'32
Snetterton: BTCC - 1.11'14 BSB - 1.04'68
Knockhill: BTCC - 53.00 BSB - 48.47
Brands GP: BTCC - 1.31'60 BSB - 1.25'72

Mmmm, that's every circuit BSB quicker. The Formula 1 vs Moto GP isn't any type of comparison really as a bike will never match the cars speed round a track due to it's lack of downforce and outright grip.

My sources... btcc.net & britishsuperbike.com

gallois

I love the way you are setting specifics to ensure your argument wins. You are disregarding F1 vs moto GP as you quite rightly state that an F1 car offers more, substantially more, grip, but it is still a car though. You are limiting your argument to 300bhp BTCC cars vs the fastest bikes on 2 wheels. So in the interest of fairness, how about we limit this to road legal cars vs road legal bikes, cost is not a factor....... even so though, this is completely not the point, nor is it a sleight against bikes or bikers, it is just physics.

But this is straying from the original strayed point, which was a decent car on a decent road vs a decent bike would need a very good rider compared to an average driver, Even most of us on here have taken our cars to the limits of it's grip, but not many riders (well, not intentionally) have the ***** to corner on an A-road bend with a knee properly down and the rear just about to slide. (i am an ex biker BTW and ironically, gave up as my wife would have been a widow had i carried on, there's just too many ******* on 4 wheels apparently trying to kill me coupled with my need to keep my licence, too many close calls, although i still mess around on mxer's, so am not a hater)

Sheepsplitter

simplesteve is right, the BTCC track is a shorter circuit. The circuit comprises all of the Cascades Corner and Lakeside but then forks off into a hairpin before Island Bend. This hairpin cuts out all of the Island section of the circuit and takes the cars straight back over Hill Top.
The full 'Island Circuit' (full) is 2.26 miles, the 'Fosters Circuit' (short) is only 1.66 miles.
So it's not a fair comparison to compare BSB and BTCC times on this track.

The reality is that a bog standard out of the showroom top superbike (i.e BMW S1000RR) ridden by a top rider(i.e Kiyonari) and on the same tyres as a works bike would be within 3-4 seconds of a lap different to the works bike.
For a similar BTCC car compared to a showroom car it would be more like 15-20 seconds a lap.

It's always an interesting debate, but really comparing 2 wheels with 4 is like saying steak is better than fish, it's never going to be anything except a subjective argument.
What is undeniable is that it's a massively braver thing to take a superbike(or any bike for that matter) around a track at race pace, compared to a tin box with all the added protection.

simplesteve

I didn't mean to quote specifics, it was just stated earlier that BTCC had faster lap times than BSB which is not correct.... I hopefully cleared that up

Sheepsplitter

Oulton Park BSB Lap Record is 23/7/06 Ryuichi Kiyonari, Honda
1m:35.436s, 101.54mph, compared to his fastest race lap in 2010 of 1m:35.762s.

2010 National Superstock lap record on 'near showroom BMWS1000RR' was 1m:38.307s.
Superstock is run on 'treaded' road legal tyres (compared to BSB slicks).
More info on the tyres used in 2010 season here:-
http://londonbikers.com/news/12677/m...rstock-classes

So hopefully you can see the difference between a highly fettled bike and a stocker is not as big a gap as can be achieved by tuning and tweaking cars.

Luan Pra bang

What is faster with a perfect rider is a pointless debate, I can drive a 106 gti faster round bends than any sports bike I have had, I have also never sat in a car that has the same straigtline speed as any litre sports bike. Being a fast biker takes a bucket of skill, practice, talent and bollocks. Whenever I beat a car in a race on a twisty road it has always been the straight line speed that won the race even average cars will be faster on a bend unless you can see enough to cut corners. Anyone good enough on a bike to corner faster than a decent car has my respect.

andythejock01wrx

Sounds sensible and based on personal experience of both bikes and cars.

fivetide

iTrader: (1)

so you knew he'd ride unsafely because er.... he'd been riding safely. Got it.

As for the Moto GP v1 F1 Ducati budget $46m v. Ferrari £414m in 2008 and get $97m a year from Marlboro (who also sponsor Ducati)

Hardly like for like.

The fact is there is so much more you can do with a car go generate downforce and grip so a F1 style budget should always be faster. However, bbikes are nearly at their limit out of the box, look at the Top Gear thing. Ok the bike lost but £15,000 v £150,000 shows just how silly you need to get with the cars to do anything. I would also have put money on the bike beating the Lambo in the drag race too.

5t.

Jamie

I am going to shoot at least 40 people next month how cool is that for a public forum ??




























































































































































































They will be covered in paint

fast bloke

Probably cool enough for the other kids you go to school with, but they, like us and MI5 know that you are FOS............

Leslie

I think it is more likely that you misunderstood what he meant by his signal. He doubtless recognised your starring abilities round corners and just wanted to have a fast drive in company with you, not necessarily wanting to have any kind of a race which is very foolish on a public road.

I have done that both on a bike and in my Scooby and enjoyed it considerably and with a thumbs and a smile up to each other as the ways parted later.

Les

RB5SCOTT

Ive driven lots of fast cars and am pretty fast on my BMW S1000RR but cant be bothered to comment

Leslie

Don't then!

Les