Stephen Hawking
04 September 2010, 06:12 PM
#211
Scooby Senior
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: West Midlands
Posts: 5,763
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Religion was invented as an early form of "Control" to keep the masses well behaved else they will go to Hell..............
The Bible is a story book and nothing else.
In the "Name" of religion causes most of the world's conflicts conducted by extremists.
There are so many different religions and beliefs around the world that will make conflict inevitable.
In my opinion (and it is just my opinion) Religion is for weak minded people who "Need" something to believe in.
The Human brain naturally thinks that there must be something after death because of it's inquisitive nature. But in reality, when you're dead, you're dead!
If there really was a "God", He must be a real sadist to let all the pain and suffering of so many innocent people continue.
The more the human race learns about the Universe and how it came to be and works the less water the "God Created the earth and everything in it" holds. Anyone who still believes this is severely blinkered.
I have absolutely nothing against religion as long as I am not subjected to any of it's nonsensical ramblings by brainwashed idiots. The teachings of ALL religions are used to indoctrinate children at an early age before they have the ability to question it's accuracy which I think is very wrong.
Anyway, just my 2p's worth and my right to express myself.
The Bible is a story book and nothing else.In the "Name" of religion causes most of the world's conflicts conducted by extremists.
There are so many different religions and beliefs around the world that will make conflict inevitable.
In my opinion (and it is just my opinion) Religion is for weak minded people who "Need" something to believe in.
The Human brain naturally thinks that there must be something after death because of it's inquisitive nature. But in reality, when you're dead, you're dead!
If there really was a "God", He must be a real sadist to let all the pain and suffering of so many innocent people continue.
The more the human race learns about the Universe and how it came to be and works the less water the "God Created the earth and everything in it" holds. Anyone who still believes this is severely blinkered.
I have absolutely nothing against religion as long as I am not subjected to any of it's nonsensical ramblings by brainwashed idiots. The teachings of ALL religions are used to indoctrinate children at an early age before they have the ability to question it's accuracy which I think is very wrong.
Anyway, just my 2p's worth and my right to express myself.
mb
04 September 2010, 06:18 PM
#212
Scooby Senior
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: West Midlands
Posts: 5,763
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
04 September 2010, 09:43 PM
#213
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: The far North
Posts: 700
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Put any member of a religious group in a room, hold an apple mid air and drop it. They will both agree it is gravity. It's obvious nobody can or would argue.
Yet put them in a room to discuss any aspect of a given religion and a scientist will still come up with many different explanations as to why it's all a pile of horse crap. They will probably become very insistant upon how they have come close to proving that's it's all rubbish.
The thing is they can't prove any if it is faulse, but they like to wind themselves up a treat, while the religious person is quite happy to simply 'have faith'.
Personally I beleive the bible is a book, an interesting one, but still just a book.
Yet like my father (who is equally unconvinced) and many others, we will have a traditional service when we die. Get buried or cremated and more than likely be very hopeful that there is ..... A Heaven.
That makes me, and a shed load more people hypocrites.
I would like to know of someone who would happily just die and be left to it, no burial, no service or prayers, nobody to pay their respects. Simply just stop living as there is nothing else to do, and nowhere else to go.
Yet put them in a room to discuss any aspect of a given religion and a scientist will still come up with many different explanations as to why it's all a pile of horse crap. They will probably become very insistant upon how they have come close to proving that's it's all rubbish.
The thing is they can't prove any if it is faulse, but they like to wind themselves up a treat, while the religious person is quite happy to simply 'have faith'.
Personally I beleive the bible is a book, an interesting one, but still just a book.
Yet like my father (who is equally unconvinced) and many others, we will have a traditional service when we die. Get buried or cremated and more than likely be very hopeful that there is ..... A Heaven.
That makes me, and a shed load more people hypocrites.
I would like to know of someone who would happily just die and be left to it, no burial, no service or prayers, nobody to pay their respects. Simply just stop living as there is nothing else to do, and nowhere else to go.
However i would still like to think there is some form of spiritual world that my close family/friends will pass onto. Why? well if just comes to an end, how bloody boring is that.
04 September 2010, 10:09 PM
#214
Scooby Regular
I think you all need to take a look at what life you have lived so far,we are born and we die,what happens between then and what you believe is for you to decide.Hawkins is not going to prove anything about God,and even if he did,would it still leave doubts in people's minds.Me so far things have happened in my life so far that can't be explained,i have faced death at times,i mean actually faced death as if to say this is it,and then things happen certain things that have got me out the **** that can't be explained..I do believe in God and i don't think it's wrong if someone says i don't believe or i do believe..If you are content inside of yourself with what you believe.then just go by it.I am not waiting for some science or anything to prove it to me,i am happy with what i believe....
04 September 2010, 11:17 PM
#215
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 10,329
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
05 September 2010, 01:09 AM
#217
What is the point to this thread/discussion, whatever you want to call it?
For the most part, this will just go around in circles. Non believers will remain that way, often looking to science for answers (nothing wrong there), believers on one level will accept science withing their beliefs and then there will be hardened believers that will just see 'the word' as truth. Not forgetting those who just don't really care too much and plod on with life.
Whatever category people fit into, it is fairly unlikely anyones' view will change, so as many a thread has gone before, why not just call it a day? I love reading threads (often when I'm not armed with answers) where I can just read other views, but this is just an arguement with no end at the moment.
People have their reasons for swaying one way or another and that is down to them.
Personally I think live and let live. Most average people despite belief go about their lives doing no harm and as far as I'm concerned it would be a better place if everybody accepted that. Most people are decent, and those who are not would most likely not be no matter what guise they act out under. People kill in the name of reliogion, people kill because they have a screw loose, people kill out of vengence or hate or for a lust for power. People willing to cause so much harm to others would do so because they are simply wired up to cause harm.
Regardless of my take on things, what I will say is there is a difference between following a religion and having a form of belief.
Religion is a form of control over people, as is science to some extent. The only difference is changes happen more within science than religion. Religion doesn' really move with the times, but then it doesn't mean science is right either. What may be accepted at some point, may be dismissed later.
Mad or not, I don't think there is anything wrong in believing there may be more to this life (or more life than his planet holds) or that there is some higher power. What I do think firmly, is hold your views whatever they may be but do so in a way that doesn't hurt others.
For the most part, this will just go around in circles. Non believers will remain that way, often looking to science for answers (nothing wrong there), believers on one level will accept science withing their beliefs and then there will be hardened believers that will just see 'the word' as truth. Not forgetting those who just don't really care too much and plod on with life.
Whatever category people fit into, it is fairly unlikely anyones' view will change, so as many a thread has gone before, why not just call it a day? I love reading threads (often when I'm not armed with answers) where I can just read other views, but this is just an arguement with no end at the moment.
People have their reasons for swaying one way or another and that is down to them.
Personally I think live and let live. Most average people despite belief go about their lives doing no harm and as far as I'm concerned it would be a better place if everybody accepted that. Most people are decent, and those who are not would most likely not be no matter what guise they act out under. People kill in the name of reliogion, people kill because they have a screw loose, people kill out of vengence or hate or for a lust for power. People willing to cause so much harm to others would do so because they are simply wired up to cause harm.
Regardless of my take on things, what I will say is there is a difference between following a religion and having a form of belief.
Religion is a form of control over people, as is science to some extent. The only difference is changes happen more within science than religion. Religion doesn' really move with the times, but then it doesn't mean science is right either. What may be accepted at some point, may be dismissed later.
Mad or not, I don't think there is anything wrong in believing there may be more to this life (or more life than his planet holds) or that there is some higher power. What I do think firmly, is hold your views whatever they may be but do so in a way that doesn't hurt others.
05 September 2010, 08:15 AM
#218
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 39,877
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well said Lisa. I think you have covered it all very well.
The major point is that we are all entitled to believe what we feel is right and one person's opinions don't justify the sort of offensive comment we have seen on this thread just because he may think differently.
It is true that it is a waste of time trying to discuss it anyway, as you say, it will all go in circles and very often cause bad blood.
As you say, one can hold a certain belief about it all without even having to be a member of a particular religion anyway.
Surely it is enough if you feel you have to, to proclaim your own beliefs without having to run others down in such an insulting manner. It certainly does not strengthen the argument and is all rather immature anyway.
Les
The major point is that we are all entitled to believe what we feel is right and one person's opinions don't justify the sort of offensive comment we have seen on this thread just because he may think differently.
It is true that it is a waste of time trying to discuss it anyway, as you say, it will all go in circles and very often cause bad blood.
As you say, one can hold a certain belief about it all without even having to be a member of a particular religion anyway.
Surely it is enough if you feel you have to, to proclaim your own beliefs without having to run others down in such an insulting manner. It certainly does not strengthen the argument and is all rather immature anyway.
Les
05 September 2010, 08:20 AM
#219
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: The far North
Posts: 700
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
But how does somebody expressing their view on a subject hurt others? Its a genuine question, it always seems to get said in these kind of threads, but i've never understood who is getting hurt and why? What the hell are they made from?
05 September 2010, 08:21 AM
#220
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 10,329
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
He's saying Children should 'make up their own mind' yet otoh he wants to teach the scientific method as the route to absolute truth.
That is contradictory.
That is contradictory.
Last edited by tony de wonderful; 05 September 2010 at 08:23 AM.
05 September 2010, 09:24 AM
#221
Scooby Senior
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: North Wales
Posts: 5,826
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Blimey, is it that time of year again 
?
Some interesting replies, some very revealing ones.
Some people defending the position of God/religion are quite frankly ignorant of the 'history' or origins of their religion! Kinda shows that faith is just just blind belief, not even bothering to learn about the thing you believe in
I always like to see religious people try to defend their position with exactly the same argument that is used to undermeine their belief. "Well, the Universe must have come from something, it can't have come from nothing, so there must be a creator!" or "it it can't have been around for ever, etc. etc." The irony of that argument dismissing the possibility of a God too for the very same reason seems to be lost on them. Of course, it's a difficult question, ,but in science's defence, at least there is an enormous amout of evidence to back things up since the 'beginning', but not a jot for religion.
People dismiss spontaneous generation of life or matter because it the odds against it are so immense. But, we have experiences of events happening all the time that the odds are against, but still they happen. Ask any Euro Millions winner!
As the great Richard Feynmann once said in a lecture, "I saw a registration plate on the way here, ARW 357, imagine that?". Human nature ascribes meaning to things that have no meaning, patterns where there are no patterns, meaning where there is none. We cannot help it.
The thing I find most perplexong about people who have faith us their utter refusal to accept things which are in direct contradiction to their belief, yet every facet of their everyday life relies on the fact that they need proof. Everything revolves around knowing that what you are going to do will not kill you, bankrupt you, ake you ill, make you happy, make etc. etc. They simply cannot apply this to their own belief. It's very odd.
They fail to see why we laugh when they scoff at other religions but don't see the contradiction that is. The logical and historical innacuracies in all religious texts. If they bought a non-fiction book in Waterstones today that was as full of holes as the Bible, they would probably ask for their money back!
The utter failure of prayer, yet the odd 'success' (but statisically acceptable as chance) set against the billions of unanswered prayers seems not to faze them one jot! Cherry pick that data!
Christianity is doomed to failure, because it has tried to modernise, which makes it look stupid. To say that the bible is allegory when it was quite obviously not intended that way is embarrassing. By trying to modernise, it is effectively saying "look, we reliase this bollox, let's try to make it contemporary". Unfortunately, more and more people see through that, you either believe this stuff or you don't, it's not negotiable, faith is not a smorgasbord. Who decides what is allegorical and what is literal? It's a joke!
The only reason that they now claim it is symbolic is, ironically, because of the discoveries made by science! "Oh, er, well, they don't really mean it was 7 days....." But, the language in the bible is quite unequivocal, they really do mean 7 days. And we know the order in which things are created is wrong. So, considering the Church accepts this evidence, why does it persist in hanging on to the rest of it?
What happens to Islam and Judaism remains to be seen, but how long can they remain mired in dogma as the world moves on?
For the people who say "I have had en experience", please, share them with us. If you truly believe, you have nothing be ashamed or embarrassed about, have you? I'm willing to bet though, that it can be ascribed to chance, misreading a situation, seeing somehting you wanted to see, or in some cases sadly, signs of a mental illness. I mean, Peter Sutcliffe said he had voices telling him to murder prostitutes! If he had said "God told me to help orphans" it would have been quite different. Why do we believe mad people who don't do bad things?
Hey ho, back to my work.........
Geezer
? Some interesting replies, some very revealing ones.
Some people defending the position of God/religion are quite frankly ignorant of the 'history' or origins of their religion! Kinda shows that faith is just just blind belief, not even bothering to learn about the thing you believe in
I always like to see religious people try to defend their position with exactly the same argument that is used to undermeine their belief. "Well, the Universe must have come from something, it can't have come from nothing, so there must be a creator!" or "it it can't have been around for ever, etc. etc." The irony of that argument dismissing the possibility of a God too for the very same reason seems to be lost on them. Of course, it's a difficult question, ,but in science's defence, at least there is an enormous amout of evidence to back things up since the 'beginning', but not a jot for religion.
People dismiss spontaneous generation of life or matter because it the odds against it are so immense. But, we have experiences of events happening all the time that the odds are against, but still they happen. Ask any Euro Millions winner!
As the great Richard Feynmann once said in a lecture, "I saw a registration plate on the way here, ARW 357, imagine that?". Human nature ascribes meaning to things that have no meaning, patterns where there are no patterns, meaning where there is none. We cannot help it.
The thing I find most perplexong about people who have faith us their utter refusal to accept things which are in direct contradiction to their belief, yet every facet of their everyday life relies on the fact that they need proof. Everything revolves around knowing that what you are going to do will not kill you, bankrupt you, ake you ill, make you happy, make etc. etc. They simply cannot apply this to their own belief. It's very odd.
They fail to see why we laugh when they scoff at other religions but don't see the contradiction that is. The logical and historical innacuracies in all religious texts. If they bought a non-fiction book in Waterstones today that was as full of holes as the Bible, they would probably ask for their money back!
The utter failure of prayer, yet the odd 'success' (but statisically acceptable as chance) set against the billions of unanswered prayers seems not to faze them one jot! Cherry pick that data!
Christianity is doomed to failure, because it has tried to modernise, which makes it look stupid. To say that the bible is allegory when it was quite obviously not intended that way is embarrassing. By trying to modernise, it is effectively saying "look, we reliase this bollox, let's try to make it contemporary". Unfortunately, more and more people see through that, you either believe this stuff or you don't, it's not negotiable, faith is not a smorgasbord. Who decides what is allegorical and what is literal? It's a joke!
The only reason that they now claim it is symbolic is, ironically, because of the discoveries made by science! "Oh, er, well, they don't really mean it was 7 days....." But, the language in the bible is quite unequivocal, they really do mean 7 days. And we know the order in which things are created is wrong. So, considering the Church accepts this evidence, why does it persist in hanging on to the rest of it?
What happens to Islam and Judaism remains to be seen, but how long can they remain mired in dogma as the world moves on?
For the people who say "I have had en experience", please, share them with us. If you truly believe, you have nothing be ashamed or embarrassed about, have you? I'm willing to bet though, that it can be ascribed to chance, misreading a situation, seeing somehting you wanted to see, or in some cases sadly, signs of a mental illness. I mean, Peter Sutcliffe said he had voices telling him to murder prostitutes! If he had said "God told me to help orphans" it would have been quite different. Why do we believe mad people who don't do bad things?
Hey ho, back to my work.........
Geezer
05 September 2010, 10:52 AM
#222
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 39,877
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Les
05 September 2010, 12:43 PM
#226
Times have changed and anyone who thinks it is ok to kill in the name of religion are mad, and I'm not convinced they wouldn't act in a similar manner religious or not. Most people aren't like that though, they just go about their business believing what works for them. If people think there is something else, then let it be.
To be honest if people (from both sides so to speak) just concentrated on what they think everyone would be better off. If people stopped trying to force their views on each other the world would be better all round.
05 September 2010, 12:47 PM
#227
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Sherwood Forest
Posts: 1,245
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The only time I have a problem with religion is when someone tries to force their beliefs upon me or my family to which I object strongly to.
05 September 2010, 12:50 PM
#228
Scooby Senior
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Scotchland
Posts: 6,566
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well put it this way. Say I was religious (which I no longer am but that is beside the point), so long as I get on and follow my beliefs without doing harm to anyone else, what is the real problem?
Times have changed and anyone who thinks it is ok to kill in the name of religion are mad, and I'm not convinced they wouldn't act in a similar manner religious or not. Most people aren't like that though, they just go about their business believing what works for them. If people think there is something else, then let it be.
To be honest if people (from both sides so to speak) just concentrated on what they think everyone would be better off. If people stopped trying to force their views on each other the world would be better all round.
Times have changed and anyone who thinks it is ok to kill in the name of religion are mad, and I'm not convinced they wouldn't act in a similar manner religious or not. Most people aren't like that though, they just go about their business believing what works for them. If people think there is something else, then let it be.
To be honest if people (from both sides so to speak) just concentrated on what they think everyone would be better off. If people stopped trying to force their views on each other the world would be better all round.
If we all went round agreeing with each other ScoobyNet would finally be dead.
Mind you - might stop the double posts
.People getting upset because other people think they are un-hinged is hardly the fault of the person who isn't a retarded feckwit
This statement can be used by either "side"
05 September 2010, 01:17 PM
#231
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 10,329
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sounds like a manifesto of fundamentalism. Christianity has changed over time, it has evolved, innovated.
05 September 2010, 02:11 PM
#232
Religion was invented as an early form of "Control" to keep the masses well behaved else they will go to Hell.............. The Bible is a story book and nothing else.
In the "Name" of religion causes most of the world's conflicts conducted by extremists.
There are so many different religions and beliefs around the world that will make conflict inevitable.
In my opinion (and it is just my opinion) Religion is for weak minded people who "Need" something to believe in.
The Human brain naturally thinks that there must be something after death because of it's inquisitive nature. But in reality, when you're dead, you're dead!
If there really was a "God", He must be a real sadist to let all the pain and suffering of so many innocent people continue.
The more the human race learns about the Universe and how it came to be and works the less water the "God Created the earth and everything in it" holds. Anyone who still believes this is severely blinkered.
I have absolutely nothing against religion as long as I am not subjected to any of it's nonsensical ramblings by brainwashed idiots. The teachings of ALL religions are used to indoctrinate children at an early age before they have the ability to question it's accuracy which I think is very wrong.
Anyway, just my 2p's worth and my right to express myself.
The Bible is a story book and nothing else.In the "Name" of religion causes most of the world's conflicts conducted by extremists.
There are so many different religions and beliefs around the world that will make conflict inevitable.
In my opinion (and it is just my opinion) Religion is for weak minded people who "Need" something to believe in.
The Human brain naturally thinks that there must be something after death because of it's inquisitive nature. But in reality, when you're dead, you're dead!
If there really was a "God", He must be a real sadist to let all the pain and suffering of so many innocent people continue.
The more the human race learns about the Universe and how it came to be and works the less water the "God Created the earth and everything in it" holds. Anyone who still believes this is severely blinkered.
I have absolutely nothing against religion as long as I am not subjected to any of it's nonsensical ramblings by brainwashed idiots. The teachings of ALL religions are used to indoctrinate children at an early age before they have the ability to question it's accuracy which I think is very wrong.
Anyway, just my 2p's worth and my right to express myself.
05 September 2010, 02:28 PM
#233
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Epsom
Posts: 5,832
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council...ople_%28360%29
05 September 2010, 02:43 PM
#234
Just a thought if the pope is a representive of god why does he have to go around in a bullit proof car?surly his god will protect him!! or is it that god dont like German kiddy twiddlers,on that note as The Great Dave Allen would say good night and let your gods go with you
05 September 2010, 03:13 PM
#235
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 10,329
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Or to put it another way, made stuff up to fill the logical holes in its own arguments, twisting and turning as it hangs on its own petard of its fantasy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council...ople_%28360%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council...ople_%28360%29
It all springs from Christianity.
05 September 2010, 04:27 PM
#236
Yet without Christianity you would not have modernity, science, humanism...the modern world as we know it.
It all springs from Christianity.
It all springs from Christianity.
. Humanism and modernism both took root in the Renaissance, precisely because scholars at that time began to re-examine the pre-Christian scientific foundations of the Greek and Roman empires on the one hand, and evolved philosophical outlooks that placed man at the centre of his destiny rather than God, on the other. To put it bluntly, Christianity's contribution to either of these things was minor and coincidental at best, and positively antagonistic on many other occasions.
05 September 2010, 04:39 PM
#238
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 10,329
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Stated without a hint of irony, amazing . Humanism and modernism both took root in the Renaissance, precisely because scholars at that time began to re-examine the pre-Christian scientific foundations of the Greek and Roman empires on the one hand, and evolved philosophical outlooks that placed man at the centre of his destiny rather than God, on the other. To put it bluntly, Christianity's contribution to either of these things was minor and coincidental at best, and positively antagonistic on many other occasions.
. Humanism and modernism both took root in the Renaissance, precisely because scholars at that time began to re-examine the pre-Christian scientific foundations of the Greek and Roman empires on the one hand, and evolved philosophical outlooks that placed man at the centre of his destiny rather than God, on the other. To put it bluntly, Christianity's contribution to either of these things was minor and coincidental at best, and positively antagonistic on many other occasions.The renaissance rediscovered learnings but not the morality of antiquity.
05 September 2010, 05:34 PM
#239
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Epsom
Posts: 5,832
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
05 September 2010, 05:44 PM
#240
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: The far North
Posts: 700
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts