Stephen Hawking
#181
Scooby Regular
Is art 'made up' then? It hints at truths which are non-literal - good art anyway. You can interpret high art intellectually and yet miss it's meaning...not comprehend it. It's another form of truth.
Why have morals then? Are they dictated by 'logic'? No they are not. Pure logic and reason can justify Auschwitz as much as humanism.
Why have morals then? Are they dictated by 'logic'? No they are not. Pure logic and reason can justify Auschwitz as much as humanism.
#182
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (11)
That is idiotic. You think most Christians interpret the bible literaly?
Symbolism is real, it's another form of truth
Symbolism is real, it's another form of truth
#183
A few pages on and you still haven't provided proof, you've provided something you think in your head, which again is just a belief. You can try and confuse the situation all you want, but it's plain to see. Why talk about art now? It's totally irrellevant to the subject, and 'another form of truth', as you put it, is actually using the word 'truth' in a totally different sense.
I'm not confusing anything. You are the one saying truth is only what can be understood with the intellect, what can be validated with scientific method.
Got any 'proof' for that?
Sounds like a narrow definition.
Art can depict symbolism, it's signs and hints at truth which goes beyond intellectual truth, just like religion in a way.
#184
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Weston Super Mare, Somerset.
Posts: 14,102
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Now humans can only understand and think in three dimensions and it's always seemed a bit odd, even arrogant, to me that they assume that the universe and everything that goes with it can/must be understood in this very limited intellectual capacity. And to consider that there may be other forces at work outside these dimensions is laughable.
So can any of you "non-believers" say why that should be the case?
It would seem more likely than not that there are other dimensions around which we cannot begin to comprehend. If humans choose to accept this possibility and call it god then this seems quite reasonable and, in reality, a more open-minded and sensible approach.
dl
So can any of you "non-believers" say why that should be the case?
It would seem more likely than not that there are other dimensions around which we cannot begin to comprehend. If humans choose to accept this possibility and call it god then this seems quite reasonable and, in reality, a more open-minded and sensible approach.
dl
#185
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (11)
So can any of you "non-believers" say why that should be the case?
#186
#187
Hang on there Tony, you didn't say 'the Bible is symbolic', or even 'certain parts of the Bible are symbolic', you said 'religion is symbolic', using no qualifier and therefore implying the whole of it is. So, is what I said idiotic because it assumes that's what you meant, when at face value it's what you actually said? Or was it idiotic for not instantly and without any further explanation on your part seeing that it's only this little bit here and that little bit there of any given religion which aren't to be taken literally, but these other little bits further on which are? Taking just one obviously thorny example for the sake of argument, what if old Williams took it upon himself one day to make a statement that instead of the seven days of Creation story being symbolic, as now seems to be commonly accepted among 'modern' Anglicans, it was in fact the whole 'existence of a supreme being and creator' idea which had been symbolic all along? Would you still be saying then that it's just another way in which 'religion is symbolic', or would you like any other sane person be hard-pushed not to concede that, 'hmm well, that's ripping out the whole foundation from under our faith, actually'?
#188
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Epsom
Posts: 5,832
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For Gods sake, DON'T!!!!!!!
This does bring up another point though, the whole patronising attitude of god botherers. The one that says, "I'm in touch with a higher being and you're just a poor little heathen, I should feel sorry for you". Its this sense of superiority (and in Islam has a name for it, unbelievers are kafir, c.f. ***** and untermensch) , that is yet another reason to reject religion
#189
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Sherwood Forest
Posts: 1,245
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Religion was invented as an early form of "Control" to keep the masses well behaved else they will go to Hell.............. The Bible is a story book and nothing else.
In the "Name" of religion causes most of the world's conflicts conducted by extremists.
There are so many different religions and beliefs around the world that will make conflict inevitable.
In my opinion (and it is just my opinion) Religion is for weak minded people who "Need" something to believe in.
The Human brain naturally thinks that there must be something after death because of it's inquisitive nature. But in reality, when you're dead, you're dead!
If there really was a "God", He must be a real sadist to let all the pain and suffering of so many innocent people continue.
The more the human race learns about the Universe and how it came to be and works the less water the "God Created the earth and everything in it" holds. Anyone who still believes this is severely blinkered.
I have absolutely nothing against religion as long as I am not subjected to any of it's nonsensical ramblings by brainwashed idiots. The teachings of ALL religions are used to indoctrinate children at an early age before they have the ability to question it's accuracy which I think is very wrong.
Anyway, just my 2p's worth and my right to express myself.
In the "Name" of religion causes most of the world's conflicts conducted by extremists.
There are so many different religions and beliefs around the world that will make conflict inevitable.
In my opinion (and it is just my opinion) Religion is for weak minded people who "Need" something to believe in.
The Human brain naturally thinks that there must be something after death because of it's inquisitive nature. But in reality, when you're dead, you're dead!
If there really was a "God", He must be a real sadist to let all the pain and suffering of so many innocent people continue.
The more the human race learns about the Universe and how it came to be and works the less water the "God Created the earth and everything in it" holds. Anyone who still believes this is severely blinkered.
I have absolutely nothing against religion as long as I am not subjected to any of it's nonsensical ramblings by brainwashed idiots. The teachings of ALL religions are used to indoctrinate children at an early age before they have the ability to question it's accuracy which I think is very wrong.
Anyway, just my 2p's worth and my right to express myself.
Last edited by Frosticles; 04 September 2010 at 11:40 AM.
#190
I was not trying to present reasons why anyone should believe in a God (either sex by the way ) or an all powerful being if you prefer, or anyone else or nothing. I have said often enough that is a matter for the individual and I certainly would not try to influence anyone one way or the other.
The major point I was making, as ever, is that it is totally unnecessary to insult someone because they have different beliefs to yourself. All the nasty remarks such as accusations of mental deficiency etc are a symptom of uncertaincy in the mind of the person who is being so ill mannered. Why is it necessary to care anyway? I am not bothered what anyone else wants to believe. It would have no bearing on how I regard that person and as far as I am concerned it is strictly their affair.
All this guff about trying to prove or disprove one thing or another is a waste of time and effort. It is purely people trying to show us all how right they are and how wrong others are. Its a fail in any case! What is the point? Making insulting remarks does not strengthen the argument either, usually does the opposite.
Religion has always been a contentious subject, those of opposing views will never come to agreement anyway. All it does is to risk causing bad blood. That is why I will never enter into a discussion about the rights or wrong in believing in it or not.
Much easier to keep an open mind, be prepared to look at all sides, and stay out of the futile arguments. Those who are agnostic or accept the possibility of an all powerful being will not even necessarily be interested in the Bible or the Christian story. The whole thing requires a lot more lateral thinking than just trying to refute bits of text from the Bible etc. All that sort of thing proves nothing!
All I have ever asked is that people keep their comments at least good mannered if they feel they have to mouth off about it. This forum is worth more than such vicious name calling as we have seen so far. No one deserves to be called mentally deficient because of their personal beliefs.
Les
The major point I was making, as ever, is that it is totally unnecessary to insult someone because they have different beliefs to yourself. All the nasty remarks such as accusations of mental deficiency etc are a symptom of uncertaincy in the mind of the person who is being so ill mannered. Why is it necessary to care anyway? I am not bothered what anyone else wants to believe. It would have no bearing on how I regard that person and as far as I am concerned it is strictly their affair.
All this guff about trying to prove or disprove one thing or another is a waste of time and effort. It is purely people trying to show us all how right they are and how wrong others are. Its a fail in any case! What is the point? Making insulting remarks does not strengthen the argument either, usually does the opposite.
Religion has always been a contentious subject, those of opposing views will never come to agreement anyway. All it does is to risk causing bad blood. That is why I will never enter into a discussion about the rights or wrong in believing in it or not.
Much easier to keep an open mind, be prepared to look at all sides, and stay out of the futile arguments. Those who are agnostic or accept the possibility of an all powerful being will not even necessarily be interested in the Bible or the Christian story. The whole thing requires a lot more lateral thinking than just trying to refute bits of text from the Bible etc. All that sort of thing proves nothing!
All I have ever asked is that people keep their comments at least good mannered if they feel they have to mouth off about it. This forum is worth more than such vicious name calling as we have seen so far. No one deserves to be called mentally deficient because of their personal beliefs.
Les
#191
Scooby Senior
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: RIP - Tam the bam & Andy the Jock
Posts: 14,333
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Religion is used by many as an excuse to behave in the most appalling way to other people... similar in a way to racism. The trouble is there's a few bobble hat wearing / church attending few that pop down for a quick prayer and scone on a Sunday morning that don't really understand the holistic evil that is global religion.
#192
I had a wee read of a bible the other day, apparantly it took god 6 days to make everything here and only 1 day for the ENTIRE universe, I guess whoever wrote that bit didn't quite expect the universe to be so big
If the earths 4.54 billion years old, why did God wait until 2010 years ago to send his 'son' to earth ?
Seriously though I tried to read it with an open mind but it really is ridiculous
If the earths 4.54 billion years old, why did God wait until 2010 years ago to send his 'son' to earth ?
Seriously though I tried to read it with an open mind but it really is ridiculous
#193
Scooby Regular
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Pot Belly HQ
Posts: 16,694
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
#194
#195
Scooby Senior
I was not trying to present reasons why anyone should believe in a God (either sex by the way ) or an all powerful being if you prefer, or anyone else or nothing. I have said often enough that is a matter for the individual and I certainly would not try to influence anyone one way or the other.
The major point I was making, as ever, is that it is totally unnecessary to insult someone because they have different beliefs to yourself. All the nasty remarks such as accusations of mental deficiency etc are a symptom of uncertaincy in the mind of the person who is being so ill mannered. Why is it necessary to care anyway? I am not bothered what anyone else wants to believe. It would have no bearing on how I regard that person and as far as I am concerned it is strictly their affair.
All this guff about trying to prove or disprove one thing or another is a waste of time and effort. It is purely people trying to show us all how right they are and how wrong others are. Its a fail in any case! What is the point? Making insulting remarks does not strengthen the argument either, usually does the opposite.
Religion has always been a contentious subject, those of opposing views will never come to agreement anyway. All it does is to risk causing bad blood. That is why I will never enter into a discussion about the rights or wrong in believing in it or not.
Much easier to keep an open mind, be prepared to look at all sides, and stay out of the futile arguments. Those who are agnostic or accept the possibility of an all powerful being will not even necessarily be interested in the Bible or the Christian story. The whole thing requires a lot more lateral thinking than just trying to refute bits of text from the Bible etc. All that sort of thing proves nothing!
All I have ever asked is that people keep their comments at least good mannered if they feel they have to mouth off about it. This forum is worth more than such vicious name calling as we have seen so far. No one deserves to be called mentally deficient because of their personal beliefs.
Les
The major point I was making, as ever, is that it is totally unnecessary to insult someone because they have different beliefs to yourself. All the nasty remarks such as accusations of mental deficiency etc are a symptom of uncertaincy in the mind of the person who is being so ill mannered. Why is it necessary to care anyway? I am not bothered what anyone else wants to believe. It would have no bearing on how I regard that person and as far as I am concerned it is strictly their affair.
All this guff about trying to prove or disprove one thing or another is a waste of time and effort. It is purely people trying to show us all how right they are and how wrong others are. Its a fail in any case! What is the point? Making insulting remarks does not strengthen the argument either, usually does the opposite.
Religion has always been a contentious subject, those of opposing views will never come to agreement anyway. All it does is to risk causing bad blood. That is why I will never enter into a discussion about the rights or wrong in believing in it or not.
Much easier to keep an open mind, be prepared to look at all sides, and stay out of the futile arguments. Those who are agnostic or accept the possibility of an all powerful being will not even necessarily be interested in the Bible or the Christian story. The whole thing requires a lot more lateral thinking than just trying to refute bits of text from the Bible etc. All that sort of thing proves nothing!
All I have ever asked is that people keep their comments at least good mannered if they feel they have to mouth off about it. This forum is worth more than such vicious name calling as we have seen so far. No one deserves to be called mentally deficient because of their personal beliefs.
Les
at least someones talking sense. shame others won't read and think about what you've put.
#197
Religion is used by many as an excuse to behave in the most appalling way to other people... similar in a way to racism. The trouble is there's a few bobble hat wearing / church attending few that pop down for a quick prayer and scone on a Sunday morning that don't really understand the holistic evil that is global religion.
Why not admit that all these atrocities are down to certain people for their own selfish reasons. The average religion would never include such behaviour as part of their teachings, including Islam.
Les
#198
Religion was invented as an early form of "Control" to keep the masses well behaved else they will go to Hell.............. The Bible is a story book and nothing else.
In the "Name" of religion causes most of the world's conflicts conducted by extremists.
There are so many different religions and beliefs around the world that will make conflict inevitable.
In my opinion (and it is just my opinion) Religion is for weak minded people who "Need" something to believe in.
The Human brain naturally thinks that there must be something after death because of it's inquisitive nature. But in reality, when you're dead, you're dead!
If there really was a "God", He must be a real sadist to let all the pain and suffering of so many innocent people continue.
The more the human race learns about the Universe and how it came to be and works the less water the "God Created the earth and everything in it" holds. Anyone who still believes this is severely blinkered.
I have absolutely nothing against religion as long as I am not subjected to any of it's nonsensical ramblings by brainwashed idiots. The teachings of ALL religions are used to indoctrinate children at an early age before they have the ability to question it's accuracy which I think is very wrong.
Anyway, just my 2p's worth and my right to express myself.
In the "Name" of religion causes most of the world's conflicts conducted by extremists.
There are so many different religions and beliefs around the world that will make conflict inevitable.
In my opinion (and it is just my opinion) Religion is for weak minded people who "Need" something to believe in.
The Human brain naturally thinks that there must be something after death because of it's inquisitive nature. But in reality, when you're dead, you're dead!
If there really was a "God", He must be a real sadist to let all the pain and suffering of so many innocent people continue.
The more the human race learns about the Universe and how it came to be and works the less water the "God Created the earth and everything in it" holds. Anyone who still believes this is severely blinkered.
I have absolutely nothing against religion as long as I am not subjected to any of it's nonsensical ramblings by brainwashed idiots. The teachings of ALL religions are used to indoctrinate children at an early age before they have the ability to question it's accuracy which I think is very wrong.
Anyway, just my 2p's worth and my right to express myself.
Try some wider thinking about it all!
Les
#199
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (11)
How else can the notion of God be understood?
#200
I have absolutely nothing against religion as long as I am not subjected to any of it's nonsensical ramblings by brainwashed idiots. The teachings of ALL religions are used to indoctrinate children at an early age before they have the ability to question it's accuracy which I think is very wrong.
It's still control.
#203
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Cas Vegas
Posts: 60,269
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
#204
Scooby Regular
Proof of what?
I'm not confusing anything. You are the one saying truth is only what can be understood with the intellect, what can be validated with scientific method.
Got any 'proof' for that?
Sounds like a narrow definition.
Art can depict symbolism, it's signs and hints at truth which goes beyond intellectual truth, just like religion in a way.
I'm not confusing anything. You are the one saying truth is only what can be understood with the intellect, what can be validated with scientific method.
Got any 'proof' for that?
Sounds like a narrow definition.
Art can depict symbolism, it's signs and hints at truth which goes beyond intellectual truth, just like religion in a way.
I suppose you'd be happy being convicted of a crime you didn't commit based on the 'evidence' provided by two psychics? I mean, in your eyes, that kind of truth is just as valid as what can be understood with the intellect or validated with scientific method.
Of course you're talking about the symbolism of some higher being, or something beyond what we can actually understand. It's not difficult to comprehend how, with a more primitive understanding of their surroundings, humans would assume that there was something beyond what they can see that controlled everything. That doesn't make it any more real.
Last edited by GlesgaKiss; 04 September 2010 at 04:18 PM.
#205
Scooby Senior
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: RIP - Tam the bam & Andy the Jock
Posts: 14,333
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Simple, because that's not the reason why... it's more akin to their interpretation of these so called religious texts.... and there is the issue, a few books written a few thousand years ago based upon stories/fables of the times, not updated nor understood but taken word for word as the basis for modern day beliefs, or if interpreted in another way it's a license from a God to kill other non-believers....
#209
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (13)
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Swansea
Posts: 4,008
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And that I agree with Dawkins in that children should be taught the scientific explination, and not to believe everything they read. As they can challenge science, in some cultures Religion cannot be challenged and that is wrong.
I do feel that we need some philosophy/religion in our lives, but mainly so we can live with other people, and to help the people not as fortunate as ourselves. But as for Killing other people because their opinion differs, sure all religions say NOT to kill unless your a Klingon??
I do feel that we need some philosophy/religion in our lives, but mainly so we can live with other people, and to help the people not as fortunate as ourselves. But as for Killing other people because their opinion differs, sure all religions say NOT to kill unless your a Klingon??
Rather than "thats just the way it is" and not being allowed to challenge anything.
That is definitely wrong.
Last edited by Jimbob; 04 September 2010 at 05:32 PM.
#210
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Cas Vegas
Posts: 60,269
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aye, lad. That's why I put "indoctrinating" in speech marks.
Last edited by Bubba po; 04 September 2010 at 06:23 PM.