Stephen Hawking
03 September 2010, 06:26 PM
#121
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Cas Vegas
Posts: 60,269
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes, let's get bogged down in philosophical arguments about whether the red I see is seen the same by you. That's very helpful and pertinent to the discussion.
03 September 2010, 06:28 PM
#122
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 10,329
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Science is simply attempting to work out the way things are by what we can actually physically see. It's hardly a belief. Although if you were to listen to theory without evidence and just consider it likely, then that would be a belief, but it's still a very different thing to religion, as science isn't a system to live your life by, and you don't have to fear it.
But yes, I suppose you could be born into a family who teach the ability to reason and actually require proof of something before blindly believing it.
But yes, I suppose you could be born into a family who teach the ability to reason and actually require proof of something before blindly believing it.
What about morality, even love and desire, how does 'pure reason' deal with that? Ignore it? Teach nihilism?
Many great scientists have been Christians anyway. You, Dawkins etc conflate Christianity with fundamentalism. Not all Christians are fundies and accept that the bible is symbolic truth rather than literal truth.
Religion = Sybolism
Religion can hint at truths that is beyond Science.
03 September 2010, 06:30 PM
#123
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Epsom
Posts: 5,832
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes quite, because they are delusional, which is a mental illness. If they said they believed Harry Potter, the Flying Spaghetti Monster or Russell's teapot was real, that would be exactly equivalent and equally fabricated. Reality doesnt impinge on them because they have "FAITH!", that magic armour that deflects all thoughtful critisism of their ridiculous evidence free delusions. The point being that "FAITH!" requires no thinking, in fact encourages unthinking and pure belief based on NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER, and that is the WHOLE POINT of it. A more tortuous way of thinking is hard to imagine. Let alone as a way to lead you life. What a poverty of life they live
03 September 2010, 07:03 PM
#124
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 39,877
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes quite, because they are delusional, which is a mental illness. If they said they believed Harry Potter, the Flying Spaghetti Monster or Russell's teapot was real, that would be exactly equivalent and equally fabricated. Reality doesnt impinge on them because they have "FAITH!", that magic armour that deflects all thoughtful critisism of their ridiculous evidence free delusions. The point being that "FAITH!" requires no thinking, in fact encourages unthinking and pure belief based on NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER, and that is the WHOLE POINT of it. A more tortuous way of thinking is hard to imagine. Let alone as a way to lead you life. What a poverty of life they live
Les
03 September 2010, 07:11 PM
#125
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 10,329
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/truth
An example would be that it would be a matter of fact (and truth) to say that there was quite a large land mass further West than Britain after people from Britain witnessed it. But even that would require proof for others to take as proven fact. Obviously in the modern world we all know that America is there, because we can go there whenever we like.
On the other hand, it would be blind belief (like religion) to say that the earth was flat, just because maybe some ships never came back. In that case there probably would have been people who claimed to have witnessed the edge of the world, just like there are people who claim to have been touched by god, etc.
I think you're looking far too far into it with the language thing.
An example would be that it would be a matter of fact (and truth) to say that there was quite a large land mass further West than Britain after people from Britain witnessed it. But even that would require proof for others to take as proven fact. Obviously in the modern world we all know that America is there, because we can go there whenever we like.
On the other hand, it would be blind belief (like religion) to say that the earth was flat, just because maybe some ships never came back. In that case there probably would have been people who claimed to have witnessed the edge of the world, just like there are people who claim to have been touched by god, etc.
I think you're looking far too far into it with the language thing.
Read some Foucault BTW, nothing is as simple as it seems.
03 September 2010, 07:15 PM
#126
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 10,329
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes quite, because they are delusional, which is a mental illness. If they said they believed Harry Potter, the Flying Spaghetti Monster or Russell's teapot was real, that would be exactly equivalent and equally fabricated. Reality doesnt impinge on them because they have "FAITH!", that magic armour that deflects all thoughtful critisism of their ridiculous evidence free delusions. The point being that "FAITH!" requires no thinking, in fact encourages unthinking and pure belief based on NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER, and that is the WHOLE POINT of it. A more tortuous way of thinking is hard to imagine. Let alone as a way to lead you life. What a poverty of life they live
03 September 2010, 07:20 PM
#128
Scooby Senior
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: RIP - Tam the bam & Andy the Jock
Posts: 14,333
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
as opposed to believing in invisible people that live in a far away place basking in the love of a supreme being when they die.....
That's a big fat yes from me
That's a big fat yes from me
03 September 2010, 07:25 PM
#129
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (23)
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: In the fast lane
Posts: 3,458
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I haven't read the whole thread so apologies if this has been said, but I heard a happy clapper on the radio today arguing against Prof. Hawking's view.
He said that Hawking may well be right in saying that the universe was a result of the laws of physics.
"But" said the the zealot, "who do you think invented those laws"
There are some people who just won't listen to sound reasoning.
He said that Hawking may well be right in saying that the universe was a result of the laws of physics.
"But" said the the zealot, "who do you think invented those laws"
There are some people who just won't listen to sound reasoning.
03 September 2010, 07:29 PM
#130
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Epsom
Posts: 5,832
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Such as Les? Please explain to this biased shallow atheist so I might have my eyes opened to "broader view which might enable you to have a deeper understanding of life in general". What exactly am I missing in my insistence of evidence?
03 September 2010, 07:29 PM
#131
Scooby Senior
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Scotchland
Posts: 6,566
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You give the impression of being so narrow minded that you only believe what you feel that you want to believe. it is almost as though you are incapable of taking a broader view which might enable you to have a deeper understanding of life in general. There is an awful lot more to it than you indicate. Less bias would be a help.
Les
Les
03 September 2010, 07:30 PM
#132
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Zed Ess Won Hay Tee
Posts: 21,611
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Imagine if we could communicate with ants (bear with me) imagine trying to explain to them that life could exists across this utterly vast expanse, called the English channel.
The ants would pretty much say "your having a larf mate, us ants are like the most power full thing in the entire existance!" (even though they have seen a miniscule amount of it)
In universe terms, we are just ants, worthless, going about our business thinking we are all important and special
Look at this photo, i ****ing LOVE this photo!
Yeah, that pale blue dot is EARTH, look at me, i am a manager of a car wash, i employ people! i`m fooking baddasss!
NOPE!
I am actually rather pointless, i fully understand what i think i am, i made peace with that theroy a long time ago, hence why i have what people consider wierd views on death.
The ants would pretty much say "your having a larf mate, us ants are like the most power full thing in the entire existance!" (even though they have seen a miniscule amount of it)
In universe terms, we are just ants, worthless, going about our business thinking we are all important and special
Look at this photo, i ****ing LOVE this photo!
Yeah, that pale blue dot is EARTH, look at me, i am a manager of a car wash, i employ people! i`m fooking baddasss!
NOPE!
I am actually rather pointless, i fully understand what i think i am, i made peace with that theroy a long time ago, hence why i have what people consider wierd views on death.
03 September 2010, 07:38 PM
#133
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 39,877
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I haven't read the whole thread so apologies if this has been said, but I heard a happy clapper on the radio today arguing against Prof. Hawking's view.
He said that Hawking may well be right in saying that the universe was a result of the laws of physics.
"But" said the the zealot, "who do you think invented those laws"
There are some people who just won't listen to sound reasoning.
He said that Hawking may well be right in saying that the universe was a result of the laws of physics.
"But" said the the zealot, "who do you think invented those laws"
There are some people who just won't listen to sound reasoning.
Les
03 September 2010, 07:51 PM
#134
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 39,877
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
03 September 2010, 07:57 PM
#136
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Epsom
Posts: 5,832
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Which post caused you to make your "right of reply"?
03 September 2010, 08:03 PM
#137
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (23)
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: In the fast lane
Posts: 3,458
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Don't know Les, I wasn't there personally, and I'm neither Stephen Hawking nor the Pope.
Let's face it, neither "side" can offer absolute proof of the origin of the universe.
There's no right or wrong, just opinions backed up by faith on one hand and mathematics on the other.
Let's face it, neither "side" can offer absolute proof of the origin of the universe.
There's no right or wrong, just opinions backed up by faith on one hand and mathematics on the other.
03 September 2010, 08:19 PM
#138
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 39,877
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Really? - then how about this? I believe in anything and everything that there is rational and supporting evidence for. Hope that clears it up for you
What broader view is this you speak of ? Sky fairies, because of a 2000+ year old goat herder story? My apologies if my standards of evidence are a little higher than that, but I live in the REAL world, not a make believe one. I do have a deep understanding of life in general thanks and learn more every day. And that knowledge is why I ridicule fact free beliefs, because they earn it! Irrational thought is simply that, irrational, its not a gateway to "deeper understanding", quite the opposite. It leads to dogma and interlectual atrophy
Such as Les? Please explain to this biased shallow atheist so I might have my eyes opened to "broader view which might enable you to have a deeper understanding of life in general". What exactly am I missing in my insistence of evidence?
What broader view is this you speak of ? Sky fairies, because of a 2000+ year old goat herder story? My apologies if my standards of evidence are a little higher than that, but I live in the REAL world, not a make believe one. I do have a deep understanding of life in general thanks and learn more every day. And that knowledge is why I ridicule fact free beliefs, because they earn it! Irrational thought is simply that, irrational, its not a gateway to "deeper understanding", quite the opposite. It leads to dogma and interlectual atrophy
Such as Les? Please explain to this biased shallow atheist so I might have my eyes opened to "broader view which might enable you to have a deeper understanding of life in general". What exactly am I missing in my insistence of evidence?
Delighted to see that you believe in continuing to learn more about life every day. Stick with it, its a long job and one day you may even begin to understand how people can justifiably actually believe something different to yourself.
Nothing wrong in wanting to see the evidence, maybe one day the scientists will be able to produce the real evidence to prove all those theories!
Wouldn't it be amazing if they eventually came to the conclusion that there might even be an all powerful being who set it all off in the first place and engineered all those happenings which have given rise to all those theories which they can't prove! Even Darwin had thoughts along those lines. Who can say-I can't, one way or the other. Can you say in all honesty that is definitely untrue, can you back it up if you do? How strong is your "faith" in atheism?
Les
03 September 2010, 08:20 PM
#139
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 39,877
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Don't know Les, I wasn't there personally, and I'm neither Stephen Hawking nor the Pope.
Let's face it, neither "side" can offer absolute proof of the origin of the universe.
There's no right or wrong, just opinions backed up by faith on one hand and mathematics on the other.
Let's face it, neither "side" can offer absolute proof of the origin of the universe.
There's no right or wrong, just opinions backed up by faith on one hand and mathematics on the other.
Les
03 September 2010, 08:21 PM
#140
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Runway two seven right.
Posts: 6,652
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Personally I think the whole topic is fascinating, and I can see both sides.
Hawking's statement that the laws of physics started the big bang make sense to me. However the idea that a "creator" put all those elements in place to bring about that event sounds reasonable too.
Shame I'll be dead long before they get the answer. Ah well. Back to the footy.
Hawking's statement that the laws of physics started the big bang make sense to me. However the idea that a "creator" put all those elements in place to bring about that event sounds reasonable too.
Shame I'll be dead long before they get the answer. Ah well. Back to the footy.
03 September 2010, 08:21 PM
#141
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Runway two seven right.
Posts: 6,652
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Personally I think the whole topic is fascinating, and I can see both sides.
Hawking's statement that the laws of physics started the big bang make sense to me. However the idea that a "creator" put all those elements in place to bring about that event sounds reasonable too.
Shame I'll be dead long before they get the answer. Ah well. Back to the footy.
Hawking's statement that the laws of physics started the big bang make sense to me. However the idea that a "creator" put all those elements in place to bring about that event sounds reasonable too.
Shame I'll be dead long before they get the answer. Ah well. Back to the footy.
03 September 2010, 08:24 PM
#142
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 39,877
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
03 September 2010, 08:26 PM
#143
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 39,877
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Personally I think the whole topic is fascinating, and I can see both sides.
Hawking's statement that the laws of physics started the big bang make sense to me. However the idea that a "creator" put all those elements in place to bring about that event sounds reasonable too.
Shame I'll be dead long before they get the answer. Ah well. Back to the footy.
Hawking's statement that the laws of physics started the big bang make sense to me. However the idea that a "creator" put all those elements in place to bring about that event sounds reasonable too.
Shame I'll be dead long before they get the answer. Ah well. Back to the footy.
Les
03 September 2010, 09:09 PM
#144
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Epsom
Posts: 5,832
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
AARRRRGGGGHHHH!!! see what you did there? WHY is it justifiable to believe in omnipotent sky pixies? There is no EVIDENCE for it!!! You see the reasoning here Im sure, but you somehow try to dodge it every time. Rational thought involves reasoned arguement backed by evidence. Its really that simple
Wouldn't it be amazing if they eventually came to the conclusion that there might even be an all powerful being who set it all off in the first place and engineered all those happenings which have given rise to all those theories which they can't prove! Even Darwin had thoughts along those lines. Who can say-I can't, one way or the other.
Thats a joke, right?
03 September 2010, 09:18 PM
#145
Scooby Senior
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: 52 Festive Road
Posts: 28,311
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
03 September 2010, 09:46 PM
#146
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Home
Posts: 14,758
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Erm, one in the same actually. The holes in your knowledge are a little bit embarrassing.
Last edited by JTaylor; 03 September 2010 at 09:51 PM.
03 September 2010, 10:15 PM
#148
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 10,329
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I say that until evidence supports it, any argument is simply made up and of equal merit to the ramblings of a four year old, and the existence of Father Christmas, elves, hobbits, leprachauns and unicorns. Anyone seriously saying they believe in those would be sectioned under the mental health act, sky fairies fall in the same category.
03 September 2010, 10:28 PM
#149
Scooby Senior
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: West Midlands
Posts: 5,763
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Imagine if we could communicate with ants (bear with me) imagine trying to explain to them that life could exists across this utterly vast expanse, called the English channel.
The ants would pretty much say "your having a larf mate, us ants are like the most power full thing in the entire existance!" (even though they have seen a miniscule amount of it)
In universe terms, we are just ants, worthless, going about our business thinking we are all important and special
Look at this photo, i ****ing LOVE this photo!
Yeah, that pale blue dot is EARTH, look at me, i am a manager of a car wash, i employ people! i`m fooking baddasss!
NOPE!
I am actually rather pointless, i fully understand what i think i am, i made peace with that theroy a long time ago, hence why i have what people consider wierd views on death.
The ants would pretty much say "your having a larf mate, us ants are like the most power full thing in the entire existance!" (even though they have seen a miniscule amount of it)
In universe terms, we are just ants, worthless, going about our business thinking we are all important and special
Look at this photo, i ****ing LOVE this photo!
Yeah, that pale blue dot is EARTH, look at me, i am a manager of a car wash, i employ people! i`m fooking baddasss!
NOPE!
I am actually rather pointless, i fully understand what i think i am, i made peace with that theroy a long time ago, hence why i have what people consider wierd views on death.
Cheers,
mb