britishbulldog

iTrader: (1)

+1

GlesgaKiss

Science is simply attempting to work out the way things are by what we can actually physically see. It's hardly a belief. Although if you were to listen to theory without evidence and just consider it likely, then that would be a belief, but it's still a very different thing to religion, as science isn't a system to live your life by, and you don't have to fear it.

But yes, I suppose you could be born into a family who teach the ability to reason and actually require proof of something before blindly believing it.

StickyMicky

Atheists are on the rise, a new dawn of common sense is amongst us

I for one, welcome our now Tefal headed overlords

Leslie

It is interesting how when this subject is brought up how those who don't believe in the possibilty of an all powerful being of any kind immediately start jumping up and down in an intense overreaction and feel that they have to come out with gross and intensely unnecessary insults towards anyone who might believe in a God. How many times do you see religious believers behaving in such a nasty way towards atheists?

It a bit like the "protesting too much" syndrome. Are atheists so uncertain of their belief that they have to act in such a manner? Are they having to bolster up their beliefs to themselves I wonder?

Have they not noticed that the vast majority of religiously minded people just quietly get on with their own lives and do not seize on the slightest opportunity to run down those who profess not to believe in a God?

It is known as "tolerance". That basically means that we are all entitled to our own beliefs and that it is quite unnecessary to run down or insult someone who thinks differently. Doing so is an indication of the character of the person doing it and is nothing to write home about!

As David Lock says, neither style of belief can be proved or disproved. We are entitled to follow our own path in that respect.

My own background from school onwards is on the scientific side, we find new things out from time to time, but the pronouncements on the start of it all are based on theory and the final proofs have not yet been found. Not from want of trying either!

There is no reason why a religiously minded person cannot accept the facts that we know about evolution. That is instantly held up as a proof that there is no God. That is quite wrong so I will lay that one straightaway.

Hawking made a general announcement about how the universe could have started but he is unable to prove anything or describe how it could have happened scientifically. His was purely a bald statement. he is of course a very clever and intelligent man, but he does not have the definitive answer any more than anyone else.

Les

Miniman

iTrader: (2)

Buddhism, which is pretty big, plus a few other minor religions.

SRSport

You mean like I was saying in my last post.

It is curious how people who don't believe make it their 'religion'. If I didnt believe in aliens I wouldnt waste any time on a UFO thread trying my hardest to convert everyone in to believing there wasnt any intelligent life out there. Why would I bother, Id just let them get on with it.

SRSport

Definitely not. I love hearing about new discoveries, its fascinating but how does it prove God doesn't exist? Thats the bit I dont get.

Korrosiv

iTrader: (1)

You and most folk are missing the point here. The vastness of the universe is impossible for us to comprehend. In such a problem space every eventuality is more or less gauranteed. Thats what the 'monkey hitting a keyboard infinetly will type a given text' theorem is trying to point out. Infinite space seems so obvious in our world as we hear it all the time but when you consider what it means it is incredible.

As for atheists going ape and being at the stage where they NEED to make the religous understand you have mis-understood the non-religous. Atheists believe in reason and cannot comprehend a belief without it. That does not make them stupid or religion-phobic it just points out a lack of 'belief'. Just saying 'because I think so' doesn't wash in the majority of situations so and Atheist can't swallow it when a religous person says it.


I am an atheist but I promise you if gods hand came out of the sky and he said 'I exist' I'd be on my knees praying for forgivness. I am not above believing that in an infinite space there is some higher being that could control our reality. What if we are a tiny speck in a much larger existence and that existence is the same in a fractal Omniverse? I guess our higher being would be the next level up?

GlesgaKiss

Leslie - The Science isn't instantly held up as proof that there is no god. The fact that there is no proof of a god is enough to take care of that by itself.

And again, Athiesm is not a belief, merely a rejection of religion. Anyone arguing that it is a belief is wrong, plain and simple. To say that it's a belief is like saying that because someone rejects something without evidence, they must simply be believing. Murder trials would be interesting if the law was carried out on this basis: "There no evidence, but the people who think he did do it have just as valid beliefs as those who don't".

As far as jumping up and down goes... it's a thread about the existence of a god. Do you expect Athiests not to post their opinions here out of respect for something they don't see any proof of?

SRSport

Seriously, is that why people dont believe because they all expect Gods hand to come through the clouds, or something similar? Should he do that for every person that doesnt believe? What if they know someone who has seen God? Would they believe then or only if it happens to them.

GlesgaKiss

It doesn't, but the point is that nothing proves a god does exist. But every time something is discovered through science, people simply change the story of 'a creator' to fit the new findings. The point that these guys are trying to make is that people are deluding themselves when they believe in religion, but no one would argue that that's anyone elses business but theirs, unless it begins to have an effect on legal decisions, and makes people do things that they otherwise wouldn't do absent of the delusion. Islamic extremists are a good example of that.

SRSport

But how are they making the point? They're just saying 'we've discovered this and err, there's no God.

GlesgaKiss

Yes, that is exactly why they don't believe. And I wouldn't believe if one of my friends told me that either, just like I don't believe the people who have told me they've seen ghosts, etc.

GlesgaKiss

If you watch those programs/read the books by Richard Dawkins you can see he explains everything with good logic. It's not just some sorry rag of a newspaper saying 'there's no god', as you put it. He actually provides anyone interested with the reasoning behind Athiesm.

SRSport

Like theres no proof or is there another argument?

I admit I havent watched a program all the way through usually because I have heard some of these explanations and found flaws in them, then decided to not waste any more time watching. The scientific side is excellent though.

Korrosiv

iTrader: (1)

The point I was making is a firm belief in evidence and logic means atheists cannot comprehend blind belief. As soon as I have proof I'm with you guys

The reality is there is no, and never will be, any proof of any god so what we are actually discussing is belief. Which is why I pointed out in my first post that arguing against irrational beliefs is pretty pointless as the answer is always 'because I believe'.

Edit-typos

GlesgaKiss

No, that's pretty much the only reason you need not to believe something.

stef_2010

iTrader: (3)

I'm not missing the point, I understand exactly what you mean

its inevitable that there will be a planet just like ours, with the perfect conditions for life due to the number of stars with planets orbiting them

Your telling me us being here is purely down to probabilty and you in no way consider it could be to do with a 'higher power'

Like I said I don't believe in 'God' but I also don't rule a 'higher power' totally out of the equation, however unlikely it may be

Korrosiv

iTrader: (1)

Erm you didn't qoute the bit below where i say the same as yourself about not ruling out the possibility of a higher being, or infact multiple ones at that lol!

I think I mis-understood your post-I thought you were saying the probability of us being here was so small it made you wonder about the chance of god creating us?

SRSport

I think you're looking for the wrong type of proof. Extrinsic proof will never be found as this will negate the need for intrinsic proof which is there to be found and what keeps Christians believing. Believe me I have it, well you probably dont believe me because I can prove it.

Intrinsic proof will lead to a much more personal level of a relationship with God than extrinsic proof would ever do, this I believe is why you will never find it.

Daz34

So Leslie, when exactly was the last time a 'believer' was stoned or burned to death by atheists?

Yes I really wish those bloody atheists would stop knocking on my door pushing darwinism at me.

And those loony atheists in the town centre shouting about free will.



I do find it amazing that in the 21st century an African-American can become president of the US but an atheist almost certainly couldn't.

GlesgaKiss

Intrinsic proof roughly translated = Belief. Back to square one. You even say it yourself in your exact words "what keeps Christians believing". If it was just evidently real, you wouldn't have to believe, would you? Which brings things back to the fact that it is simply a delusion - a blind belief for its own sake.

SRSport

Intrinsic proof = knowing something to be true through personal experience and moving on to square 3.

tony de wonderful

Science is just a method for investigating the natural world, it's not facts or truth in itself. It's even built on a faith of sorts in for example the relationship between cause and effect and the nature of objectivity, duality etc.

When you get down to it, it even relies on language to transmit its 'truth'. Language is flawed and limited, it changes over time as well. How do we describe 'truth' with an imperfect tool? What even is truth?

Bubba po

This argument is a fallacy - it's only if you predict this particular outcome from the starting conditions that the odds are so astronomical. Every other eventuality is just as unlikely, so this particular outcome is nothing unusual.

GlesgaKiss

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/truth

An example would be that it would be a matter of fact (and truth) to say that there was quite a large land mass further West than Britain after people from Britain witnessed it. But even that would require proof for others to take as proven fact. Obviously in the modern world we all know that America is there, because we can go there whenever we like.

On the other hand, it would be blind belief (like religion) to say that the earth was flat, just because maybe some ships never came back. In that case there probably would have been people who claimed to have witnessed the edge of the world, just like there are people who claim to have been touched by god, etc.

I think you're looking far too far into it with the language thing.

Bubba po

Leslie, atheists don't have a belief. They have a LACK of belief. Which is why they have no consistency or common ground over why they don't believe. They are just flummoxed by human beings that can believe something for which there is no evidence at all.

And it's not atheists that are trying to prevent the Theory of Evolution from being taught in schools, despite the overwhelming evidence that it's true.

Martin2005

I think you stated earlier that you had an open mind on this issue, for me that is the perfect stance.

I think you may have slightly misunderstood me (probably my fault, sometimes I find it hard to convey in text what I mean on this issue).

I am certainly no believer in God the Almighty, it doesn’t fit with my sense of what is logical. For me most organised religious institutions are incredibly insular and narrow-minded, as are some of the followers.

But when you sit back and start contemplating the Universe and our existence in it, it does make me wonder, and the very fact that I can wonder is in itself a curious thing, why should a piece of meat, care about this at all? Can we really explain everything that goes on in our consciousness as biological and electrical signals?

If our existence is fleeting and actually a fluke of physics and chemistry and then our lives and the life we choose to live are actually irrelevant. Why does the man run into a burning building to save another? Why do we strive for ever greater knowledge? Are there actually no consequences for peoples actions? And if so why are some people inherently good, and others bad? These are but a very few of the questions that science certainly hasn’t been able to answer as yet?

For me this isn’t proof, but you mentioned evidence, I’d suggest some of the things I pointed out above could be some sort of evidence (circumstantial maybe), not proof of course, but certainly things to ponder before dismissing the whole notion of god and/or a more substantial existence.

Obviously science and religious thinking are very much at opposite ends of the spectrum at the moment …but just to be provocative; what happens when science really starts to get to grips with how our universe works? I mean until very recently ‘dark energy’ hadn’t been discovered, something as huge and fundamental to the way the universe works we didn’t even know about! So maybe, just maybe our scientific understanding just isn’t good enough as yet to even know where to look or even what to look for. One day scientific and religious theories could actually start to converge…like I said I’m just being provocative… the lump of meat between my ears makes do that sometimes.

Leslie

We are not that much at cross purposes.

The lack of proof of the existence of a God does not mean that there isn't one. In the same way that the lack of scientific proof rather than theory does not prove that Science is necessarily wrong. You have to make your own choice!

We could argue about the finer points of the definition of Atheism for ages I am sure. It has always seemed to me that those who profess Atheism will say that there is no God. As far as I am concerned, they are fully entitled to hold such a belief. I would never run down an Atheist for his honest beliefs.

My point about "jumping up and down" was that as I said above we are all entitled to believe what we personally think is right. No one should ever be blamed for that. I have said in the past that if you honestly follow what your conscience is telling you then you can't be criticised for that.

I do however take exception to those who do have religious beliefs being called all those names which infer that you have to be mentally deficient etc. for holding such a belief. Insulting someone in such a way indicates that the person making the unpleasant and inaccurate accusations has an ulterior motive in that he is uncertain of his own state of mind and is trying to justify it to himself.

The simple answer is "live and let live".

Les

Hysteria1983

I hear you.