utaka

cheers mate everyone seems to find their new car in a different league to the last 600bhp must be ballistic. i mit pop over and say hi at the ta final when the bussiness end of things is tied up the pro guys are just crazy
no matter how any times i watch gobstopper videos the onboard ones are just crazy, looks like a playstation game, how olly or any of the othr guys cope with those cars is a mystery to me.
500 wil be my mid boost setting where i think i will spend a majority of the time until i am confident in the car, which i think is going to take some getting used too, but its all part of the fun, i dont think ive asked you gefore but what is the spec of your engine, any pics?

Mocom Racing

iTrader: (2)

I feel the Club Challenge has lost it's way here. For me Club should be for those with a real road car - you know, something you wouldn't mind taking the family to the coast in, who fancy taking part in a competitive environment. I know of a few people who would love to enter but feel there's little point competing against what are essentially race cars. Forget your reasoning that you're an amateur, aren't all those other than the small number of Professional drivers in Pro also amateur drivers?

You have a race car and to be fair to those others wishing to compete you should be running in Club Pro.

Fai17

iTrader: (2)

Thansk for sharing that

I will need to be ready for some of that when mines goes back on the road

shawy1976

iTrader: (8)

i agree with you there my car is similar spec to utakas but it has a dash dodger cage (bolt in ) now for me to enter club pro i need a full new cage, plumbed in extinguisher , ards test thats just off the top of my head i have spent thousands on my car probaly around 30k and money is very tight so i cant afford the extra £3000 to enter club pro, if they let me enter with just the ards test thats what class i,ll be in (club pro). if not club challenge, my car will be road legal 600+ bhp and less than 1100 kilos (bioethanol) i know there were a few people with the same cage as mine in club pro last year . so its not just about picking the class its the extra money needed to get in the class .

utaka

same here ive spent 30k but dont hve the spare cash for next season to get a weld in cage and the other array of parts you need to be club pro, plus this is competetive motorsport, ive done a lot many many track days but thats not enough to preapare you for time attack you need a few rounds to get your confidence up, im not a pro driver and i feel its fair for me to find my feet, fair enough if i get moved out of the class but i should imagine ill be in club challenge running low boost to begin with.
maybe they should split club class into two under 400 over 400 or club race challenge, so the race cars in club who are riving cars like mine andys shawys duncans etc are sub catogorised. just due to me having loads of power means nothing its how you use it that counts i.e the gugliami elise running 550 bhp winning the last t.a pro round with the 800bhp nitrous munching gobstopper coming second plus some tracks dont suit loads of power and i think thats what evens it up a bit, driver talent is whats really important

utaka

Mocom Racing finished 15th overall, with 14 points, in the 2008 Time Attack series scoring points from just 3 rounds in a lardy 1700kgs Newage STi with just 400bhp!
2009's 1200kgs / 500bhp project underway

so what class is this in then club challenge i assume
my car will be the same weight with the same power so if thats the case you should be in club pro too????

trails

iTrader: (41)

the new car will be in club pro...the byline should read 2010

JB1

I agree with the club level losing it's way. There should be stricter rules in place. People seem scared to move up to club pro due to driving ability. If you bought an old F1 car you wouldn't enter it in an F2 race. The same should apply. There are a lot of cars that are running in club that should be in club pro. The % rule that moves people about isn't all that fair as someone who can really drive but has a lower spec car might be moved where someone with a bigger buget and much better car might stay in club. Car spec should dictate class, not what the driver thinks his ability he is. Restrictor plates would be a good leveler.

shawy1976

iTrader: (8)

I think your wrong about people being scared with driving ability more like not having the funds to run the engines to there full potential

I,m certainly not scared of going into club pro but why should i run my car at 2.1 bar with race fuel @ 700bhp (to be competitive) .i would rather be @ 1.6 1.7 bar with say 600 bhp and keep my car 1/2 reliable and save probably £10000 a year .

Some people dont get free labour and priced parts it all out of our own pockets so why should we destroy our cars to try and keep up with the big boys, if someone offers me free labour on my car for engine and gearbox builds for sponsership. i will run 2.1 bar and go in club pro .

andyscoobym3

iTrader: (11)

if you get free labour, why dont you get a built engine, after all we are in 2009 and things do move on and cars get more powerfull.

JB1

I understand what you are saying. Cash is a major factor. Just because I have a sponsor or two (that I worked very hard to get) doesn't mean I have unlimited work and parts available. This year has cost (me) a fortune. I get reasonable work done, and I offer my services back, so more of a mutual partnership. But the labour is only up to a point, after all it's not like I'm S Leob.

I would love to get a new engine built but I haven't the money for it, even if it was only the parts I had to buy. Then the cage etc as you have mentioned. TBH though if I had any more money I would lighten my lardy newage and get wider arches and rubber rather than more power.

The scared comment was more a generalisation rather than a snipe at anyone specific on here. The organisers should set the rules rather than the competitors just deciding where they should run. If the rules were more specific then I think it would be better.

TA is expensive. I suppose that's relative to how much money you have, but for me I think it is very expensive to run in.

utaka

I CERTAINLY DONT HAVE THE FUNDS AS I SAID TO ENTER CLUB PRO I HAVENT GOT MONEY TO COSTANTLY RUN ON FULL BOOST AND KEEP REBUILDING ENGINES. I REALLY WANT THIS ENGINE TO LAST ME A GOOD SEASON AND I WILL SEE WHAT MY SITUATION IS RGAURDING FUNDS ETC. NO ONE IS SCARED/ DOUBTS ABILITY WE WOULDNT OWN THE CARS WE DO IF WE WERE

andyscoobym3

iTrader: (11)

good point.
i also agree to a degree with your other statement. but lets be honest if we were all just interested in our driving ability then we would of all entered a restricted race series like , caterham accademy, xr challenge ,mx5 challenge, where all speeds are very similar. the truth is we are not

Adam Kindness

iTrader: (1)

Utaka - You dont have the funds to enter club pro?!?! Why do you think its going to cost that much more? If you were in club.... do you think you could win it by not having to resort to going flat out (and going by your comments - potentially breaking things)

Adam Kindness

iTrader: (1)

andyscoobym3 - 650bhp-600lbft (rounded up) in a 1100kg car is going to be very quick compared to most Club cars! Are you doing just one round?

P20SPD

iTrader: (1)

I will reserve judgement until i have seen Andy's car in the flesh this weekend, but from pics i have seen on here of Utakas car, and pics i have seen of Shawys car, and add them to the suggested power outputs, they should be in club pro IMO.

Based on your car specs, there will be NO real additional costs to running in club pro over that of club. You dont have to run race fuel in Club Pro!

P20SPD

iTrader: (1)

You cant just look at simple engine power, its Power To Weight Ratio that is important in that kind of argument.

The two guys leading TA Club Pro this year are in their first year!

Adam Kindness

iTrader: (1)

yup.... it kinda puts my efforts of building a time attack car for club class to shame.
I was going to compete at Brands with 270bhp (Impreza 2dr) (but with multipoint weld in cage) but bearing failure at a trackday on the way to brands put a stop to that LOL. Now its getting a new engine in, new turbo and maybe 350bhp for Snetterton. 600+ bhp in a fairly light car just isnt 'club'

Our Skyline (been in TA for last 3 seasons) is still 'low powered' (480-500bhp) compared to the other skylines and I even question whether that should be in Club LOL. Its 200kg heavier and 100bhp less than your club Impreza's with a woman driving


If you cant afford a decent cage.... maybe re-think your priorities... 400bhp is plenty enough to get into trouble :| (EDIT: had a look at your cage and is that not OK for Club Pro rules?! I cant remember them. If not, what was the thinking behind going for that cage? We made a mistake with our skyline... we have a dash dodger cage which limits our competative options for other events. With the Impreza we just fired in a weld-in multi point first off. Big initial outlay, but hopefully a saving in the lond run - and makes it elagabile for Nippon/LMA etc etc)

Another point to make note of... This years front runners in Club... Shane, Duncan and Russ wouldnt be embarresed in Club Pro. Shane was moved up a class, and using his results he's sitting 3rd in Club Pro.

utaka

you know what, all i wanted to do was build a good car, document it on here as a record for myself and for something for you guysto read and go and enter my first competetive motorsports series. so far all ive had are people telling me that ive got to go in club pro, people like me make the series unfair, im scared of club pro, is it because i cant drive bla bla bla. to be honest i dont care weather im club or club pro, i just wanted to enter time attack to have some enjoyment of my car with some likeminded people and feel the joy a 500bhp lap of the track gives you. ill just go in whatever class im put in and do what i can to the best of my ability, if im in club i then so be it the decision is not mine to make as andy said we dont race in a single make series where all cars run the same power.
to be up there in club pro 600+ will be the only real chance of being competetive which then brigs up the same argument of how do i compete when there are cars in club pro with 700+bhp and have been competing for the 5 years the series has been running. maybe the higher bhp cars in club should run some sort of ballast or be sub catogorised as i said earlier. i went into this with the idea of having some fun meeting some new people and hopefully to have some success, that is all. i think there is no point soundind off on here if people are genuinely not happy with the catogories you should get together and either approach of write to the organisers

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

No doubt he has talent, but he also has a fair deal more than 550 bhp when the NOS is used in the lotus (exige btw)

My take on the spirit of the class split is:

Club Challenge is about road cars hence why they need to be road legal.

Club Pro is pro car with owner driver.

Pro is pro teams running their tuning company cars with or without pro drivers.

Very difficult (read impossible to define class on power or weight) - all these discussions have already been had.... look on the TA forum for all that. Also impossible to define based on support/sponsorship as this in itself is difficult to define. Does anyone competing in any form of motorsport do it without ANY form of sponsorship ? They'd be daft not to negotiate a discount or two for promotion etc.

As for running in club cos its cheaper cos you can do it on low boost or low risk to the engine. Please come play in the game and you will see how hard or easy you find it.

Steve, JB, Adam and I are fully aware of the effort, expense and everything needed to do well in TA - there is a huge difference from being very quick on a track day to being quick enough in TA with TA type traffic.

Adam Kindness

iTrader: (1)

Dont take it personaly We are just chewing the fat.

andyscoobym3

iTrader: (11)

club pro or club challenge

andy h

trails

iTrader: (41)

^^^awesome looking set up and pots of power gotta be Pro surly ?

shawy1976

iTrader: (8)

sorry utaka for jumping in your thread like this

At the end of the day i was nieve and purchased the wrong cage my mistake as you did adam .

But i,ve spent thousands on the inside of the car to make it look good i really dont want to be pulling it apart again welding drilling more holes and repainting the car after all the work i have put into it .
My car has a bolt in cage , full dash , 6 speed box , will pass a uk mot and be road worthy the same as yours adam ? some of the parts on my car are inferior to yours adam but i,ll be running more power ,surely its about pushing the rules to the limit if people cant afford a engine build and bigger turbo is that my fault ?

It isnt in the same class as the club pro cars , wide track, full weld in cages , mxl, motec dashes ,more power plus most i would have thought have some type of backing from tuners .
I think my car is (will be) too powerfull for club challenge but also nowhere near the same class as some of the other cars in club pro . Another class needed maybe ?
I,m really not fussed which class i go in all i want to do is enjoy the car and try to be competitive. one thing for sure though i wont be rebulding it again so if its not up to time attack regs i,ll do scoobysprint

P20SPD

iTrader: (1)

Club Pro Andy

Utaka, it's not a personal dig, please dont take it that way. I think Duncan sums up the class structures pretty well IMO.

Adam Kindness

iTrader: (1)

This is getting confusing LOL. Which car is yours Shawy? You are running more power than me? (I take it you mean the Impreza with a blown engine LOL so not hard ) But it will be a road legal sub 350bhp Impreza with ancient Tein HR's and standard brakes. That spec isnt hard to better LOL

There is no clear cut solution to the classes. There will always be people with bigger specs and more money. But I guess what I'm alluding to is that people should be relied apon to enter the class which really fits the car. As it stands (rules and regs) its a bit too easy to enter club with a moster car.

From an outside point of view.... Even I think our Skyline should be in Club Pro, with Club being for more standard or tamer trackday cars..... like our Impreza.

Our Skyline - repsonsive 500bhp, extensive lightening, huge brakes, great suspension. We had a bit of backing in the past. Help with labour, and some part. But nothing in 2009.

Our Impreza - 2nd hand engine, 2d hand turbo. Crap susp, Crap Brakes. Expensive cage, seats etc. Maybe 350bhp if it all comes together in time. (Will be 400+ later once i sort out fueling though... just wont have time to get it all done before Snet)

In summary.... Its not a perfect class structure, but its better than 2008.

Its the taking part that counts, and it takes a LOT of effort (not to mention funding) to compete.... let alone win Club or Club Pro.

shawy1976

iTrader: (8)

My car is the 1 you said the cage looks ok for pro class (i think )
getting confused myself .

As i have said i,m happy to go in whatever class i,m put in by timeattack i will let them decide but i wont change and rip things out of my car to go in higher classes .
As with most of the people spending 30k plus on there car they want to be competitive but my main aim is to have fun and drive a fast car legally

utaka

put a pic up.
im getting stressed now ive spent the past six months slaving over this ******* car now im told its not suitable, im not taking it to heart but its hard not too. the car wont be competetive in club pro but too much for club, so what covers this grey area a few of us are now finding ouselves in. might have my car limited to 450 for first season, noone can moan about power if i win then

Adam Kindness

iTrader: (1)

the risk is running too quick for club.... and getting punted up a class to Club Pro. You then have 2 choices...... cough up to meet the club pro SAFETY regs (and ARDS) between rounds.... or not compete (thats the way I understand the rule)

No one is saying your car doesnt meet the regs..... just that its towards the high end of Club. I was actually more referring to the power of AndyScoobyM3's in my posts above.

If you have any Q's its prob best to ask Rob/Andy Barnes or make a topic on the TimeAttack forum

Anyway... Back On Topic. Get some pics of your build up

shawy1976

iTrader: (8)