New Civic Type R is hot hatch King.
01 February 2007, 07:04 PM
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01 February 2007, 10:36 PM
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[quote=VXRBOY;6613926]
I don't usually get involved in the arguments but VXR your statement is...well OTT. Dreamweaver was describing how he saw the VXR and stated it was his opinion and suddenly you have to resort to calling him a Nescafe Coffee hand shaker 
.
Your response is the one thats offensive and personal when all Dreamweaver was doing was just describing his opinion about a car.
When you are selling your house do you start calling the potential buyers names when they say they are not keen on the garden layout ?
I sort of understand the long and squashed observation even though I actually like the Astra VXR alot and recently visited a Vauxhall Dealer to see one in the flesh.
I think what the guys here are trying to say is that for them the Honda Civic Type-R is the better car because its more versatile and well thought out. Also the residuals are going to be good if the previous model is anything to go by. Fords and Vauxhalls always seem to be in free fall depreciation especially for the first 2 years. You are focusing purely on the performance aspects and although relevant as it is after all a "hot hatch". Numbers and bhp figures are not the "be all and end all" for alot of people which is why they are voicing this opinion.
Various magazines have spoken about the VXR handling and not being able to get the power down in a fwd car. In fact I think it was demonstrated on tv. Why that opinion also voiced by many car journalists makes someone a "Tommy Tanker" is totally beyond me.
I would have thought a "30 year old professional" was above that kind of behaviour or conclusion.
Better in what way? Because they have a few BHP more, that you can't get down on the tarmac anyway, or better in some other way that I don't understand? They look good, are inexpensive, have enough power to enjoy and should be reliable. VXR will be similar, but in no way "better".
To me the VXR looks like a long squashed chavtastic piece of plastic, I wouldn't buy one if they were the cheapest around. That is all IMO though, it would be crap if we all liked the same thing!! QUOTE)
Now now, tryingto have a debate here and you go and get all offensive, you ******. Who says you cant get the power down? you can and i'm running 300bhp and still doing it. All i was saying was they are all the same, thanks for saying the same, but then you seem to go ff on one. Long and squashed
have you ever even seen one.
To me the VXR looks like a long squashed chavtastic piece of plastic, I wouldn't buy one if they were the cheapest around. That is all IMO though, it would be crap if we all liked the same thing!! QUOTE)
Now now, tryingto have a debate here and you go and get all offensive, you ******. Who says you cant get the power down? you can and i'm running 300bhp and still doing it. All i was saying was they are all the same, thanks for saying the same, but then you seem to go ff on one. Long and squashed
have you ever even seen one.. Your response is the one thats offensive and personal when all Dreamweaver was doing was just describing his opinion about a car.
When you are selling your house do you start calling the potential buyers names when they say they are not keen on the garden layout ?
I sort of understand the long and squashed observation even though I actually like the Astra VXR alot and recently visited a Vauxhall Dealer to see one in the flesh.
I think what the guys here are trying to say is that for them the Honda Civic Type-R is the better car because its more versatile and well thought out. Also the residuals are going to be good if the previous model is anything to go by. Fords and Vauxhalls always seem to be in free fall depreciation especially for the first 2 years. You are focusing purely on the performance aspects and although relevant as it is after all a "hot hatch". Numbers and bhp figures are not the "be all and end all" for alot of people which is why they are voicing this opinion.
Various magazines have spoken about the VXR handling and not being able to get the power down in a fwd car. In fact I think it was demonstrated on tv. Why that opinion also voiced by many car journalists makes someone a "Tommy Tanker" is totally beyond me.
I would have thought a "30 year old professional" was above that kind of behaviour or conclusion.
Last edited by Fabioso; 02 February 2007 at 12:32 AM.
02 February 2007, 08:33 AM
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[QUOTE=Fabioso;6616320][quote=VXRBOY;6613926]
I don't usually get involved in the arguments but VXR your statement is...well OTT. Dreamweaver was describing how he saw the VXR and stated it was his opinion and suddenly you have to resort to calling him a Nescafe Coffee hand shaker.
Your response is the one thats offensive and personal when all Dreamweaver was doing was just describing his opinion about a car.
When you are selling your house do you start calling the potential buyers names when they say they are not keen on the garden layout ?
I sort of understand the long and squashed observation even though I actually like the Astra VXR alot and recently visited a Vauxhall Dealer to see one in the flesh.
I think what the guys here are trying to say is that for them the Honda Civic Type-R is the better car because its more versatile and well thought out. Also the residuals are going to be good if the previous model is anything to go by. Fords and Vauxhalls always seem to be in free fall depreciation especially for the first 2 years. You are focusing purely on the performance aspects and although relevant as it is after all a "hot hatch". Numbers and bhp figures are not the "be all and end all" for alot of people which is why they are voicing this opinion.
Various magazines have spoken about the VXR handling and not being able to get the power down in a fwd car. In fact I think it was demonstrated on tv. Why that opinion also voiced by many car journalists makes someone a "Tommy Tanker" is totally beyond me.
I would have thought a "30 year old professional" was above that kind of behaviour or conclusion.
Yes your right i misunderstood what dreamweaver was saying and i apoligise for that. But the residual thing is wrong look at the prices of old gsi's and type r's. The VXR is a much better car than the old gsi and there are less being made so will hold its own i think.
Once again the torque steer thing comes into to play.
I suggest people have a go at driving a VXR and make their own minds up about that, it is hugely overplayed. The Top Gear test had a pre-production car without the full VXR running gear on it. Also various magazines have also said that when it was first tested it had moves beyond cars like the golf and meganne.
I don't usually get involved in the arguments but VXR your statement is...well OTT. Dreamweaver was describing how he saw the VXR and stated it was his opinion and suddenly you have to resort to calling him a Nescafe Coffee hand shaker
. Your response is the one thats offensive and personal when all Dreamweaver was doing was just describing his opinion about a car.
When you are selling your house do you start calling the potential buyers names when they say they are not keen on the garden layout ?
I sort of understand the long and squashed observation even though I actually like the Astra VXR alot and recently visited a Vauxhall Dealer to see one in the flesh.
I think what the guys here are trying to say is that for them the Honda Civic Type-R is the better car because its more versatile and well thought out. Also the residuals are going to be good if the previous model is anything to go by. Fords and Vauxhalls always seem to be in free fall depreciation especially for the first 2 years. You are focusing purely on the performance aspects and although relevant as it is after all a "hot hatch". Numbers and bhp figures are not the "be all and end all" for alot of people which is why they are voicing this opinion.
Various magazines have spoken about the VXR handling and not being able to get the power down in a fwd car. In fact I think it was demonstrated on tv. Why that opinion also voiced by many car journalists makes someone a "Tommy Tanker" is totally beyond me.
I would have thought a "30 year old professional" was above that kind of behaviour or conclusion.
Yes your right i misunderstood what dreamweaver was saying and i apoligise for that. But the residual thing is wrong look at the prices of old gsi's and type r's. The VXR is a much better car than the old gsi and there are less being made so will hold its own i think.
Once again the torque steer thing comes into to play.
I suggest people have a go at driving a VXR and make their own minds up about that, it is hugely overplayed. The Top Gear test had a pre-production car without the full VXR running gear on it. Also various magazines have also said that when it was first tested it had moves beyond cars like the golf and meganne.
02 February 2007, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by VXRBOY
I suggest people have a go at driving a VXR and make their own minds up about that
I do like the look of the new Civic (except possibly the back??), and will be having a good look at it when the time comes to change cars..
Chris
02 February 2007, 09:37 PM
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I know thats what I did... Had a VXR demo car for an entire Saturday, was a nice car, and quick.. I bought a MkV Gti after a 10min test drive the following morning though..
I do like the look of the new Civic (except possibly the back??), and will be having a good look at it when the time comes to change cars..
Chris
I do like the look of the new Civic (except possibly the back??), and will be having a good look at it when the time comes to change cars..
Chris
GTI - a nice car for the wife IMHO. VW need to rediscover the magic of driver excitment. Going to try the ED30 to see if thats the answer.
I cant get my head round the CTR. It makes the VXR look like a car for the well healed. I'm sure that a drive to your local Big Mac will attract a certain type of attention in the CTR. The outside has burbery influences, but the inside looks like it might have a touch of class.
Why Honda continues with is low torque low drivabilty engines I dont know. My ATR was after the MCS, the worst car Ive owned.
Jonathan
02 February 2007, 09:51 PM
#67
Yadda Yadda Yadda, Vtec, whatever,
Its all fine until you get your **** handed to you on a plate by a Focus ST or an Astra VXR, Hona have moved the Type R's market position so they can slide in a super hot version to compete with the rest of the, Type R is the new Type S.
Its all fine until you get your **** handed to you on a plate by a Focus ST or an Astra VXR, Hona have moved the Type R's market position so they can slide in a super hot version to compete with the rest of the, Type R is the new Type S.
02 February 2007, 10:14 PM
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I bought a VXR after owning a MKV GTI. I have just sold my MK2 2.0 TT and that shows the rest of the VAG group how the GTI should of been.
GTI - a nice car for the wife IMHO. VW need to rediscover the magic of driver excitment. Going to try the ED30 to see if thats the answer.
I cant get my head round the CTR. It makes the VXR look like a car for the well healed. I'm sure that a drive to your local Big Mac will attract a certain type of attention in the CTR. The outside has burbery influences, but the inside looks like it might have a touch of class.
Why Honda continues with is low torque low drivabilty engines I dont know. My ATR was after the MCS, the worst car Ive owned.
Jonathan
GTI - a nice car for the wife IMHO. VW need to rediscover the magic of driver excitment. Going to try the ED30 to see if thats the answer.
I cant get my head round the CTR. It makes the VXR look like a car for the well healed. I'm sure that a drive to your local Big Mac will attract a certain type of attention in the CTR. The outside has burbery influences, but the inside looks like it might have a touch of class.
Why Honda continues with is low torque low drivabilty engines I dont know. My ATR was after the MCS, the worst car Ive owned.
Jonathan
Not driven the ATR, but owned a DC2 which was supposedly "low torque", and it was never an issue... bl00dy great car... (MCS?????)
Just as well though, as otherwise it would all be a bit boring with everyone driving the same car...
Chris
02 February 2007, 11:47 PM
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I had an ATR and it was a fantastic car. Simply sensational ride and handling. All it needed to be perfect was a sixth forward gear. Show me a road test anywhere that says it is as bad as you say.
03 February 2007, 01:14 AM
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personally i can't understand why the civic is getting such a slating already when hardly anyone has driven or seen one yet. looks wise it really is no different to to the vxr in terms of spoilers, skirts and alloys and both look great imo. from a few of the road tests that i've read the civic is still the more hardcore of the current crop so has not really bloated out that much when you consider the vxr, gti, cupra etc all weigh more. ok so it's no 'type r' of old but most (including myself) would trade some weight for curtain airbags, climate and vsa etc. and despite the lack of power upgrade will still be as quick as a focus st.
as for the torque issue this will rage on for years but for me i wouldn't have a car any other way. there will always be times when a good dose of torque is useful but i find the linearity and instantaneous response fantastic. compared to other na engines most are engineered for peak torque way down the rev range and for me there's nothing worse than an engine that runs out of puff when you need it most.
in most cases people don't race other cars on the roads but simply buy a fast car to go for spirited drives down their fave a/b roads. under these conditions the lack of torque is never an issue as you're up on the cam most of the time and when in vtec the civic is as fast as any other hot hatch out there. it just delivers it's power in a more progressive way.
so i reckon the new type r will be pretty decent. a shame honda couldn't match the jdm for power but on uk roads it ain't going to make a lot of difference and am sure the postives will outweigh the failure to add more power.
as for the torque issue this will rage on for years but for me i wouldn't have a car any other way. there will always be times when a good dose of torque is useful but i find the linearity and instantaneous response fantastic. compared to other na engines most are engineered for peak torque way down the rev range and for me there's nothing worse than an engine that runs out of puff when you need it most.
in most cases people don't race other cars on the roads but simply buy a fast car to go for spirited drives down their fave a/b roads. under these conditions the lack of torque is never an issue as you're up on the cam most of the time and when in vtec the civic is as fast as any other hot hatch out there. it just delivers it's power in a more progressive way.
so i reckon the new type r will be pretty decent. a shame honda couldn't match the jdm for power but on uk roads it ain't going to make a lot of difference and am sure the postives will outweigh the failure to add more power.
03 February 2007, 03:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Autocar
This car lacks the poise and throttle adjustability that its forebear exhibited when driven quickly, and its body control at speed becomes slightly ragged over bumpier surfaces. It serves up a driving experience you value chiefly for the engine’s character; this car has little else, other than perhaps its bold interior and exterior styling, that'll really delight the enthusiast. And that's the real shame.
Originally Posted by Autocar
You'll have fun staying at the top end of the rev range, admittedly; the Type-R's fascia-mounted gearshift is as great as ever. You just won't be having particularly fast fun.
Originally Posted by Autocar
The steering – always a weak point before – is much improved; it's now got a consistent action from lock-to-lock, but lacks feel. But – and here's the bit Swindonian door-handlers won't want to read – if you're a keen driver, you will notice the switch to a torsion beam rear-end
Not exactly a rave review from Autocar....
03 February 2007, 12:09 PM
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03 February 2007, 07:52 PM
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Well for what it is worth I have driven the new (FN2) CTR. Back to back with my own moddified EP3. To put it in perspective my EP I have had since new (84k miles 02 plate). It is pushing 179 flbs and 231 BHP. (N/A, it was Supercharged but I decided to put her back to being all motor). My CTR is set up for fast road/track use. It is also lighter than the new CTR. I have lighter race wheels (Buddy Club) shod with Parada Spec 2's, Carbon Bonnet, buckets with light rails etc etc, ok may only add up to a few kgs but it all helps. There are a host of other mods as well that I have done over the past 4 years to make the car just how I like it. I know how it handles and am comfortable with it on the limit.
However stepping into the new car (proper seats at last!) and tearing up the hillclimb at Goodwood I was immediately impressed. Right away the engine reved smoothly and though the power output is to all intense and purposes the same, the torque band is wider and whatever the paper stats say, the car is everybit as flexible as mine, and just as quick. The car is just as stable as mine (and MUCH more so than the stock EP3) under heavy braking (brakes are just as good with great feel). Turn in is better with much improved steering feedback, again waaaay better (not hard perhaps) than the EP. The car does NOT feel any heaver, infact I would go as far as to say it is more nimble (well that is the way it feels).
I was a bit disappointed when I found out the gear stick was back on the floor, but due to the build it is still a handspan away from the steering wheel, the same as my EP. The gearshift is even more precise and more like the S2000's. And that I the best shift of any car I have driven.
Out on the road driving the new car for the day I found the ride firm, but still complient, it did have a little more roll at lower speeds than my CTR (around the same as a stock set up EP). However when pushing on it settled down really well. Even turning off the tability control, though the car understeered a tad more, the excellent throttle response (despite being fly by wire throttle there was no lag at all) allowed you to control this, and with the more stable back end that telegraphed more (less twichy than the EP) this was not an issue.
I have also driven a few of the cars main rivals the VXR, Golf GTI and Focus ST. The VXR whilst it may win a traffic light grand prix, dynamicaly the chassis and response/driver involvement is not in the same class. The Focus is very good, but TBH I did not find it any better, I found the response of the CTR (and the seats
) more satisfying. The Golf was a lot closer. I just found it rolled a little more in the corners and felt taller. The Civic was also a fair bit quicker.
All In all I went with a fairly open mind, and despite being fond of my Civic, I was very impressed with the new car. I hate to say it but it was better in every way than the EP. Easier to live with, yet even more focused not less. So all those who think Honda is dilluting the 'R' ethos. I suggest you drive one rather than just looking at the figures on paper.
The one car I thing performance wise that may give the new CTR a run for its money will be the new Clio Cup. Though if I was handing over my own hard earned cash It would allways choose the Honda just for the build quality.
However stepping into the new car (proper seats at last!) and tearing up the hillclimb at Goodwood I was immediately impressed. Right away the engine reved smoothly and though the power output is to all intense and purposes the same, the torque band is wider and whatever the paper stats say, the car is everybit as flexible as mine, and just as quick. The car is just as stable as mine (and MUCH more so than the stock EP3) under heavy braking (brakes are just as good with great feel). Turn in is better with much improved steering feedback, again waaaay better (not hard perhaps) than the EP. The car does NOT feel any heaver, infact I would go as far as to say it is more nimble (well that is the way it feels).
I was a bit disappointed when I found out the gear stick was back on the floor, but due to the build it is still a handspan away from the steering wheel, the same as my EP
. The gearshift is even more precise and more like the S2000's. And that I the best shift of any car I have driven.Out on the road driving the new car for the day I found the ride firm, but still complient, it did have a little more roll at lower speeds than my CTR (around the same as a stock set up EP). However when pushing on it settled down really well. Even turning off the tability control, though the car understeered a tad more, the excellent throttle response (despite being fly by wire throttle there was no lag at all) allowed you to control this, and with the more stable back end that telegraphed more (less twichy than the EP) this was not an issue.
I have also driven a few of the cars main rivals the VXR, Golf GTI and Focus ST. The VXR whilst it may win a traffic light grand prix, dynamicaly the chassis and response/driver involvement is not in the same class. The Focus is very good, but TBH I did not find it any better, I found the response of the CTR (and the seats
) more satisfying. The Golf was a lot closer. I just found it rolled a little more in the corners and felt taller. The Civic was also a fair bit quicker.All In all I went with a fairly open mind, and despite being fond of my Civic, I was very impressed with the new car. I hate to say it but it was better in every way than the EP. Easier to live with, yet even more focused not less. So all those who think Honda is dilluting the 'R' ethos. I suggest you drive one rather than just looking at the figures on paper.
The one car I thing performance wise that may give the new CTR a run for its money will be the new Clio Cup. Though if I was handing over my own hard earned cash It would allways choose the Honda just for the build quality
.
03 February 2007, 08:12 PM
#76
Just had this months Evo magazine, pitting the new CTR against the Megane R26, Astra VXR, Focus ST, Leon FR and Golf GTI. One of them blitzes the rest around their test track!
03 February 2007, 09:35 PM
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3.5 stars:
Civic Type R (New one with 150bhp/ton)
4 Stars:
Leon FR (143bhp/ton)
Astra VXR (179Bhp/ton) joint with Focus ST (154Bhp/ton)
5 Stars:
Golf GTI (143bhp/ton)
Megane R26 (165Bhp/ton)
Track times (slowest to fastest around the track)
Focus (1.42.15)
Civic (1.41.45)
Golf (1.41.00)
Leon (1.40.00)
Astra (1.38.25)
Megane (1.36.05)
Chris
04 February 2007, 04:32 PM
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The new Civic should have had much more power and a good diff......then it would be worth it, even I might consider one!
I dissed it further up in the posts, but because I prefer the old one!
I dissed it further up in the posts, but because I prefer the old one!
04 February 2007, 07:37 PM
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I haven't seen the Evo review yet, but Autocar didn't give the new CTR their best words either.
I know figures are not the most important, and super6four proves that (nice review by the way) but Autocar did actually time it themselves, and well the figures show that it is indeed slower than the older model.
At a heavier 1338kg and 198bhp ("only" 150bhp per ton by todays much higher standards) it did:
0-60 in 7.4secs
0-100 in 18.4secs.
Not exactly quick.
I know figures are not the most important, and super6four proves that (nice review by the way) but Autocar did actually time it themselves, and well the figures show that it is indeed slower than the older model.
At a heavier 1338kg and 198bhp ("only" 150bhp per ton by todays much higher standards) it did:
0-60 in 7.4secs
0-100 in 18.4secs.
Not exactly quick.
04 February 2007, 07:47 PM
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As people have said though, this is only the first release, I'm sure they'll go down the Renault route and release some more varients (isn't already confirmed that there is a lighter version with less toys and a more luxurious one coming?).
04 February 2007, 08:12 PM
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I haven't seen the Evo review yet, but Autocar didn't give the new CTR their best words either.
I know figures are not the most important, and super6four proves that (nice review by the way) but Autocar did actually time it themselves, and well the figures show that it is indeed slower than the older model.
At a heavier 1338kg and 198bhp ("only" 150bhp per ton by todays much higher standards) it did:
0-60 in 7.4secs
0-100 in 18.4secs.
Not exactly quick.
I know figures are not the most important, and super6four proves that (nice review by the way) but Autocar did actually time it themselves, and well the figures show that it is indeed slower than the older model.
At a heavier 1338kg and 198bhp ("only" 150bhp per ton by todays much higher standards) it did:
0-60 in 7.4secs
0-100 in 18.4secs.
Not exactly quick.
04 February 2007, 08:20 PM
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Not read the test myself, but heres a bit of blatent cut/pasting from cupranet:
3.5 stars:
Civic Type R (New one with 150bhp/ton)
4 Stars:
Leon FR (143bhp/ton)
Astra VXR (179Bhp/ton) joint with Focus ST (154Bhp/ton)
5 Stars:
Golf GTI (143bhp/ton)
Megane R26 (165Bhp/ton)
Track times (slowest to fastest around the track)
Focus (1.42.15)
Civic (1.41.45)
Golf (1.41.00)
Leon (1.40.00)
Astra (1.38.25)
Megane (1.36.05)
Chris
3.5 stars:
Civic Type R (New one with 150bhp/ton)
4 Stars:
Leon FR (143bhp/ton)
Astra VXR (179Bhp/ton) joint with Focus ST (154Bhp/ton)
5 Stars:
Golf GTI (143bhp/ton)
Megane R26 (165Bhp/ton)
Track times (slowest to fastest around the track)
Focus (1.42.15)
Civic (1.41.45)
Golf (1.41.00)
Leon (1.40.00)
Astra (1.38.25)
Megane (1.36.05)
Chris
Each of these cars is going to appeal to a different kind of person. Someone looking at the Golf won't go near the Megane etc etc. Just looking at this list shows what a futile effort it is to argue which is the best hot hatch. It is good to have such a wide choice though.
04 February 2007, 09:13 PM
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I'm surprised the Focus ST was the slowest, wasn't it faster by 10 seconds or something than the Focus RS around the 'ring ?
I don't like the look of the Megane at all but fairplay to Renault if they have the fastest motor. Probably go for the Golf/Astra out of that lot if it was me....
I don't like the look of the Megane at all but fairplay to Renault if they have the fastest motor. Probably go for the Golf/Astra out of that lot if it was me....
04 February 2007, 09:19 PM
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I'm surprised the Focus ST was the slowest, wasn't it faster by 10 seconds or something than the Focus RS around the 'ring ?
I don't like the look of the Megane at all but fairplay to Renault if they have the fastest motor. Probably go for the Golf/Astra out of that lot if it was me....
I don't like the look of the Megane at all but fairplay to Renault if they have the fastest motor. Probably go for the Golf/Astra out of that lot if it was me....
05 February 2007, 09:58 AM
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05 February 2007, 10:19 AM
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In the real world, does it really matter that one car is a few seconds quicker than another?? Since building my 205, i've never even had anyone try it on so it doesn't matter how quick it is in a vs match
Having owned our Civic 2.2 for 5 days now, and driving it this weekend, I have to say they are very impressive to live with and the quality feel is great
Having owned our Civic 2.2 for 5 days now, and driving it this weekend, I have to say they are very impressive to live with and the quality feel is great
05 February 2007, 12:45 PM
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http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/art...571383,00.html
"... When I drove the Type R last week, instead of reminding me how much less fun it was to drive than its predecessor, I found myself thinking how much more fun it was than most other cars that could call themselves rivals. For a start, it doesn’t matter if your gaze falls on the Golf GTi, Focus ST, Astra VXR, Mazda3 MPS or Volvo C30 T5, all the Honda’s closest rivals use turbocharged engines. ..."
"It handles better not only than any rival save the Focus and very expensive Volvo, but also the old Type R ..."
"... When I drove the Type R last week, instead of reminding me how much less fun it was to drive than its predecessor, I found myself thinking how much more fun it was than most other cars that could call themselves rivals. For a start, it doesn’t matter if your gaze falls on the Golf GTi, Focus ST, Astra VXR, Mazda3 MPS or Volvo C30 T5, all the Honda’s closest rivals use turbocharged engines. ..."
"It handles better not only than any rival save the Focus and very expensive Volvo, but also the old Type R ..."
05 February 2007, 04:43 PM
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Wrong, just read two drives from two distinct mags, both saying how it was crappier than the last, and more expensive!
They state 6.6 0-62, it does 7.5! Anything goes faster than that, hell my untuned Golf IV TDi !50 PS used to do 7.4!!
Get over it, it is another flop!
They state 6.6 0-62, it does 7.5! Anything goes faster than that, hell my untuned Golf IV TDi !50 PS used to do 7.4!!
Get over it, it is another flop!
05 February 2007, 06:39 PM
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Just got latest copy of EVO and the civic Type R come last in the group test! Megane R26 declared pisk of the bunch with Golf gti next. Focus st and Astra VXR next-they couldnt serperate them. Civic last-they said it falls along wat short of the mark-perculiar steering being one negative.