New Civic Type R is hot hatch King.
06 February 2007, 01:30 PM
#92
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Eh? I can't be bothered to look up the exact figures, but a Mini Cooper S Works has something like 210-220bhp. As with all German cars it is a bit lardy. In order to break 200bhp/tonne it would need to weigh no more than 1100kg. No chance. Close maybe, but there is no way it weighs a quarter of a tonne less than the Civic.
Last edited by Blueblaster; 06 February 2007 at 01:31 PM. Reason: .
06 February 2007, 02:31 PM
#93
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It all depends what you want from a car.
If I was to buy a hot hatch new I would want something comfy, nice interior and quick enough to make me smile within the speed limit, as well as being practical and reliable/cheap to run.
I would buy a Focus ST as I love the exterior, but the interior is bland. I also find most other interiors bland, except for the Civic which has an amazing interior, so I myself would buy the Type R out of all the hatches, as it will do everything I need from a hot hatch, regardless of whether someone in an ugly Megane could beat me anywhere with it by the odd second.
I have a light FWD car with 220bhp/tonne and it isn't always that much fun as it has too much power. Maximum power doesnt equal max fun.
If I was to buy a hot hatch new I would want something comfy, nice interior and quick enough to make me smile within the speed limit, as well as being practical and reliable/cheap to run.
I would buy a Focus ST as I love the exterior, but the interior is bland. I also find most other interiors bland, except for the Civic which has an amazing interior, so I myself would buy the Type R out of all the hatches, as it will do everything I need from a hot hatch, regardless of whether someone in an ugly Megane could beat me anywhere with it by the odd second.
I have a light FWD car with 220bhp/tonne and it isn't always that much fun as it has too much power. Maximum power doesnt equal max fun.
06 February 2007, 02:49 PM
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It all depends what you want from a car.
If I was to buy a hot hatch new I would want something comfy, nice interior and quick enough to make me smile within the speed limit, as well as being practical and reliable/cheap to run.
I would buy a Focus ST as I love the exterior, but the interior is bland. I also find most other interiors bland, except for the Civic which has an amazing interior, so I myself would buy the Type R out of all the hatches, as it will do everything I need from a hot hatch, regardless of whether someone in an ugly Megane could beat me anywhere with it by the odd second.
I have a light FWD car with 220bhp/tonne and it isn't always that much fun as it has too much power. Maximum power doesnt equal max fun.
If I was to buy a hot hatch new I would want something comfy, nice interior and quick enough to make me smile within the speed limit, as well as being practical and reliable/cheap to run.
I would buy a Focus ST as I love the exterior, but the interior is bland. I also find most other interiors bland, except for the Civic which has an amazing interior, so I myself would buy the Type R out of all the hatches, as it will do everything I need from a hot hatch, regardless of whether someone in an ugly Megane could beat me anywhere with it by the odd second.
I have a light FWD car with 220bhp/tonne and it isn't always that much fun as it has too much power. Maximum power doesnt equal max fun.
Quite true but the civic is virtually the same weight as the others, and way down on power, And i definately know slow does not mean fun.
06 February 2007, 02:54 PM
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It all depends what you want from a car.
If I was to buy a hot hatch new I would want something comfy, nice interior and quick enough to make me smile within the speed limit, as well as being practical and reliable/cheap to run.
I would buy a Focus ST as I love the exterior, but the interior is bland. I also find most other interiors bland, except for the Civic which has an amazing interior, so I myself would buy the Type R out of all the hatches, as it will do everything I need from a hot hatch, regardless of whether someone in an ugly Megane could beat me anywhere with it by the odd second.
I have a light FWD car with 220bhp/tonne and it isn't always that much fun as it has too much power. Maximum power doesnt equal max fun.
If I was to buy a hot hatch new I would want something comfy, nice interior and quick enough to make me smile within the speed limit, as well as being practical and reliable/cheap to run.
I would buy a Focus ST as I love the exterior, but the interior is bland. I also find most other interiors bland, except for the Civic which has an amazing interior, so I myself would buy the Type R out of all the hatches, as it will do everything I need from a hot hatch, regardless of whether someone in an ugly Megane could beat me anywhere with it by the odd second.
I have a light FWD car with 220bhp/tonne and it isn't always that much fun as it has too much power. Maximum power doesnt equal max fun.
Ah yes, but down the pub, or on an internet forum power is everything!
LOL
When you consider that, in reality, for 99.9% of the time a diesel golf will get you from A to B as fast as an Enzo, the "power" argument is laughable.
I'd recon a new CTR will be able to meet its maker's performance claims in the dry, puting it on a par with the competition performance wise.
It will, and you could almost guarantee this, be more reliable and will most likely be cheaper to run that the Golf, Astra and Focus.
The Renault will be the fastest, but only when its not sitting in the dealer's workshop being attended to by quite possibly the most incompetent technical department of all the big manufacturers.
For 99.9% of the "decent" driving population, the difference in handling ability will be negligable between them, and it will come down to personal preferences as to what is "best"
Ultimate handling finess - vs - sheer grunt - vs - engineering excellence - vs - interior, etc, etc.
Quite how any true petrolhead/motorsport enthusiast can place lazy turbo torque ahead of an engine that will quite happily spin up to nearly 9,000 rpm with a noise and throttle response to die for is, however, beyond me.
It's worth it just for the drivetrain alone.
06 February 2007, 05:18 PM
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I have owned two vtec civics (vti and CTR) and eventually tried other marques after being a die hard honda fan. I haven't looked back...vtec is all very well but I far prefer low down grunt. 'Lazy' or otherwise it gets the job done without shouting 'look at me I'm trying really hard'
I would never buy a car just for its gearbox, it must have a few more quality features! it was quality for sure, but I struggle to find anything else remarkable about the car. It was dynamically abismal IMO and honda would have had an easy time improving on it, unless they made the suspension from balsa wood...
I had no problems with the older civic and quite a few with the CTR...its all very well making sweeping statements about reliabilty of each marque but my experience totally contradicts the perception.
Clio 182 , 2 years, 40k miles no problems
CTR, 1 year, 18k miles 4 times in dealer....
Focus ST(current) 1 year 15k miles, no problems
The old man's 06 A4 8 months 4 times in dealer!!! wtf
Most people on here will know of the STs strengths/flaws, for whats it worth I am very pleased, and haven't had to fix or repair it daily lol
I would never buy a car just for its gearbox, it must have a few more quality features! it was quality for sure, but I struggle to find anything else remarkable about the car. It was dynamically abismal IMO and honda would have had an easy time improving on it, unless they made the suspension from balsa wood...
I had no problems with the older civic and quite a few with the CTR...its all very well making sweeping statements about reliabilty of each marque but my experience totally contradicts the perception.
Clio 182 , 2 years, 40k miles no problems
CTR, 1 year, 18k miles 4 times in dealer....
Focus ST(current) 1 year 15k miles, no problems
The old man's 06 A4 8 months 4 times in dealer!!! wtf
Most people on here will know of the STs strengths/flaws, for whats it worth I am very pleased, and haven't had to fix or repair it daily lol
06 February 2007, 05:45 PM
#97
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How fast do you want to go?
My 205 was more fun when it had 160 brake than it is now with 200, and probably even better when it had 130 brake from the factory.
06 February 2007, 06:18 PM
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Just one comment on your last statement. Slow can equal fun. The new Pirellis on my Seicento Sporting have transformed the car - it is so much more fun than my STI it is unbelievable. That has a 1.1 litre engine. Ask your dad if he had fun driving when he was a youngster - I bet he did and I bet he had less power than my Fiat.
07 February 2007, 09:50 AM
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I doubt if i ask my dad about going slow he would give me a positive answer. Maybe now, but he is in his 60's. He used to test drive for Triumph, and ford's, stag's, Capris and stuff with big v8's in them to see if the chassis could take power.
Also i am never going to be convinced about the looks of the civic, the perfomance figures speak for themselves (not good), i have never thought about a drivetrain when buying a car, or residuals to be honest. I will test drive one to see if i like the way it drives but feel i will be underwhelmed, and am not sure if this car will be a good seller, cos others will be disappointed as well. imo all in all a poor show from Honda.
Also i am never going to be convinced about the looks of the civic, the perfomance figures speak for themselves (not good), i have never thought about a drivetrain when buying a car, or residuals to be honest. I will test drive one to see if i like the way it drives but feel i will be underwhelmed, and am not sure if this car will be a good seller, cos others will be disappointed as well. imo all in all a poor show from Honda.
08 February 2007, 09:18 AM
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Eh? I can't be bothered to look up the exact figures, but a Mini Cooper S Works has something like 210-220bhp. As with all German cars it is a bit lardy. In order to break 200bhp/tonne it would need to weigh no more than 1100kg. No chance. Close maybe, but there is no way it weighs a quarter of a tonne less than the Civic.
Guess it's been dramatically lightened.
08 February 2007, 09:49 AM
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08 February 2007, 10:35 AM
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I doubt if i ask my dad about going slow he would give me a positive answer. Maybe now, but he is in his 60's. He used to test drive for Triumph, and ford's, stag's, Capris and stuff with big v8's in them to see if the chassis could take power.
Also i am never going to be convinced about the looks of the civic, the perfomance figures speak for themselves (not good), i have never thought about a drivetrain when buying a car, or residuals to be honest. I will test drive one to see if i like the way it drives but feel i will be underwhelmed, and am not sure if this car will be a good seller, cos others will be disappointed as well. imo all in all a poor show from Honda.
Also i am never going to be convinced about the looks of the civic, the perfomance figures speak for themselves (not good), i have never thought about a drivetrain when buying a car, or residuals to be honest. I will test drive one to see if i like the way it drives but feel i will be underwhelmed, and am not sure if this car will be a good seller, cos others will be disappointed as well. imo all in all a poor show from Honda.
As for fun in slow cars, the most fun I had recently was chucking a Hyundai Getz hire car around the Spanish roads, that was the quickest thing in the world
08 February 2007, 10:58 AM
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Had one of those in SW France - Did have some mad moments in it and also had a laugh in a Micra (new shape) S and various other hire cars (must have hired 20+ cars last year).
When I went a bit more upmarket and got a 207 2.0 CC in S France, I actually found it pretty dull.
08 February 2007, 12:41 PM
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Eh? I can't be bothered to look up the exact figures, but a Mini Cooper S Works has something like 210-220bhp. As with all German cars it is a bit lardy. In order to break 200bhp/tonne it would need to weigh no more than 1100kg. No chance. Close maybe, but there is no way it weighs a quarter of a tonne less than the Civic.
08 February 2007, 12:54 PM
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Didn't realise the new Mini was lighter.
Any manufacturer bringing a newer model out that's lighter than the last needs massive applause.
Part of the reason why the Astra appealed - It's been on a diet from mk4 to .
Any manufacturer bringing a newer model out that's lighter than the last needs massive applause.
Part of the reason why the Astra appealed - It's been on a diet from mk4 to .
08 February 2007, 01:32 PM
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Its only 10kg but its a start (hopefully) of a trend. Personally, with the proposed Euro emissions the only way I can see the manufacturers meeting those targets is to stop building salad dodging cars and send them all to Fat Club.
08 February 2007, 02:45 PM
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Im actually going to drive the new CTR on monday down at brands hatch along with all the other competition so we really get an idea of how the competition stacks up. I work for Honda so yes im going to be biased but i think the new CTR is going to be an absolute winner. My sales figures of them for the new 3 months say that.... Currently if you walked into a dealership and asked to buy one you wont get it till July..... Thats as of yesterday...
Its all about opinions really... I personally think the Honda is fantastic, residuals after 3 years are around 60%, reliability = best on the market, price, £17600 is bloody cheap for a hot hatch. Granted its not the most powerful car but i can assure you its handling will certainly make up for its lack of power. Its driving quality on the road from the type s is fantastic... The type s shares the same suspension set up, VSA delay and the steering tweaks as the Type R so you get a rough idea how the car will handle.
Ok the styling may not be for everyone. I personally hated the rear end but now i love it. One for the doubters... take a drive in the new type R... Then compare it to the rest of the competition. 200bhp from an N/A engine remember... couple that with 12500 mile service intervals and a 8800 rev limiter and its not too shabby...
Its all about opinions really... I personally think the Honda is fantastic, residuals after 3 years are around 60%, reliability = best on the market, price, £17600 is bloody cheap for a hot hatch. Granted its not the most powerful car but i can assure you its handling will certainly make up for its lack of power. Its driving quality on the road from the type s is fantastic... The type s shares the same suspension set up, VSA delay and the steering tweaks as the Type R so you get a rough idea how the car will handle.
Ok the styling may not be for everyone. I personally hated the rear end but now i love it. One for the doubters... take a drive in the new type R... Then compare it to the rest of the competition. 200bhp from an N/A engine remember... couple that with 12500 mile service intervals and a 8800 rev limiter and its not too shabby...
08 February 2007, 03:55 PM
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Talking of Evo, I subscribed again last month (stopped for a bit when I decided cars were costing me too much and no longer mattered - Didn't last long!) and still haven't had a copy yet!
08 February 2007, 03:57 PM
#110
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You can read all the magazine articles you want, you need to drive a car for yourself to find out if its a yes or a no.
I take Evo's opinions with a pinch of salt in general.
I take Evo's opinions with a pinch of salt in general.
08 February 2007, 04:04 PM
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Dream - Me too. They have changed their minds completely on several occasions (I had a letter printed on the subject) on what they think of a car.
Take the mk4 R32 (which I had) - Loved it, won all sorts of tests then the end of term report gave it quite a pasting - All because (I exchanged a few emails with the journo) it was basically "old news!"
But I still find it a good read but would never ever form a real opinion (other than raw facts) on anything other than a good test drive.
Take the mk4 R32 (which I had) - Loved it, won all sorts of tests then the end of term report gave it quite a pasting - All because (I exchanged a few emails with the journo) it was basically "old news!"
But I still find it a good read but would never ever form a real opinion (other than raw facts) on anything other than a good test drive.
08 February 2007, 04:09 PM
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Yeah, of course you do. Until the day they print an article supporting you car of choice. As for driving one, why would I want to? I'm just surprised at the reception its got, although the usual defense of it's lack of torque never fails to raise a smile.
08 February 2007, 04:20 PM
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Dream - Me too. They have changed their minds completely on several occasions (I had a letter printed on the subject) on what they think of a car.
Take the mk4 R32 (which I had) - Loved it, won all sorts of tests then the end of term report gave it quite a pasting - All because (I exchanged a few emails with the journo) it was basically "old news!"
But I still find it a good read but would never ever form a real opinion (other than raw facts) on anything other than a good test drive.
Take the mk4 R32 (which I had) - Loved it, won all sorts of tests then the end of term report gave it quite a pasting - All because (I exchanged a few emails with the journo) it was basically "old news!"
But I still find it a good read but would never ever form a real opinion (other than raw facts) on anything other than a good test drive.
08 February 2007, 04:25 PM
#114
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BUT...They are viewing cars very differently to a "normal" driver.
They love Renault Sports yet they fall apart.
They love high revvers and don't like quick diesels, yet that's what most "real World" drivers now favour.
They drive cars to and beyond the limits and spend half an article talking about understeer and oversteer - Unless you're on a track you shouldn't be inducing either - If you are, you're driving dangerously.
And of late, as the mag has got more popular and they have got better access to supercars, the "normal" car content has been diluted (although at least they raved about the Panda 100).
So I enjoy it, love the pictures and the writing but I still take it all with a pinch of salt.
08 February 2007, 05:39 PM
#115
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BUT...They are viewing cars very differently to a "normal" driver.
They love Renault Sports yet they fall apart.
They love high revvers and don't like quick diesels, yet that's what most "real World" drivers now favour.
They drive cars to and beyond the limits and spend half an article talking about understeer and oversteer - Unless you're on a track you shouldn't be inducing either - If you are, you're driving dangerously.
They love Renault Sports yet they fall apart.
They love high revvers and don't like quick diesels, yet that's what most "real World" drivers now favour.
They drive cars to and beyond the limits and spend half an article talking about understeer and oversteer - Unless you're on a track you shouldn't be inducing either - If you are, you're driving dangerously.
Oversteer can be perfectly safe on the road provided its practiced in the right environment and lets face it, understeer is primarily a safety function as most drivers automatic reaction is to lift off, thus reducing the effect. Anyway, a large percentage of their readership attend track days so they'll be interested in the handling of the cars being written about.
If you're not sharing their views of what makes a good car, then perhaps you'd be better off reading What Car or similar?
08 February 2007, 06:18 PM
#116
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I know you're trying to score points FlatCap but believe it or not, I can actually drive and have had a lot of post test training so do know what under and oversteer are.
I also appreciate good handling over any other quality.
I'm just realistic and maybe diesels haven't taken over but they are still largely ignored by Evo mag.
I guess it's just an escape for now but I believe the mag has gone away from it's roots - I still buy it though, just like I buy mags full of waves in Indo/South Africa, etc - I rarely surf such waves but I still like to see them.
I think your track day assumption is totally wrong.
Perhaps you think most Loaded readers are multi millionaire playboys in perfect shape and loved by all woman too?!
I also appreciate good handling over any other quality.
I'm just realistic and maybe diesels haven't taken over but they are still largely ignored by Evo mag.
I guess it's just an escape for now but I believe the mag has gone away from it's roots - I still buy it though, just like I buy mags full of waves in Indo/South Africa, etc - I rarely surf such waves but I still like to see them.
I think your track day assumption is totally wrong.
Perhaps you think most Loaded readers are multi millionaire playboys in perfect shape and loved by all woman too?!
08 February 2007, 06:28 PM
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[QUOTE=VXRBOY;6616879][QUOTE=Fabioso;6616320]
I don't usually get involved in the arguments but VXR your statement is...well OTT. Dreamweaver was describing how he saw the VXR and stated it was his opinion and suddenly you have to resort to calling him a Nescafe Coffee hand shaker.
Your response is the one thats offensive and personal when all Dreamweaver was doing was just describing his opinion about a car.
When you are selling your house do you start calling the potential buyers names when they say they are not keen on the garden layout ?
I sort of understand the long and squashed observation even though I actually like the Astra VXR alot and recently visited a Vauxhall Dealer to see one in the flesh.
I think what the guys here are trying to say is that for them the Honda Civic Type-R is the better car because its more versatile and well thought out. Also the residuals are going to be good if the previous model is anything to go by. Fords and Vauxhalls always seem to be in free fall depreciation especially for the first 2 years. You are focusing purely on the performance aspects and although relevant as it is after all a "hot hatch". Numbers and bhp figures are not the "be all and end all" for alot of people which is why they are voicing this opinion.
Various magazines have spoken about the VXR handling and not being able to get the power down in a fwd car. In fact I think it was demonstrated on tv. Why that opinion also voiced by many car journalists makes someone a "Tommy Tanker" is totally beyond me.
I would have thought a "30 year old professional" was above that kind of behaviour or conclusion.
Yes your right i misunderstood what dreamweaver was saying and i apoligise for that. But the residual thing is wrong look at the prices of old gsi's and type r's. The VXR is a much better car than the old gsi and there are less being made so will hold its own i think.
Once again the torque steer thing comes into to play.
I suggest people have a go at driving a VXR and make their own minds up about that, it is hugely overplayed. The Top Gear test had a pre-production car without the full VXR running gear on it. Also various magazines have also said that when it was first tested it had moves beyond cars like the golf and meganne.
Getting really fed up of you going on about this silly little rep's car mate!!
It's a pile of ****! IT'S A VAUXHALL! It must be a pile of ****!
A nd shut up telling us all about how a FWD car with 300 bhp drives well!
You are talking right out of your **** mate!
I don't usually get involved in the arguments but VXR your statement is...well OTT. Dreamweaver was describing how he saw the VXR and stated it was his opinion and suddenly you have to resort to calling him a Nescafe Coffee hand shaker
. Your response is the one thats offensive and personal when all Dreamweaver was doing was just describing his opinion about a car.
When you are selling your house do you start calling the potential buyers names when they say they are not keen on the garden layout ?
I sort of understand the long and squashed observation even though I actually like the Astra VXR alot and recently visited a Vauxhall Dealer to see one in the flesh.
I think what the guys here are trying to say is that for them the Honda Civic Type-R is the better car because its more versatile and well thought out. Also the residuals are going to be good if the previous model is anything to go by. Fords and Vauxhalls always seem to be in free fall depreciation especially for the first 2 years. You are focusing purely on the performance aspects and although relevant as it is after all a "hot hatch". Numbers and bhp figures are not the "be all and end all" for alot of people which is why they are voicing this opinion.
Various magazines have spoken about the VXR handling and not being able to get the power down in a fwd car. In fact I think it was demonstrated on tv. Why that opinion also voiced by many car journalists makes someone a "Tommy Tanker" is totally beyond me.
I would have thought a "30 year old professional" was above that kind of behaviour or conclusion.
Yes your right i misunderstood what dreamweaver was saying and i apoligise for that. But the residual thing is wrong look at the prices of old gsi's and type r's. The VXR is a much better car than the old gsi and there are less being made so will hold its own i think.
Once again the torque steer thing comes into to play.
I suggest people have a go at driving a VXR and make their own minds up about that, it is hugely overplayed. The Top Gear test had a pre-production car without the full VXR running gear on it. Also various magazines have also said that when it was first tested it had moves beyond cars like the golf and meganne.Getting really fed up of you going on about this silly little rep's car mate!!
It's a pile of ****! IT'S A VAUXHALL! It must be a pile of ****!
A nd shut up telling us all about how a FWD car with 300 bhp drives well!
You are talking right out of your **** mate!
Last edited by D00; 08 February 2007 at 06:30 PM.
08 February 2007, 06:37 PM
#119
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I know you're trying to score points FlatCap but believe it or not, I can actually drive and have had a lot of post test training so do know what under and oversteer are.
I also appreciate good handling over any other quality.
I'm just realistic and maybe diesels haven't taken over but they are still largely ignored by Evo mag.
I guess it's just an escape for now but I believe the mag has gone away from it's roots - I still buy it though, just like I buy mags full of waves in Indo/South Africa, etc - I rarely surf such waves but I still like to see them.
I think your track day assumption is totally wrong.
Perhaps you think most Loaded readers are multi millionaire playboys in perfect shape and loved by all woman too?!
I also appreciate good handling over any other quality.
I'm just realistic and maybe diesels haven't taken over but they are still largely ignored by Evo mag.
I guess it's just an escape for now but I believe the mag has gone away from it's roots - I still buy it though, just like I buy mags full of waves in Indo/South Africa, etc - I rarely surf such waves but I still like to see them.
I think your track day assumption is totally wrong.
Perhaps you think most Loaded readers are multi millionaire playboys in perfect shape and loved by all woman too?!
Despite your assertion that they love high revving cars, you still haven't addressed the point I made earlier about their slating of the Civic, which surely they would have put at the top of their group test if that were the case?
Regarding the track day issue. There are six adverts for trackdays and the letters page is littered with references to cars suitable for this activity, so I stand by my assertion that track days are an important element to the average Evo reader - certainly performance is, anyway.
Your reference to Loaded is baffling.
08 February 2007, 06:42 PM
#120
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No it's not.
You think most/all Evo readers drive something super special and spend a lot of time at trackdays - I doubt this somehow but it's the illusion Evo want to cast just like Loaded try and cast their own image on their readers.
Okay, the reference to high revvers is not entirely right and I've not seen the article yet so cannot comment until I've read it.
But surely you MUST agree that Evo journos live rather a fantasy lifestyle, getting cars that they don't have for long so no worries about reliability and usual "normal" motoring issues?
Oh and just to show I'm not above admitting I'm wrong (I often am), they now have a TDi Seat Leon too as a long termer.
I think the tide is changing with Evo but they will always put "everyday motoring" low down the list - Something even the average 911T driver has to think about.
You think most/all Evo readers drive something super special and spend a lot of time at trackdays - I doubt this somehow but it's the illusion Evo want to cast just like Loaded try and cast their own image on their readers.
Okay, the reference to high revvers is not entirely right and I've not seen the article yet so cannot comment until I've read it.
But surely you MUST agree that Evo journos live rather a fantasy lifestyle, getting cars that they don't have for long so no worries about reliability and usual "normal" motoring issues?
Oh and just to show I'm not above admitting I'm wrong (I often am), they now have a TDi Seat Leon too as a long termer.
I think the tide is changing with Evo but they will always put "everyday motoring" low down the list - Something even the average 911T driver has to think about.