Blueblaster

I admit I have a very soft spot for my old CTR. However, I do not blindly support every car I have owned - look at the amount of negativity I hurl at my old 05 STI!

You ask why the Honda is the best package. I will tell you why. It is the best built, has the best residuals, has the best design (I don't mean the way it looks, but rather the thought that has gone into all the wonderful little extras), it is astonishing value (try and spec a Golf or A3 to the same level), has the best gearbox, the best engine and on average will be the most reliable. I know you love your VXR and it's huge performance. I think you have a great looking car - I very nearly bought one. However, if you disregard performance and look at all the other factors the Civic is a better car. Now, if you want the fastest hatch on the market then the Civic is not for you. If you don't like the look of the Civic it is not for you. If you prefer turbo-whallop to high-revving action then the Civic is not for you. This is all fine. But for someone who wants the most rounded car that will do everything very well then the Civic cannot be beaten.

I think it would be very useful if someone who is anti-Civic could post the reasons why another car is better.

Matteeboy

Yes - I'm a rare SN user that actually drives cars rather than copying and pasting mag articles.
I've also tested every major brand hatch and the Civic was nice but not leagues ahead.

Focus handles best but the interior is average.
Astra has probably the best build/handling mix.
Seat is still cheap inside.
Golf is worse than the mk4 inside but handles MUCH better.
Honda handles quite well, look fresh, tries a bit to hard to look craaaazy inside, has best gearchange.

So no major win for the Honda - After all, one person idea of quality is not anothers. The Astra is now very well made but the dash still looks dodgy IMO.

I'm detecting someone blind to a car's flaws and Honda are a premium brand in YOUR eyes.
Audi are meant to be the same but don't handle, cost way too much and have terrible steering feel -Is that premium in all but image and price?

No.

Blueblaster

Matteeboy,

I think one of the things people forget is the true cost of all these cars. I did 50000 miles in 4 years in my CTR and got £8500 for it plus £4500 discount on my MY05 STI. I only paid £16875 for it in the first place. There is nothing to suggest that the new CTR will not have similarly excellent residuals. Also, I think you must concede that Honda is now viewed as a premium brand and is certainly on a par with VW. When you see how much car you get for your money and how well it holds it's value the Civic really does sell itself.

This is a very difficult subject to discuss because so many of us drive these cars that the arguments always seem to get so personal. My car is fully loaded from ski racks to dual zone climate control and DVD Euro SAT NAV. I paid £19500 for it. No one offers that kind of value and quality - Toyota even delayed the new Cololla because they knew it didn't stand a chance. It is all very well saying one car does this a little bit better and another does something else, but when you look at the whole package the Civic wins.

Matteeboy

Blueblaster - Fair enough. But you'll never convince me to have a torqueless motor again which is why the CDTi is the only Civic in the range that appeals and you said yourself that it's not all that sporty.

I paid under £16k (admittedly got a massive discount after an award winning bit of negotiation) for a 150bhp CTDI that's loaded with goodies from auto lights to half leather seats, brake disk upgrades to lowered suspension and (a first for Vauxhall) a proper high quality dash (not a squeak in 28k miles).

I had a good 30 miles country dash in it today - It can be driven very very hard with total confidence - No backing off because the chassis feels a bit wooden (hello Seat), no taking bends wide because the steering is lifeless (Hello Honda and Audi).

I assume the car will be worth about 5p when we go to sell it but I'm just not worried. We'll just get something else again.

///\oo/\\\

My take


Focus handles best but the interior is average. - Its actually ok, but looks like a sea of plastic.

Astra has probably the best build/handling mix - Vauxhall are getting there, bit not quite there yet. In your own comment on another thread you've criticised the astra dash. The A pillar to wing/bonnet join is just tatty, for example.

Seat is still cheap inside - but no worse than VW really

Golf is worse than the mk4 inside but handles MUCH better. - Thank God someone agrees - MK5 Golf's interiors are not good.

Honda handles quite well, look fresh, tries a bit to hard to look craaaazy
inside, has best gearchange. - And is guaranteed to be the most reliable of the lot. Very clever interior, but it may date quite quickly.

I'd have a Type R for the drivetrain alone. Who cares if the VXR is faster, Vauxhall/VW and all have yet to master the art of a decent gear linkage.

Dream Weaver

It depends 100% on what you want the car for. I'm an old fart, I don't care about outright performance or handling, I want the one with the nicest most epic interior/gadgets/vfm

That would be the same if I bought a Type R or a diesel. Type R would just add some extra performance/handling.

You obviously look for handling over anything else.

On my recent rounds of the garages it went more like this:

Focus - Too small in 5 door guise, steering wheel on my knees, interior OK, ST drove well though.
Astra - Hate them, dashboard still vertical
Seat - Lovely exterior, but too plain inside, looks like they have no controls anywhere, A pillars too low.
Golf - Poo, noisy engine, plain awful interior, no rear legroom, high price
Audi A3 - Nice, but too pricey over the Golf, still not much character inside, small boot
BMW 1 - Nice inside, looks like a black cab outside, no room through rear doors, no boot
Honda - Superb, acres of room, smart inside, loads of nice touches. Not the best looking rear end or rear visibility but i'll cope with that. The interior did it though.

Dream Weaver

PS, I never mentioned the bit about premium brand, though I do consider any of the big Jap makers to have very reliable cars, having owned a few of them.

Most brands are reliable now, even Skoda, so it comes down to personality of the vehicles in question.

The only brand I am blind to is Pug of course, up until about 1999 anyway

Matteeboy

A reasoned and sensible discussion on cars.

A rare thing these days!

Fabioso

No clear leader in the hot hatch stakes........do manufacturers get together and decide which "thing" their particular car is going to be good at ?

Astra VXR - Straight line oooomph
Focus ST - Corners
Civic Type-R - Gear Change/Engine on full chat

that way they all shift some cos the bits each is good at appeals to different folks

ITS A CONSPIRACY!!

2.2 Civic

not posted here for a looong time but thought i'd attempt a reasoned (read biased) argument

i owned a 2.2 i-ctdi civic for 12 months and it was about 95% perfect. the only real downsides during my ownership were the door handles and flimsy handbrake handle (which have since been improved). other niggles were the thick a pillars and slightly reduced rear visibility but you get used to this as the wing mirrors are so good it really doesn't cause many problems.

on the plus side the civic is the best designed hatch on the market bar none. a big claim but who else can manage a massive 475 litres of boot and class leading rear passenger space/design in a car that has the same dimensions as the golf, astra, focus, a3 etc, etc - who all have around 350 litres and less rear legroom. boring as it may be i really appreciated the thought put into the car as the glove box is huge, the boot tray/compartment is superb and it's easy stashing the laptop under the rear seats (out of view) instead of in the boot when just nipping into a shop for a pint of milk.

having looked at the opposition prior to buying the civic i found it offered the best driving position too as all the others are far too high and upright by comparison. good as the focus is i'm not a big fan of gear sticks that are located next to the seatbelt clip and prefer one that's closer to the steering wheel. ergonomically it's spot too on as all major controls are easy to reach (and use) so there is minimal time spent with eyes off the road.

as for the drivetrain the 2.2 diesel is arguably the best on the market being incredibly refined, silky smooth, powerful and cheap to run. probably the first ever 2.2 with 138bhp to cost £110 a year in road tax so it is possible to have it all!!

so in short i miss mine (had to sell it to buy two cars) and having owned an ep3 can imagine the new type r will be a stonking all round package.

dream weaver, i hope you enjoy the car as you've made a cracking purchase.

Blueblaster

What a nice man

MooseRacer

I've often thought along similar lines:

A Ford chassis, with Astra power from a CTR drivetrain - together with the "rightness" of a proper french hot-hatch......is it too much to ask?

Dream Weaver

Cheers

That is pretty much what I found during the test drive, it felt like being in a living room, rather than a poxy "sit up and beg" interior

Don't forget the chilled glovebox either

Didn't realise it offers cheap tax as well!!

VXRBOY

Ithink some people are missing the point of why people buy hot hatches, Bigger boot space, cabin like a living room,cheap road tax, rear leg room, ski racks, dvd, are you all kidding. I am sure that most people buy a hot hatch because of the way its looks and goes. Never once buying a car i have thought of ooooh thats a good gearbox, soory i buy cars for what they do. Bought the dc2 for fun and hardcore experience, bought the scoobs for the sound and 4wd, bought the vxr for performnace and looks, Oh and it also has a chilled glovebox, (which really swung it for me)
I am not saying that the VXR is the best car in the world, just dont but into the whole Civic typre r jack of all trades master of none. Looks too poo and none of the other things would make me buy it.

///\oo/\\\

Matt,

The torqueless issue has been addressed to death on this board for some time and has shown up a lack of understanding by many on the whole concept.

Of course a n/a petrol engine is likely to have less torque than a turbo diesel of similar capacity.

But that applies to any n/a engine, not just those from Honda.

The biggest point most people fail to grasp is that torque at flywheel is one thing (and what all the stats show) but torque at the wheels is also dependent upon gearing.

All else being equal (engine/torque/revs/drivetrain losses) the car with lower overall gearing will develop more torque at the wheels in a given gear than a with higher gearing.

That is a mechanical fact.

I agree that torque is not a Vtec strongpoint compared to its turbo'd rivals, but the figures should not be interpreted alone and without taking into account the comparative gear and final drive ratios.

And you may have got yur Astra for a "steal", but you won't be laughing come resale time.

Matteeboy

Look mate, I seriously considered a CTR and test drove it properly.

Unless you thrash the engine half to death, not a lot happens.
Maybe good for some but as I spend my time NOT on a race track, it's makes day to day driving hard work.

And if you buy a car for it's resale value, you are missing the point entirely. I have had plenty of cars that are meant to have very strong residuals and they haven't so I've grown out of panicking about them now.

If residuals are critical, buy a Porsche, if not then try and actually enjoy a car otherwise every mile you drive is another few quid off the resale value.

A CTR has about 140lbs/ft of torque - Whether that's geared through a London Bus gearbox or an F1 car version, that is absolutely naff all.

Dream Weaver

That depends on your age, you're probably early-mid 20's from your posting style.

I'm 10 years plus that, so for me, these days, a "hot hatch" would be something that has all the toys, but goes quicker than the "normal" version.

I have a hardcore hatch and it can be a pain to use when not on a track/meet. As I get older I look forward to the comfort more than the stripped out/hardcore racer look, but I may still want the power/handling.

VXRBOY

I'm actually a professional 30 year old, not really a boy racer, but just want a hot hatch to actually be one. Would not really say the VXR was a stripped out hard core hatch, had a itr that was not so easy to live with. I just think the other hatches including the vxr are hot hatches with all the kit, still better than the ctr

///\oo/\\\

You bought a diesel estate. I'd suggest thats a fairly different target audience than a CTR.

Did you drive the new CTR? Didn't think anyone had except for journalists.

My DC2 had, what, 138 lbs/ft of torque at the flywheel IIRC In two years of ownership I never found it gutless or short of torque. Pickup from low revs was absolutely fine. 138 may have been "naff all" but it was never an issue.

Might have not been numerically high, but a decent enough area under the curve - if you understand?

The CTRs i've driven were the same.

142 lbs/ft is decent enough for a N/A 2 litre. A Ford mondeo 2.0L has 140 lbs/ft

Like I said, you don't quite understand it

Edit to add

If I wanted a "hot hatch", a CTR would be at the top of the list to try.

If I wanted a lazy, torquey relaxed turbo diesel for the daily commute (which I currently do, and own) I wouldn't even consider it. Chalk and cheese.

There is no such thing as a car for all uses, they are all too compromised.

Blueblaster

I have just read the Autocar road test and, just to show I don't blindly praise Hondas, I will admit that I am a little disappointed. It is a lot slower than the old one and is not as good value. However, I am still to be convinced that there is a better hot hatch package than the CTR.

VXRBOY, hot hatches have evolved. They are now bigger, more comfortable all-rounders than anything that existed in the 80s and early 90s. You may not want to have all the gadgets, but clearly all the car manufacturer's market research says most other people think otherwise. Why else would they build the cars that they do? People need a car that will do everything. It needs to sit in a 10 mile traffic jam in the middle of summer and keep you comfortable. It needs to navigate you through an unknown city centre. It needs to be safe. It needs to be a million other things, including, in my case, capable of carrying us and all our ski gear to the Alps every year. You were only ever going to buy one car and that was the fastest hot hatch on the market.

I think the first paragraph of this thread shows that I can be persuaded to change my mind, so how about this. Somebody show me a better all-rounder. If you want the fastest hot hatch then I can't argue, but show me a better package. And when you do this I am going to need the price, specification and residual value. These are the key factors of an all-rounder. If someone can do it then I'll hold my hands up and admit defeat. Bet no one can. And I bet no one would even get close if we looked at the diesel.

Matteeboy

You can't help restorting to patronisation can you?

If I wanted another hot hatch, I'd go back to the R32 but get the mk5 - I NEED torque having had plenty of revvy top end only cars.

And no, I have not driven the new one but it's the same engine (in a heavier car) so will hardly be all that different.

Now you stick to your chavvy revvy motors, I'll stick to mine which is about to kick out 200bhp and over 300lbs/ft.

///\oo/\\\

I don't have a chavvy revvy motor

You are such a self promoting snob Matt

ps - It would only be "patronisation" if you understood the concept.

VXRBOY

This all round package idea still has me stumped. You want a diesel for the same price and speed and looks with equipment and that will hold its value the 888 astra is still better than the ctr. All the modern hatches have all similar price and equipment, all will be worth around the same in three years, look at autotrader and the equivalent older models. All of them look better than the new ctr, and most are faster to boot. I would say the best all rounder would be the focus st and thats coming from a VXR owner, not being blinkered and trying to take other's opinion's on board, still cant get it.

Blueblaster

The thing is mate that they do not have a similar price, spec and residuals. That is why the Civic (my diesel EX in particular) is such a good car. The Germans are thousands of pounds more expensive with the same residuals, the French can't build a decent car and the Vauxhall and Ford (although excellent cars) don't have the residuals and, without sounding snobby, are a lower class of brand and therefore difficult to compare directly. When you actually look hard at the total spec of the Civic you wonder how Honda can offer so much for so little. Looks are subjective - I really like it, if only because it is different.

ninjaguppy

I quite like the new ctr think i may buy one or maybe a clio 197. Maybe because its my money ill buy a car that I enjoy and I want. Slagging off others cars smacks of petty childishness. You have one car so all others are rubbish I mean its a bit single minded? FFS this site gets worse it used to be all against the subaru now you all hate everything

Dream Weaver

Better in what way? Because they have a few BHP more, that you can't get down on the tarmac anyway, or better in some other way that I don't understand? They look good, are inexpensive, have enough power to enjoy and should be reliable. VXR will be similar, but in no way "better".

To me the VXR looks like a long squashed chavtastic piece of plastic, I wouldn't buy one if they were the cheapest around. That is all IMO though, it would be crap if we all liked the same thing!!

It doesn't really matter what the peak torque figure is, it depends on the spread and how it all works together with the whole car.

My 205 "only has" 155 ft/lbs at 5,500 and drives just like a Vtec, but it would absolutely annihilate your Astra by such a massive margin that you'd be wondering whether you actually had the engine switched on.

High torque values are good, but only found in turbo's or TD's. Diesels are great but while you change gear in your Astra at 4500rpm, I hit the cams and keep going up to 8500 rpm if necessary.

VXRBOY

[QUOTE=Dream Weaver;6613869]Better in what way? Because they have a few BHP more, that you can't get down on the tarmac anyway, or better in some other way that I don't understand? They look good, are inexpensive, have enough power to enjoy and should be reliable. VXR will be similar, but in no way "better".

To me the VXR looks like a long squashed chavtastic piece of plastic, I wouldn't buy one if they were the cheapest around. That is all IMO though, it would be crap if we all liked the same thing!! QUOTE)

Now now, tryingto have a debate here and you go and get all offensive, you ******. Who says you cant get the power down? you can and i'm running 300bhp and still doing it. All i was saying was they are all the same, thanks for saying the same, but then you seem to go ff on one. Long and squashed have you ever even seen one.

Blueblaster

You know, I know and everyone else knows that the French don't have a word for build quality or reliability. How many old French cars do you see on the road that don't look like they are held together with sticky tape? Hardly any, and we know the reason why. They know how to make a good looking car, a cheap car, a good handling car, but a well built car is something totally alien to them.

Right, off to work. More wise words from me tomorrow.

Dream Weaver

No need for name calling, I'm not being offensive, I'm just not that keen on the looks of the Astra that's all, nothing against you or any other VXR owners.

You should realise when a model of car isn't liked by everyone, its not aimed at you as a person

I could get shirty at Blueblasters French comments as my French clutter isn't held together wth sticky tape, but I won't, as it's a car and he probably right in the main

Matteeboy

Dream Weaver - Of course your 205 would utterly annihilate my Astra - It's bloody powerful and weighs about 4 grams!

Anyway, the Astra isn't currently in the performance league of a CTR/VXR/197, etc which is why I'm getting a magic tuning box to put it back in that league.

I'm not keen on the power delivey of a CTR but I USED to like it - I've just changed okay? Maybe it's called growing up? Torque is as if not more important than bhp to me.

Clio Sport are good.
CTRs are good.
Astra top end diesels and VXRs are good.

NONE of our cars are poor - Reserve that for boggo Kias and the like.

This discussion was completely sensible but as usual a few have got all over defensive and ruined it.

Sad.