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Floyd’s ‘economy’ Stage III

Old 15 August 2005, 09:10 PM
  #271  
Floyd
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Thumbs up The Ring!!!

What a trip

I have returned in one piece. The car performed perfectly, it didn't use any oil, it didn't miss a beat and everything is good

The power enabled me to match 600cc bikes, which is fun and when it's dry I can leave them in the twisties

The first day was hot and the inlet temps didn't go above 40C on track. It seams I can stop monitoring the temps in the inlet so closely now. The STi7/8 TMIC really is very good. There are some corners where 4th is too long and too short lived as you need to change down again, which means that 3rd is held for a long time, often bouncing off the rev limiter... I had a few flashes on the knock link but it is still on max sensitivity - I'm not that concerned.

Oil temps ranged from 95C to 110C on the hottest part of the day. This was with the under tray removed. The gauge hasn't been calibrated so it's only an indication but it seems stable enough. Oil pressure was fine.

The power never felt soft, lap after lap and it was always eager to please and punch the car out of corners. The trip to the Ring was hours of 100mph (plus the odd play) and the engine didn't bat an eyelid.

The first day was a re learning experience for me after a break of 2 years. I had to play with the tyre pressures and AST settings to get the right feel. It is hard to build confidence whilst thinking about the engine, gauges, the corners, the passengers, the traffic etc. So although the AST was an advance on the OE set up from the last trip it still wasn't quite right. A trip in Paul's (Pavlo) car confirmed that it could be better. His car was a surprise with his new coil overs performing remarkably well. The AST in comparison had plenty of grip in the bends but didn't feel as well tied down. There are differences between Paul's Type R and my UK of course, plus he had different geom. wider, lower profile rubber but his car felt really sorted.

When the track dried on the second day I needn't have worried that I'd made a bad choice. After I'd sorted the tyre pressures and upped the damping, re learnt the track, the handling was magic. I could really start having fun and I was getting huge confidence in the chassis. The high profile Toyo rubber at 205 on 16's isn't the best but still showed similar grip to the Felly set up I'd experienced and raved about before. Most corners could be dealt with minimal squeal - none of the screech and sliding that I'm used to Wet laps were a different matter though and the Toyo's were hopeless, plus I **** myself at the sight of rain anyway

I slotted some EBC Ceramic red's in the AP's and I was a little worried about pad deposit. They didn't even show a hint so I conclude that the bed in surface does the trick. They squeal when bedding in but they seem to have quietened down now. In action on the Ring they performed well and I didn't fell under braked. No fade either. The only caveat is that they need a couple of prods to get them warm, especially after a hot lap where they can feel a little soft in the first couple of corners. On the way home there was torrential rain so the brake cooling was exceptional and this meant I had low bite and general softness - this is the exception I believe (the brake cooling ducts being operational didn't help either).

So in conclusion it's all good and I'm very happy. A bit of tidying and a few more tweaks and the car will be finished (stage III), more on those later.

F

Last edited by Floyd; 16 August 2005 at 10:06 PM.
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Old 15 August 2005, 10:43 PM
  #272  
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Wow!
Most interesting about the AST's as I felt the same initially but things are better now.
I have them at 7/12 front and 5/12 rear and may go stiffer damping yet this week ready for Shelsley which is so difficult.
Chatted to a fellow competitor at Loton Park; he had just come back from Spa and then The Ring...bugger never stopped grinning!

So whats Paul got under his car?

Great fun obviously!

Graham
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Old 15 August 2005, 11:26 PM
  #273  
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I had 9 front and 8 rear with 33 and 32 PSI. This worked well in the dry but I couldn't get confidence in the wet. Simo had Pilot Sport II's and he had much more bite in the rain.

Dry grip is very good and if I add R rated then OMG, it'll be stupidly grippy

F
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Old 16 August 2005, 08:13 AM
  #274  
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At the hill climb last saturday it poured down. Dropped the damping to 3 front and 2 rear and it was just superb, but pressures set at 26! (Kumho V70's: very soft)
Ran 26 psi all round also in the dry.
Graham.
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Old 25 August 2005, 03:57 PM
  #275  
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>Dropped the damping to 3 front and 2 rear
Why run more damping at the front?
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Old 25 August 2005, 09:12 PM
  #276  
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Stiffer springs at the front. 50 N/mm and 40 at the back, also more weight at the front, but also there is a lot of weight transfer to the rear on accelleration.
It all comes down to personal 'feel' to the chassis and the speed you expect to travel.
It is obviously slower in the wet and to get max grip you need a bit more compliance.
However, in the dry you push so much harder and you need stiffer settings/damping.

Really, i should drop the tyre pressures too, but such a pain pumping all 4 back up for a dry run...

Graham
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Old 25 August 2005, 11:14 PM
  #277  
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I should have tried even lower pressures but the track is so big that there was different weather on half of it. I needed higher pressures for the dry parts. Try working that one out Graham

I've also been running at fully soft all round for a family run and it was comparable with OE for compliance.

F
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Old 14 July 2006, 02:06 PM
  #278  
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Post Update

Well it’s a bit dusty in here so I thought I’d bring it back to life!

I’ve still not finished my scoop under tray but it’s getting there I’ve sold the VF35 to make way for a TD05 16g. Not because I think it’s better but through necessity and future upgrade plans…

The VF35 did everything I wanted – fast spool, loads of torque and ultra smooth power to the red line. What it wasn’t so happy with was my induction pipe. I think this was a little too large for its poor gob. I was getting some surge characteristics, which gave a chuffing sound on certain throttle and load conditions. It didn’t seem to affect performance and it was still happy on a few Ring trips and some UK track days but it was still a niggly problem to sort.

After a conversation with Paul and also indirectly with Andy, the advice was to try the TD05 16g. I could have gone bigger with the 18g but I’m still on the 5MT gearbox and the funds would be stretched.

So off with the VF and on with the TD. It only took me 2 + months to do this The delay was down to me sourcing a suitable TD05 and then getting around to porting the exhaust housing for waste gate, entry and a little bit of exit work.

I took the opportunity to fit the SX reg I had sitting around, at the same time. It didn’t have any fitting parts or a gauge but Mark Aigin came to the rescue at very short notice with all the correct parts – top job fella Paul would have helped out but I think his last ex-stock gauge, that he couldn’t find, is on his car now! Thanks for looking anyway. The idea for the SX is the adjustability, stability and to give a bit more pressure for more head room at the top end where my previous set up was maxing out. I’m still on 440’s you see.

So all back together now and now to check for leaks…Turning the pump on revealed a weep from one of the connectors on the SX. A bit of PTFE soon cured that – few. TMIC back on and the car started first time after being idle for 2 months (I did prime the oil system first of course). A bit of oil burnt off the turbo housing when the engine warmed up and it did sound a little farty but all seemed well.

What else has been going on then? After yet another Ring trip I’ve changed the springs on my car from 40/30 to 50/40 and raised the ride height. This was an attempt to stop bottoming out and rubbing on the arches. I’ve tried some wider rubber that I got from Paul – 225 A032’s. They rub slightly on the arches on tight corners so I need to get them rolled – thanks Gerry for the info on a suitable garage to do this, which I shall try soon. Anyway, the suspension mods seem to work on UK tracks. At a RSOC track day earlier this year I discovered what a huge difference the R rated tyres really make. I can now overtake Escort Cosworths pretty much anywhere!

I tried to take some photo’s but my camera died That’s all for now folks.

F
PS why do I always seem to have a tray full of bits left over
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Old 14 July 2006, 04:26 PM
  #279  
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Floyd can you supply the details for the arch-rolling garage? Ta.
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Old 14 July 2006, 06:04 PM
  #280  
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Welcome back F!
Graham.
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Old 14 July 2006, 07:11 PM
  #281  
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Welcome to the TD05 club

You only have a tray full of bits left over because the dimwits at Subaru use more bits than necessary
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Old 14 July 2006, 09:45 PM
  #282  
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only had my td05 fitted for two weeks now and smiles all the way..... ive got another thread to bookmark now Floyd
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Old 15 July 2006, 07:46 PM
  #283  
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I've just had the map looked at and all is well. There is a bit more to go now on the IDC and I could go for 1.5 tailing to 1.4 with the TD05 but I decided not to. The performance is very similar to the VF35, probably a bit more top end but I think I've lost some spool and urgency/sparkle from the low range

I got flashed by a car today for overtaking them... on a clear dual carridgeway I guess the speed at which I went around them upset them, so performance based on other road user 'outrage scale' is good

There's always that thought though of what am I missing, not going for more power when the option is there... I think that prudence is the cheaper option to a new gearbox though; especially if it expires in Germany after a few laps of the Ring!

Cadwell Park at the end of the month is the next shakedown so we'll see if the swap has been worth the effort. I think there is also a RR day coming up so I can compare VF to TD directly without any other mods so to speak?

F
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Old 03 August 2006, 02:34 PM
  #284  
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Post Cadwell shakedown

Well, I’ve now done Cadwell. The 16g has been tweaked and the low rev performance is better. Spool up at low 20C’s ambient will be around 3200-3300 – 1bar 4th gear from 1800. Try that at 30C+ ambient and it’ll be 4k spool

So how does it perform on track? Cadwell for anyone who hasn’t driven the full circuit is IMO the most dangerous track in the country. I thought it was called the mini Ring because of the gradients but it could also be called that due to the lack of run off and close barriers that are unforgiving. It was bad enough to write of an EVO TME and bust the suspension of an Ultima GTR The track has 2 x 2nd gear corners/hairpins, which test spool to the limit. Top end doesn’t seem to be a problem and I could see 120 at Park if I was braver but 110-115 is normal. The 2nd gear stuff isn’t too bad but needs planning and anticipation as there is a lack of boost, which if I’m honest, wouldn’t have happened with the VF35. Smaller, normally aspirated cars could easily get away from me in these corners but they’d be eaten on the straights.

The new springs on my AST’s (50/40) performed well but as its such a tight track (a bike circuit really) there was still a lot of rubbing. I should have tried adjusting the rear a/r bar to its stiffest setting but I wanted predictability and having an over steer moment here would be BAD. I’ll wait until I get an up rated front a/r to balance things out. As a last resort I’ll have to raise the height even more The A032’s are just about spent now but still gave really good grip, enough to pass Caterhams!!!

BTW Has anyone tried to adjust the rear a/r using non parallel holes??? Middle and outer etc???

So my conclusion is that the TD05 16g swap from the VF35 with no other changes is similar on top end performance but not as good low down. The 16g just doesn’t feel as punchy as the VF35 and I’ll bet a rolling road plot will confirm this. So what now? An 18g – more top end but even more lag? A 2.5 – more everywhere but gear box kaput and even more cost?

I wonder how many people swear by the 16g but have never tried a VF35/34?

F
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Old 03 August 2006, 02:46 PM
  #285  
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F: what boost you running?

I had the car out on track for the 1st time with the 16g the other day. Was a tight track and it performed well all apart from one very slow corner where I was exiting in 2nd and there was a touch of lag. Would have been nice to slot it into 1st but thats a no-go with my box.

No det probs or anything. Runs 1.5bar (with aftermarket headers) all the time.
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Old 03 August 2006, 03:13 PM
  #286  
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Default Boost?

IIRC, 1.4 tailing to 1.3. I could add headers and a 3 inch but that would get me more top end at the expense of even more lag. I can get 1.5 tailing to 1.4 as the engine was det free and happy even with 120 oil temps. Incidentally, I removed the under tray to see what difference that made – **** all! I’ll probably get an oil cooler. TMIC temps remained stable at approx 40C all day with ambients of mid/upper 20’s. Oil pressure 6-7bar.

F
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Old 03 August 2006, 03:16 PM
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I get 1 bar @ 3400rpm iirc. Mine wont hold anymore than 1.2 at the top.
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Old 03 August 2006, 05:54 PM
  #288  
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Ive never seen anything like that much lag on a td05, 16 or 18g
I will check with Simon but we had 1 bar at 2850 iirc and 1.6 bar at 3250 or somewhere very similar, and that was 18g.
thats with a fmic and tubular headers...
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Old 03 August 2006, 07:08 PM
  #289  
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Where do you get an 18g with roller bearings from?
Thinking of steping to 18g from the big 20g plain bearing.

My 20g will deliver 1.5 bar from 4500 to about 6500 then down to 1.4 at the very top.

About 1 bar at 3200.
Can be laggy if you let it die.

Graham.
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Old 03 August 2006, 09:41 PM
  #290  
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1 bar at 2850! **** me, how are you measuring this Andy? I floor the throttle at 1800rpm in 4th gear and check where 1 bar appears, level ground no cheating Remember this was in mid 20's ambient and I don't have anything that you would consider to add to lag.

Bob is very similar to mine but he has headers.

F
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Old 03 August 2006, 10:35 PM
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i used to get full boost on my 20g by 3400rpm and that was with a tmic !!!
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Old 03 August 2006, 10:58 PM
  #292  
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ill check my 1 bar pool point this weekend,be interesting to see if the ported headers helped,cant remember when simon mapped the apexi what it was
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Old 04 August 2006, 01:55 AM
  #293  
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Originally Posted by Floyd
BTW Has anyone tried to adjust the rear a/r using non parallel holes??? Middle and outer etc???
Unless you're doing ovals you dont want to do that, it'll give an asymetric rate.
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Old 04 August 2006, 07:57 AM
  #294  
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The 3 positions provided on the rear are quite big steps in effect on the car imho, but I'm not sure if in splitting the 3 rates by this way you need such tuning or indeed what effect you might sense doing a left turn and then a right turn?
I am sure i am not sensitive enough to notice the finer changes but haven't tried it either.
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Old 04 August 2006, 08:56 AM
  #295  
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Thumbs up avc-r

Originally Posted by Floyd
1 bar at 2850! **** me, how are you measuring this Andy?
Hey Floyd
We measured this on the m20, admittedly it was late evening but not particularly cold, there were T-shirts not jumpers
4th gear run and 5th gear run, using the avc-r save point as soon as it hit a bar and again when it made 1.6.
I found the 18g was able to spool a little better than the 16g I used to have

I reckon that with ported headers and a top mount you could really get an 18g car to fly past any 20g you care to, except obviously down the pub
the midrange on the 18g is something to behold, we spent a bit of time really perfecting the mapping and the turbo just kept on giving
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Old 04 August 2006, 01:57 PM
  #296  
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What the hell are you trying to do to my bank balance (enormous as it is) Andy? I was going to try an 18G but all I read evrywhere is that it spools later than a 16g

F

Last edited by Floyd; 04 August 2006 at 03:13 PM.
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Old 04 August 2006, 02:44 PM
  #297  
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Old 14 August 2006, 10:19 PM
  #298  
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Originally Posted by Floyd
I added an uprated pump, not for power but for reliability. My stock system would I believe cope but I wanted to build in extra safety and prepare for Stage IV...
New and old pumps:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...t/DSCN1545.jpg
The new pump is a direct replacement with no wiring necessary as it's plug and play:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...t/DSCN1547.jpg
I modified the fuel return hose to feed directly to the filter as this may help with avoiding surge issues (Tim tip!):
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...t/DSCN1548.jpg
The pump is straight forward to remove but I borrowed Tim W to assist as it looked a bit dangerous I had to swap it another 2 times due to a track day, where the unmapped new pump would have caused overfueling and det Now I'm an expert at changing this

The uprated pump and stock reg should fit my needs but definitely needs mapping to suit.

F
Just a thought (playing devils advocate..), does the standard fuel return perform any cooling of the pump in any way..? Just wondered if that's why it's in the position it's in..?

I'm about to change the pump on my scoob and will be doing Tims/Floyds return hose mod..
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Old 14 August 2006, 10:37 PM
  #299  
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An interesting point but IMO, no! From the angel of the dangel it misses the pump anyway as std.

F
PS Stage III.II is under way...
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Old 14 August 2006, 10:52 PM
  #300  
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Cool

Originally Posted by DuncanG
Unless you're doing ovals you dont want to do that, it'll give an asymetric rate.
Not so, iirc according to whiteline..

It overall length that matters, after all the bars themselves are asymmetric. However, it's like Graham says, the extra adjustment is probably not necessary. I'm about to try firmest setting on my 22mm rear as fitting the 21mm (iirc..?) front has loosened up the front end, as you'd expect.. 05 WRX/AST's (T25 kit) BTW.

Floyd, in a way I'm sorry to say, I'm relieved that you feel the TD05 16g isn't any better than the Vf35, as I'm about to have one fitted (vf) at the end of the month and response was my concern coming from a remapped TD04.

My target is a good 300/300 (at PS) and that's definitely it..! If not I'm going to have to get some tablets from GP..lol..
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