Trout...

Yeah, when David heard about Nitrous - he thought it was using liquid nitrogen as a cooling system for the I/C - it would run very cool - although aluminium in the I/C would get a bit brittle

Trout

Sam Elassar

hi john
i have been mentioning lately about your det problem with you car. few things just don't make sense!

is your car detting all the time or is it just at 5000revs or is it when you floor it at 5000revs?


if your car is detting you need to back the timing off! period. you can really compare timing from other cars and especially not from trouts car i remember when i first started playing around with the link and looked at his map i was shocked. there is not way i could run any where near as much advance at the top end, not even close! i mean the uk car run around 6-8degrees less at least.


you seem to be obsessed by runing more advnace, but it is not always the case to achieve more power. if your car dets with the timing it has got on it will be loosing power.

as for knock sensors they are tuned in one way on another and they will only here noises within the thier tuned range. it is very possible that your manifold has changed the frequency of the det out of reach of the oem knocksensor. does that make sense?


but at the end of the day you should not run your car or even map it and rely on the knocksensor to retard the ignition for you. it only works after the event and it will retard it back to what it was later so it dets again do not know why would anyone want to map their car this way.

john banks

Sam, speaking to Bob a bit about this and it seems it is transient det which the ECU ignores. But I would rather not have it at all. I am using similar advance to what you used to use with your VF23 and all is well. It works both ways - if I have the knock sensor working then it is a safety net if it starts to det with worse heatsoak than I have seen previously - I don't want to run it on the edge, but I also don't want to be a complete pansy with the timing like I am now. Will get a FMIC anyway, so that should help the temperatures.

Pavlo

Hey Sam, seeing as your attention has been got, I built one of those WB AFR things the same as Stevie. Worth considering if you want to save a little, but only about £400 compared to he second one he tried from the US.

I also agree with Sam where he says John seems a little obsessed with running more advance.

Paul

Sam Elassar

john

don't you think it is a bit funny though that this transient det only happens in certain cars? have you actually ever time logged or put a car on a dyno with lets say 2 degrees of advance off? you will be surprised. i remember i had my car on the rollers ages ago and backing the igntion off form 12degree+10 tp 10+10 gave me more power and less det and that was the 3rd and 4th runs!

as for trasnient det, i think you are all probably looking in the wrong direction . i tell you what though, your front mount is not going to get rid of it . well, that is my opinion anyway!

get a proper ecu


pavlo

i am waiting for the wideband to arrive fully assembled may i add , have you actually tested yours yet?

Sam Elassar

ps please, don't go for pace intercooler/radiator combo!. just do it like every one else and get the hyperflow,aps, hks etc.. you will need to cut your bumper though

Pavlo

Sam,

AFR meter built and tested. only thing waiting for is a second lambda boss to be fitted somewhere easier to get to on the downpipe

Also, if you are getting the one from Techedge, you probably still need to sort yourself out with some crimps for battery terminals, and possibly a switch and inline fuse.

works okay just holding at the tail pipe, so I might make a clamp-on tube for easy fitting to decat cars (mine still has one cat, I think

paul

john banks

Sam I am planning to go for the APS after speaking to Bob, who incidentally seems to rather like this ECU Bob also suggested a catch can to help the transient det. It is intake temperature related so why will a FMIC not help? Can you be more specific about what you think WILL get rid of it rather than just slag my beloved ECU ?

Whatever, I am not obsessive about running advance - it is more that I had to RETARD IT FROM THE STANDARD MY99 MAP to stop it detting and would like to regain some of this, because it is definitely slower with the retard.

Are you saying you went over MBT on the dyno? Some reckon they have with Subarus, others are doubtful it can be done.

Pavlo

John,

When you say you have had to retard, you need to look at exactly what's going on.

Are you seeing more airflow than before, and therefore using parts of the map you haven't with a standard turbo? It's not really fair to compare your current set up with standard, if you didn't use the whole map with the previous turbo. In other words, would you have got det in these temps if you managed to get the airflow as high. Basically what I am saying is the standard ignition maps may be unaccurate outside of of the flow you can easily get, as need the airflow in the first place to map the engine!

I also assume that the bigger turbo flows more air for the the same boost, thus raising the dynamic C/R more than standard.

Are you comparing results from runs in the same temperature with the standard turbo? Or just the new turbo with the standard map?

Paul

john banks

It is difficult to compare because to prevent taking my car apart with T-uk a squillion times, I often break the modders rule of only doing one thing at a time.

I have however, hit the last row of the map apart from over 6000 RPM, but this is all with non standard turbos. Have changed the headings (ie the load points) and fiddled lots.

I would expect to retard timing for higher boost, higher temperature, and advance it for less exhaust back pressure. It is which of these factors are most important - for example I usually have ended up increasing boost until the intake temperatures scare me off going higher. However there are some people who manage to run silly timing at high boost - I think they usually have more cooling than me, hence now thinking along this route. Having said that some of the Link guys with VF23 and FMIC do not seem to be running much more timing. Others do

The thing is people do get similar airflow to me with a standard ECU and a big turbo, but do not seem to get the det. So the MY99 ECU last row timing is relevant as a benchmark.

[Edited by john banks - 8/20/2002 10:01:55 AM]

Pavlo

This det you're hearing, you don't suppose it's the wastegate do you?

Just clutching at straws now!

Could it be you need to run cooler plugs?

Paul

[Edited by Pavlo - 8/20/2002 10:15:09 AM]

john banks

I am running cooler plugs NGK PFR 7B and they are in good condition. It gets worse with heatsoak, and improves and then disappears with ignition retard.

I am ordering induction, intake pipe, FMIC/DV.

Pavlo

hmmm, anything to beat Andy!

sounds good, as you say, best try all tuning options on a test car!

I hope you are keeping a record, as these could be deemed as capital expenditure, and a proportion written off against tax.

Paul

john banks

Of course Paul I still won't beat Andy no illusions there.

Sam Elassar

i don't think i have reached the MBT, but at the same time some of the advance figures you guys are runing without any proof that they are actually doing anything sometimes make me wonder.

uk cars run 10-12 degrees and slightly more at the top end. with FMIC you can add few degrees on top of that. but that is about it. STIs start with 18s and can go to 26s with water injection.

but here is a question for you, uk cars with more than 10degrees less advance than sti put out more power. different cars, different cams all together! so i am not going to try to run a uk car over 14 degrees. and by the way i know you have alan's G map and i am fully aware of the figures .


WI is a shaddy subject, what you loose by adding water you gain by adding advance, so you end up with roughly the same power but slighty safer and maybe less weather dependant. unless off course you have FMIC.


i am not slagging off your ecu by the way, i think it is rather cute .

john banks

Sam, it appears that the STis have about 8-10 degrees offset compared with the UKs at least comparing JECS with JECS. Bob says that the different oil pumps lead to different offsets on the position sensor pickups.

carlos_hiraoka

Do STi's and UK WRX's have different oil pumps ..... ?????

Carlos H.

Pavlo

Oil pumps?

Pistons sensors?

Just re-read, position sensors. But how is all this related to oil pressure? Come to think of it, how does the ecu tell engine rotation degrees with such (relatively) course divisions on the timing wheel? Does it calculate ignition point based on a time past some point at the measured speed?

Huh?

[Edited by Pavlo - 8/20/2002 5:13:21 PM]

carlos_hiraoka

I know that the APS and HKS FMIC units seem to be the most popular this days (at least around scoobynet and 22b.com), but both this FMIC's have big cores and should give "some xtra" lag , i would like to know if anyone has seen or considered the apexi FMIC, probably not suited for very high HP applications but should be good enough for ~ 350hp .....










Carlos H.

[Edited by carlos_hiraoka - 8/20/2002 5:17:41 PM]

john banks

I gather there are several different oil pumps between different models. Have not looked why, but this apparently affects where the reference is for timing, hence the differences between models.

Moles Dad

Sam Elassar, why not use the Pace FMIC?

Bob Rawle

Sam. you are quoting Link degrees again, very confusing for those that don't know !! And a little off the beam as well these days.

Sam Elassar

sorry bob they are link timing so , so for all the people that don't know add 10 to that

sam