So Brexit seems to be a good thing then.
13 March 2018, 10:13 PM
#2521
Scooby Regular
I'm not so sure, the air industry is complex to say the least. Example - whilst our ATCO licences are issued by the CAA, they are effectively regulated by the EU and consequently the ECJ. That being the case, whilst we might have signed up to a open skies agreement, I don't know how things will work if we don't have any signed off/qualified ATCO services. Not many airlines would want to fly ***** nilly over the UK without any ATCO services.
Finding the necessary information online is difficult to say the least and you end up going down rabbit holes of Euro Control and EASA.
Have a gander at this and see what you think - http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-conte...R_0001&from=EN
Finding the necessary information online is difficult to say the least and you end up going down rabbit holes of Euro Control and EASA.
Have a gander at this and see what you think - http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-conte...R_0001&from=EN
At the very least we will have to set up our own licencing regime (including enforcement, supervision etc) for Air Traffic controllers
I suspect thing like this are taxing the people at DExEU all the time - and will continue for years as we unpeel the Brexit onion
You will know when the UK has come to terms with Brexit it is when we start concrete-ing over large parts of Kent to prepare for all the delays due to phytosanitary and rules of origin checks that will be required
13 March 2018, 10:43 PM
#2522
Scooby Regular
Yes that's interesting - thank you
At the very least we will have to set up our own licencing regime (including enforcement, supervision etc) for Air Traffic controllers
I suspect thing like this are taxing the people at DExEU all the time - and will continue for years as we unpeel the Brexit onion
You will know when the UK has come to terms with Brexit it is when we start concrete-ing over large parts of Kent to prepare for all the delays due to phytosanitary and rules of origin checks that will be required
At the very least we will have to set up our own licencing regime (including enforcement, supervision etc) for Air Traffic controllers
I suspect thing like this are taxing the people at DExEU all the time - and will continue for years as we unpeel the Brexit onion
You will know when the UK has come to terms with Brexit it is when we start concrete-ing over large parts of Kent to prepare for all the delays due to phytosanitary and rules of origin checks that will be required
Last edited by hodgy0_2; 13 March 2018 at 10:45 PM.
14 March 2018, 11:37 AM
#2523
Scooby Senior
lol, completely coincidently I have just seen this
https://twitter.com/CommonsEU/status...583677a655c093
https://twitter.com/CommonsEU/status...583677a655c093
Its sad that everyone always goes on about the cost of the EU, but nobody ever talks about the cost savings the EU has brought through common regulatory and research boards - be it for aviation, automotive approval, drug and medicine approval, food standards etc. All these centralised functions will now have to be duplicated in the UK at great expence to the British tax payer. Not to mention the increased costs in the ports and immigration and all the new whitehall jobs that are needed to manage everything. Ł350M a week probably won't even start to cover the extra costs we're going it incur!
14 March 2018, 11:48 AM
#2524
Scooby Regular
They only just worked that out! They've been on about it in the press for over a year!
Its sad that everyone always goes on about the cost of the EU, but nobody ever talks about the cost savings the EU has brought through common regulatory and research boards - be it for aviation, automotive approval, drug and medicine approval, food standards etc. All these centralised functions will now have to be duplicated in the UK at great expence to the British tax payer. Not to mention the increased costs in the ports and immigration and all the new whitehall jobs that are needed to manage everything. Ł350M a week probably won't even start to cover the extra costs we're going it incur!
Its sad that everyone always goes on about the cost of the EU, but nobody ever talks about the cost savings the EU has brought through common regulatory and research boards - be it for aviation, automotive approval, drug and medicine approval, food standards etc. All these centralised functions will now have to be duplicated in the UK at great expence to the British tax payer. Not to mention the increased costs in the ports and immigration and all the new whitehall jobs that are needed to manage everything. Ł350M a week probably won't even start to cover the extra costs we're going it incur!
they don't really think anything will change - I mean we are just leaving the EU aren't we
it so simple - take down EU flags, plaque's and signs, cancel the direct debit - get blue passports again
job done
14 March 2018, 05:09 PM
#2527
Scooby Senior
Well, technically, I don't have to pay it as i'm not tax resident in the UK
But i'm sure the majority of the people who voted to leave to get that Ł350M for the NHS will be somewhat miffed to find they will now have to pay more and the NHS won't be getting a penny of it!
But at least you can laugh about how you made everyone poorer!
14 March 2018, 10:48 PM
#2530
They only just worked that out! They've been on about it in the press for over a year!
Its sad that everyone always goes on about the cost of the EU, but nobody ever talks about the cost savings the EU has brought through common regulatory and research boards - be it for aviation, automotive approval, drug and medicine approval, food standards etc. All these centralised functions will now have to be duplicated in the UK at great expence to the British tax payer. Not to mention the increased costs in the ports and immigration and all the new whitehall jobs that are needed to manage everything. Ł350M a week probably won't even start to cover the extra costs we're going it incur!
Its sad that everyone always goes on about the cost of the EU, but nobody ever talks about the cost savings the EU has brought through common regulatory and research boards - be it for aviation, automotive approval, drug and medicine approval, food standards etc. All these centralised functions will now have to be duplicated in the UK at great expence to the British tax payer. Not to mention the increased costs in the ports and immigration and all the new whitehall jobs that are needed to manage everything. Ł350M a week probably won't even start to cover the extra costs we're going it incur!
, this country has been a ****hole for years with a little tiny gold gilted edge, now the piggies feeding on the gilted edge may have to stop sniffing up all the good stuff and share a little with us minnions in order for it to work, in all this bs only one mp stands out as being honest, and thats farage, after all his campainging we are on our way out, and he will be a euro mp no more, so he has actually done himself out of a job, a fact very few mention
14 March 2018, 11:00 PM
#2531
don't forget tax and ni on that wages bill. plus the fact those workers will spend thier wages therefore putting the remaining amout back into OUR OWN ECONOMY unless of course they all buy mercs and bmws and other eu products, you people banging on about doom n gloom rely need to look at the bigger picture, its a big moneygo round just like dole money people bang on about, it gets spent and every Ł spent gets taxed and they pays someone elses wages, work it out people Ł500 a week to a family on the dole is in reality taxed spent and pays other peoples wages so is probably nearer Ł300 or less, and i take solace from the fact that i aint paying it its the 1% who pay 28% of taxes in this country that are
15 March 2018, 08:41 AM
#2532
Scooby Senior
has there suddenly been changes to bs standards and iso standards, which apply to aviation, automotive, healthcare, h&s,food, and every fvcking thing else, are all these standards and regulations suddenly not going to be good enough for us, if they are not then the companies making billions out of us will have to put thier hands in thier pockets , this country has been a ****hole for years with a little tiny gold gilted edge, now the piggies feeding on the gilted edge may have to stop sniffing up all the good stuff and share a little with us minnions in order for it to work, in all this bs only one mp stands out as being honest, and thats farage, after all his campainging we are on our way out, and he will be a euro mp no more, so he has actually done himself out of a job, a fact very few mention
, this country has been a ****hole for years with a little tiny gold gilted edge, now the piggies feeding on the gilted edge may have to stop sniffing up all the good stuff and share a little with us minnions in order for it to work, in all this bs only one mp stands out as being honest, and thats farage, after all his campainging we are on our way out, and he will be a euro mp no more, so he has actually done himself out of a job, a fact very few mentionNo, the standards haven't changed, but all of these standards require regulatory bodies to oversee the standards. In many cases, the UK doesn't have its own regulatory body, but instead, pools its resources with the other 27 EU countries for a common regulatory body - so instead of each country paying the full cost for their own bodies, they pay 1/28th of the cost for a common body. When the UK leaves with a hard Brexit, then these bodies will no longer represent the UK, so the UK will have to create its own in order to maintain the required standards. So all the savings we get from common bodies are lost and the UK tax payer has to foot the bill!
Yes, you're right that the money goes round to a certain extent, but very little of the money paid for public service jobs comes back to the exchequer, but rather lines the pockets of big businesses, many of which are international and if not, much of the profits are paid out in shareholder dividends which will in many cases be offshore and lost to the UK revenue. So in the end, any increase to public service costs will be bourne by the taxpayer. Sure, the majority of tax is paid by the rich, but a small tax increase hurts the poor the most.
As an example thats been in the press a lot, the EU open skies agreement forms a central regulatory body for air trafic control and air worthiness. Under international aviation laws, every country wishing to operate international flights must have a regulatory body which conforms to the international aviation standards. Any airlines operating out of that country are given their air worthiness approval from that body, so are the airports themselves controlled to meed international aviation standards. In the absence of a controling body, then it will not be possible airlines based in that country to operate international flights - That means BA, Virgin, EasyJet, RyanAir, FlyBe, Jet2 and a number of other smaller airlines will effectively be grounded until we establish our own regulatory authority which has gained international recognition (there is a complicated approval process that has to be met before gaining international recognition). The alternative is to stay in the EU Open Skies agreement, but that means we have to continue to pay the EU for the service, aviation disputes will be under the juristiction of the ECJ and in that area, we won't have taken back control!
Another case you may have heard a bit about is the Eurpean Medical Authority - currently based in the UK but now leaving (so thats UK jobs and tax revenue that will be lost). Part of thier job is to look at new medicines or medical procedures to determine if they are safe to be used on humans. A very complicated and expensive process with very serious implications for our healthcare. Currently, the very best medical researchers from across the EU work for the authority. When we leave, then we need to establish our own body which is essentially going to duplicate the work done by the EU body, all at our expense and we're not going to be able to attract the cream of the crop from across Europe any more. Also the Pharma lobby will be able to gain more influence over a smaller body representing a single country than a larger body representing 28 countries.
Its not a case of doom & gloom, but a case of looking at the reality rather than the glossy brochure (or bus) regarding Brexit. I can definitely see many benefits to Brexit, but those benefits are substantial to very rich people while being very costly to the poor. Your beloved Nigel Farage has played a blinder and convincing the British public that he's one of the people and doing himself out of a job, but in reality he's an extremely rich ex-banker who has many other income sources which make his salary from the EU look like small change - he's certainly not one of the poor people that's going to get hurt. Look at the other Hard-Line Brexit supporters - Reece-Mogg, Davies, Johnson, Gove, IDS - not one of them could be called a "man of the people" - They're all extremely rich toffs with many other business interests whose political life is little more than a hobby and exactly the ones who stand to gain the most from Brexit. They're the 1% who aren't going to go hungry with a little tax rise. There is a reason why the overwhelming majority of parliament didn't support brexit in the referendum and there is a commonality amongst the majority of Brexit supporers in parliament - they're all extremely rich elitists! (Discalimer: the politions who aren't the rich elite and supported Brexit are the Marxist/Communist types like Corbyn who envisage a very different socialist outcome from Brexit!)
15 March 2018, 02:39 PM
#2533
Scooby Senior
Incidentally, the Happyness tables for 2018 are in, and out of the top 10, 4 countries (including #1) are full members of the EU and a further three are in the EU customs union! The top 6 places are all EU/Customs union countries. The UK just scrapes in the top 20 in 19th place, one place below the US! Sweden even manages 9th place despite having the highest rate of immigration vs population in the world!
So from that, I'd also conclude that quality of life does not require you "having control"! In fact, it would appear having a strong trading relationship with the EU generally helps!
It would appear the UK is doing something wrong that is perhaps not just down to immigration and EU membership!
Last edited by BMWhere?; 15 March 2018 at 02:42 PM.
15 March 2018, 03:37 PM
#2534
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No, the standards haven't changed, but all of these standards require regulatory bodies to oversee the standards. In many cases, the UK doesn't have its own regulatory body, but instead, pools its resources with the other 27 EU countries for a common regulatory body - so instead of each country paying the full cost for their own bodies, they pay 1/28th of the cost for a common body. When the UK leaves with a hard Brexit, then these bodies will no longer represent the UK, so the UK will have to create its own in order to maintain the required standards. So all the savings we get from common bodies are lost and the UK tax payer has to foot the bill!
Yes, you're right that the money goes round to a certain extent, but very little of the money paid for public service jobs comes back to the exchequer, but rather lines the pockets of big businesses, many of which are international and if not, much of the profits are paid out in shareholder dividends which will in many cases be offshore and lost to the UK revenue. So in the end, any increase to public service costs will be bourne by the taxpayer. Sure, the majority of tax is paid by the rich, but a small tax increase hurts the poor the most.
As an example thats been in the press a lot, the EU open skies agreement forms a central regulatory body for air trafic control and air worthiness. Under international aviation laws, every country wishing to operate international flights must have a regulatory body which conforms to the international aviation standards. Any airlines operating out of that country are given their air worthiness approval from that body, so are the airports themselves controlled to meed international aviation standards. In the absence of a controling body, then it will not be possible airlines based in that country to operate international flights - That means BA, Virgin, EasyJet, RyanAir, FlyBe, Jet2 and a number of other smaller airlines will effectively be grounded until we establish our own regulatory authority which has gained international recognition (there is a complicated approval process that has to be met before gaining international recognition). The alternative is to stay in the EU Open Skies agreement, but that means we have to continue to pay the EU for the service, aviation disputes will be under the juristiction of the ECJ and in that area, we won't have taken back control!
Another case you may have heard a bit about is the Eurpean Medical Authority - currently based in the UK but now leaving (so thats UK jobs and tax revenue that will be lost). Part of thier job is to look at new medicines or medical procedures to determine if they are safe to be used on humans. A very complicated and expensive process with very serious implications for our healthcare. Currently, the very best medical researchers from across the EU work for the authority. When we leave, then we need to establish our own body which is essentially going to duplicate the work done by the EU body, all at our expense and we're not going to be able to attract the cream of the crop from across Europe any more. Also the Pharma lobby will be able to gain more influence over a smaller body representing a single country than a larger body representing 28 countries.
Its not a case of doom & gloom, but a case of looking at the reality rather than the glossy brochure (or bus) regarding Brexit. I can definitely see many benefits to Brexit, but those benefits are substantial to very rich people while being very costly to the poor. Your beloved Nigel Farage has played a blinder and convincing the British public that he's one of the people and doing himself out of a job, but in reality he's an extremely rich ex-banker who has many other income sources which make his salary from the EU look like small change - he's certainly not one of the poor people that's going to get hurt. Look at the other Hard-Line Brexit supporters - Reece-Mogg, Davies, Johnson, Gove, IDS - not one of them could be called a "man of the people" - They're all extremely rich toffs with many other business interests whose political life is little more than a hobby and exactly the ones who stand to gain the most from Brexit. They're the 1% who aren't going to go hungry with a little tax rise. There is a reason why the overwhelming majority of parliament didn't support brexit in the referendum and there is a commonality amongst the majority of Brexit supporers in parliament - they're all extremely rich elitists! (Discalimer: the politions who aren't the rich elite and supported Brexit are the Marxist/Communist types like Corbyn who envisage a very different socialist outcome from Brexit!)
Yes, you're right that the money goes round to a certain extent, but very little of the money paid for public service jobs comes back to the exchequer, but rather lines the pockets of big businesses, many of which are international and if not, much of the profits are paid out in shareholder dividends which will in many cases be offshore and lost to the UK revenue. So in the end, any increase to public service costs will be bourne by the taxpayer. Sure, the majority of tax is paid by the rich, but a small tax increase hurts the poor the most.
As an example thats been in the press a lot, the EU open skies agreement forms a central regulatory body for air trafic control and air worthiness. Under international aviation laws, every country wishing to operate international flights must have a regulatory body which conforms to the international aviation standards. Any airlines operating out of that country are given their air worthiness approval from that body, so are the airports themselves controlled to meed international aviation standards. In the absence of a controling body, then it will not be possible airlines based in that country to operate international flights - That means BA, Virgin, EasyJet, RyanAir, FlyBe, Jet2 and a number of other smaller airlines will effectively be grounded until we establish our own regulatory authority which has gained international recognition (there is a complicated approval process that has to be met before gaining international recognition). The alternative is to stay in the EU Open Skies agreement, but that means we have to continue to pay the EU for the service, aviation disputes will be under the juristiction of the ECJ and in that area, we won't have taken back control!
Another case you may have heard a bit about is the Eurpean Medical Authority - currently based in the UK but now leaving (so thats UK jobs and tax revenue that will be lost). Part of thier job is to look at new medicines or medical procedures to determine if they are safe to be used on humans. A very complicated and expensive process with very serious implications for our healthcare. Currently, the very best medical researchers from across the EU work for the authority. When we leave, then we need to establish our own body which is essentially going to duplicate the work done by the EU body, all at our expense and we're not going to be able to attract the cream of the crop from across Europe any more. Also the Pharma lobby will be able to gain more influence over a smaller body representing a single country than a larger body representing 28 countries.
Its not a case of doom & gloom, but a case of looking at the reality rather than the glossy brochure (or bus) regarding Brexit. I can definitely see many benefits to Brexit, but those benefits are substantial to very rich people while being very costly to the poor. Your beloved Nigel Farage has played a blinder and convincing the British public that he's one of the people and doing himself out of a job, but in reality he's an extremely rich ex-banker who has many other income sources which make his salary from the EU look like small change - he's certainly not one of the poor people that's going to get hurt. Look at the other Hard-Line Brexit supporters - Reece-Mogg, Davies, Johnson, Gove, IDS - not one of them could be called a "man of the people" - They're all extremely rich toffs with many other business interests whose political life is little more than a hobby and exactly the ones who stand to gain the most from Brexit. They're the 1% who aren't going to go hungry with a little tax rise. There is a reason why the overwhelming majority of parliament didn't support brexit in the referendum and there is a commonality amongst the majority of Brexit supporers in parliament - they're all extremely rich elitists! (Discalimer: the politions who aren't the rich elite and supported Brexit are the Marxist/Communist types like Corbyn who envisage a very different socialist outcome from Brexit!)
good post that
20 March 2018, 01:02 PM
#2535
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So we, on doorstep Europe may need visas, where's half way across world they won't
https://m.traveller24.com/TravelPlan...-rise-20160930
https://m.traveller24.com/TravelPlan...-rise-20160930
21 March 2018, 03:43 PM
#2539
21 March 2018, 04:28 PM
#2540
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kind of what I expected, and very troubling.
Our democracy has indeed been hacked.
21 March 2018, 04:41 PM
#2541
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People that blindly 'share' propaganda on FB just because it happens to be what they want to be true are active participants in subverting our democratic process. Never ever 'share' anything unless you've research the facts and the source (NEWSFLASH more often than not it's will turn out to be a lie, totally inaccurate or a half truth, and from a source pushing an pernicious agenda), otherwise you're just a useful idiot IMO.
Last edited by Martin2005; 21 March 2018 at 04:48 PM.
21 March 2018, 05:17 PM
#2542
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Brexit aside, we as consumers of social media need to act more responsibly.
People that blindly 'share' propaganda on FB just because it happens to be what they want to be true are active participants in subverting our democratic process. Never ever 'share' anything unless you've research the facts and the source (NEWSFLASH more often than not it's will turn out to be a lie, totally inaccurate or a half truth, and from a source pushing an pernicious agenda), otherwise you're just a useful idiot IMO.
People that blindly 'share' propaganda on FB just because it happens to be what they want to be true are active participants in subverting our democratic process. Never ever 'share' anything unless you've research the facts and the source (NEWSFLASH more often than not it's will turn out to be a lie, totally inaccurate or a half truth, and from a source pushing an pernicious agenda), otherwise you're just a useful idiot IMO.
21 March 2018, 05:48 PM
#2543
Brexit aside, we as consumers of social media need to act more responsibly.
People that blindly 'share' propaganda on FB just because it happens to be what they want to be true are active participants in subverting our democratic process. Never ever 'share' anything unless you've research the facts and the source (NEWSFLASH more often than not it's will turn out to be a lie, totally inaccurate or a half truth, and from a source pushing an pernicious agenda), otherwise you're just a useful idiot IMO.
People that blindly 'share' propaganda on FB just because it happens to be what they want to be true are active participants in subverting our democratic process. Never ever 'share' anything unless you've research the facts and the source (NEWSFLASH more often than not it's will turn out to be a lie, totally inaccurate or a half truth, and from a source pushing an pernicious agenda), otherwise you're just a useful idiot IMO.
21 March 2018, 06:43 PM
#2546
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Truth tellers have a duty to be in and amongst the darkness. If the Martins and Marks of this world opt-out of the most powerful propaganda vehicle said world has ever seen, they aid and abet a victory for the fraudsters and tricksters and the outright malevolent. We must do our bit for the short time we’re here.
21 March 2018, 07:45 PM
#2547
Scooby Regular
Carole Cadwalladr from the Guardian has been writing about this for well over a year
and anyone who has followed the Climate Change debate for the last 10 to 15 years has been aware of these shadowy right wing think tanks and astro turfing organisations - same actors in the Brexit debate, same links to the US (Atlantic Bridge) often from the same offices
21 March 2018, 08:14 PM
#2548
but this is quite old news tbh
Carole Cadwalladr from the Guardian has been writing about this for well over a year
and anyone who has followed the Climate Change debate for the last 10 to 15 years has been aware of these shadowy right wing think tanks and astro turfing organisations - same actors in the Brexit debate, same links to the US (Atlantic Bridge) often from the same offices
Carole Cadwalladr from the Guardian has been writing about this for well over a year
and anyone who has followed the Climate Change debate for the last 10 to 15 years has been aware of these shadowy right wing think tanks and astro turfing organisations - same actors in the Brexit debate, same links to the US (Atlantic Bridge) often from the same offices
I'd say it's older news than that, indeed the climate arguments is another good example. The reasoning why I never really took to FB and Twitter was partly due to the targeted feeds which struck to me as odd, hard to explain but when things pop up in a feed, I questioned why was it there and why it seemed to target me in terms of relevance.
The current media bandwagon are using this no-s*it-Sherlock news that this happening is the sole reasoning for the US election and UK referendum result. A lot so far, including the above links is speculative and merely suggests it having influence. It's blissfully ignorant to think if one side is doing it that the opposing side isn't. Of course they were/are, just their methods didn't get the wanted result: Clinton, Remain, hell even Corbyn, with him sitting on the floor of a train! Any "viral" campaign is guilty of this, be it via social media or merely a skewed sensationslist tabloid front page.
Then after all this, what % of the total population is influenced? Is the majority really that stupid? No, there are plenty of "sheeple", but are they so vacuous between the ears not filter through what is nonsense and fact?
Last edited by ALi-B; 21 March 2018 at 08:25 PM.
21 March 2018, 08:19 PM
#2549
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I'd say it's older news than that, indeed the climate arguments is another good example. The reasoning why I never really took to FB and Twitter was partly due targeted feeds struck me as odd, hard to explain but when things pop up in a feed, I questioned why was it there and why it seemed to target me in terms of relevance.
The current media bandwagon are using this no-s*it-Sherlock news that this happening is the sole reasoning for the US election and UK referendum result. A lot so far, including the above links is speculative and merely suggests it having influence. It's blissfully ignorant to think if one side is doing it that the opposing side isn't. Of course they were/are, just their methods didn't get the wanted result: Clinton, Remain, hell even Corbyn, with him sitting on the floor of a train! Any "viral" campaign is guilty of this, be it via social media or merely a skewed sensationslist tabloid front page.
Then after all this, what % of the total population is influenced? Is the majority really that stupid? No, there are plenty of "sheeple", but are they so vacuous between the ears not filter through what is nonsense and fact?
The current media bandwagon are using this no-s*it-Sherlock news that this happening is the sole reasoning for the US election and UK referendum result. A lot so far, including the above links is speculative and merely suggests it having influence. It's blissfully ignorant to think if one side is doing it that the opposing side isn't. Of course they were/are, just their methods didn't get the wanted result: Clinton, Remain, hell even Corbyn, with him sitting on the floor of a train! Any "viral" campaign is guilty of this, be it via social media or merely a skewed sensationslist tabloid front page.
Then after all this, what % of the total population is influenced? Is the majority really that stupid? No, there are plenty of "sheeple", but are they so vacuous between the ears not filter through what is nonsense and fact?
Brexit was won by a small margin, so yes it can make a difference.
That said, both sides will do it.And no doubt will get better at it,. Then we have a propaganda arms race being fought by shadowy, unaccountable organisation, prone to influence from elements that mean us no good.
Should the battle of ideas really be won with lies and deceit?
Last edited by Martin2005; 21 March 2018 at 08:23 PM.
21 March 2018, 08:30 PM
#2550
Truth tellers have a duty to be in and amongst the darkness. If the Martins and Marks of this world opt-out of the most powerful propaganda vehicle said world has ever seen, they aid and abet a victory for the fraudsters and tricksters and the outright malevolent. We must do our bit for the short time we’re here.