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So Brexit seems to be a good thing then.

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Old 13 March 2018, 10:13 PM   #2521  
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I'm not so sure, the air industry is complex to say the least. Example - whilst our ATCO licences are issued by the CAA, they are effectively regulated by the EU and consequently the ECJ. That being the case, whilst we might have signed up to a open skies agreement, I don't know how things will work if we don't have any signed off/qualified ATCO services. Not many airlines would want to fly ***** nilly over the UK without any ATCO services.

Finding the necessary information online is difficult to say the least and you end up going down rabbit holes of Euro Control and EASA.

Have a gander at this and see what you think - http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-conte...R_0001&from=EN
Yes that's interesting - thank you

At the very least we will have to set up our own licencing regime (including enforcement, supervision etc) for Air Traffic controllers

I suspect thing like this are taxing the people at DExEU all the time - and will continue for years as we unpeel the Brexit onion

You will know when the UK has come to terms with Brexit it is when we start concrete-ing over large parts of Kent to prepare for all the delays due to phytosanitary and rules of origin checks that will be required
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Old 13 March 2018, 10:43 PM   #2522  
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Yes that's interesting - thank you

At the very least we will have to set up our own licencing regime (including enforcement, supervision etc) for Air Traffic controllers

I suspect thing like this are taxing the people at DExEU all the time - and will continue for years as we unpeel the Brexit onion

You will know when the UK has come to terms with Brexit it is when we start concrete-ing over large parts of Kent to prepare for all the delays due to phytosanitary and rules of origin checks that will be required
lol, completely coincidently I have just seen this


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Old 14 March 2018, 11:37 AM   #2523  
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lol, completely coincidently I have just seen this

https://twitter.com/CommonsEU/status...583677a655c093
They only just worked that out! They've been on about it in the press for over a year!


Its sad that everyone always goes on about the cost of the EU, but nobody ever talks about the cost savings the EU has brought through common regulatory and research boards - be it for aviation, automotive approval, drug and medicine approval, food standards etc. All these centralised functions will now have to be duplicated in the UK at great expence to the British tax payer. Not to mention the increased costs in the ports and immigration and all the new whitehall jobs that are needed to manage everything. £350M a week probably won't even start to cover the extra costs we're going it incur!
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Old 14 March 2018, 11:48 AM   #2524  
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They only just worked that out! They've been on about it in the press for over a year!


Its sad that everyone always goes on about the cost of the EU, but nobody ever talks about the cost savings the EU has brought through common regulatory and research boards - be it for aviation, automotive approval, drug and medicine approval, food standards etc. All these centralised functions will now have to be duplicated in the UK at great expence to the British tax payer. Not to mention the increased costs in the ports and immigration and all the new whitehall jobs that are needed to manage everything. £350M a week probably won't even start to cover the extra costs we're going it incur!
yeah - if you manage to speak to a Bexiteer "in the wild" so to speak

they don't really think anything will change - I mean we are just leaving the EU aren't we

it so simple - take down EU flags, plaque's and signs, cancel the direct debit - get blue passports again

job done
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Old 14 March 2018, 01:30 PM   #2525  
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2bn needed for extra staff alone , Still , all be worth it

haha
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Old 14 March 2018, 04:12 PM   #2526  
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The good chuckle is you have to pay it aswell. I'm happy to pay, are you?
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Old 14 March 2018, 05:09 PM   #2527  
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The good chuckle is you have to pay it aswell. I'm happy to pay, are you?

Well, technically, I don't have to pay it as i'm not tax resident in the UK


But i'm sure the majority of the people who voted to leave to get that £350M for the NHS will be somewhat miffed to find they will now have to pay more and the NHS won't be getting a penny of it!


But at least you can laugh about how you made everyone poorer!
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Old 14 March 2018, 05:12 PM   #2528  
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But at least you can laugh about how you made everyone poorer!
For the right reasons, quality of life is not always measured in pound notes
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Old 14 March 2018, 05:51 PM   #2529  
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Where / what is this elusive prospective upgraded quality life going to look like /come from, thats what i want to know
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Old 14 March 2018, 10:48 PM   #2530  
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They only just worked that out! They've been on about it in the press for over a year!


Its sad that everyone always goes on about the cost of the EU, but nobody ever talks about the cost savings the EU has brought through common regulatory and research boards - be it for aviation, automotive approval, drug and medicine approval, food standards etc. All these centralised functions will now have to be duplicated in the UK at great expence to the British tax payer. Not to mention the increased costs in the ports and immigration and all the new whitehall jobs that are needed to manage everything. £350M a week probably won't even start to cover the extra costs we're going it incur!
has there suddenly been changes to bs standards and iso standards, which apply to aviation, automotive, healthcare, h&s,food, and every fvcking thing else, are all these standards and regulations suddenly not going to be good enough for us, if they are not then the companies making billions out of us will have to put thier hands in thier pockets , this country has been a ****hole for years with a little tiny gold gilted edge, now the piggies feeding on the gilted edge may have to stop sniffing up all the good stuff and share a little with us minnions in order for it to work, in all this bs only one mp stands out as being honest, and thats farage, after all his campainging we are on our way out, and he will be a euro mp no more, so he has actually done himself out of a job, a fact very few mention
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Old 14 March 2018, 11:00 PM   #2531  
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2bn needed for extra staff alone , Still , all be worth it

haha
don't forget tax and ni on that wages bill. plus the fact those workers will spend thier wages therefore putting the remaining amout back into OUR OWN ECONOMY unless of course they all buy mercs and bmws and other eu products, you people banging on about doom n gloom rely need to look at the bigger picture, its a big moneygo round just like dole money people bang on about, it gets spent and every £ spent gets taxed and they pays someone elses wages, work it out people £500 a week to a family on the dole is in reality taxed spent and pays other peoples wages so is probably nearer £300 or less, and i take solace from the fact that i aint paying it its the 1% who pay 28% of taxes in this country that are
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Old 15 March 2018, 08:41 AM   #2532  
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has there suddenly been changes to bs standards and iso standards, which apply to aviation, automotive, healthcare, h&s,food, and every fvcking thing else, are all these standards and regulations suddenly not going to be good enough for us, if they are not then the companies making billions out of us will have to put thier hands in thier pockets , this country has been a ****hole for years with a little tiny gold gilted edge, now the piggies feeding on the gilted edge may have to stop sniffing up all the good stuff and share a little with us minnions in order for it to work, in all this bs only one mp stands out as being honest, and thats farage, after all his campainging we are on our way out, and he will be a euro mp no more, so he has actually done himself out of a job, a fact very few mention


No, the standards haven't changed, but all of these standards require regulatory bodies to oversee the standards. In many cases, the UK doesn't have its own regulatory body, but instead, pools its resources with the other 27 EU countries for a common regulatory body - so instead of each country paying the full cost for their own bodies, they pay 1/28th of the cost for a common body. When the UK leaves with a hard Brexit, then these bodies will no longer represent the UK, so the UK will have to create its own in order to maintain the required standards. So all the savings we get from common bodies are lost and the UK tax payer has to foot the bill!


Yes, you're right that the money goes round to a certain extent, but very little of the money paid for public service jobs comes back to the exchequer, but rather lines the pockets of big businesses, many of which are international and if not, much of the profits are paid out in shareholder dividends which will in many cases be offshore and lost to the UK revenue. So in the end, any increase to public service costs will be bourne by the taxpayer. Sure, the majority of tax is paid by the rich, but a small tax increase hurts the poor the most.


As an example thats been in the press a lot, the EU open skies agreement forms a central regulatory body for air trafic control and air worthiness. Under international aviation laws, every country wishing to operate international flights must have a regulatory body which conforms to the international aviation standards. Any airlines operating out of that country are given their air worthiness approval from that body, so are the airports themselves controlled to meed international aviation standards. In the absence of a controling body, then it will not be possible airlines based in that country to operate international flights - That means BA, Virgin, EasyJet, RyanAir, FlyBe, Jet2 and a number of other smaller airlines will effectively be grounded until we establish our own regulatory authority which has gained international recognition (there is a complicated approval process that has to be met before gaining international recognition). The alternative is to stay in the EU Open Skies agreement, but that means we have to continue to pay the EU for the service, aviation disputes will be under the juristiction of the ECJ and in that area, we won't have taken back control!


Another case you may have heard a bit about is the Eurpean Medical Authority - currently based in the UK but now leaving (so thats UK jobs and tax revenue that will be lost). Part of thier job is to look at new medicines or medical procedures to determine if they are safe to be used on humans. A very complicated and expensive process with very serious implications for our healthcare. Currently, the very best medical researchers from across the EU work for the authority. When we leave, then we need to establish our own body which is essentially going to duplicate the work done by the EU body, all at our expense and we're not going to be able to attract the cream of the crop from across Europe any more. Also the Pharma lobby will be able to gain more influence over a smaller body representing a single country than a larger body representing 28 countries.


Its not a case of doom & gloom, but a case of looking at the reality rather than the glossy brochure (or bus) regarding Brexit. I can definitely see many benefits to Brexit, but those benefits are substantial to very rich people while being very costly to the poor. Your beloved Nigel Farage has played a blinder and convincing the British public that he's one of the people and doing himself out of a job, but in reality he's an extremely rich ex-banker who has many other income sources which make his salary from the EU look like small change - he's certainly not one of the poor people that's going to get hurt. Look at the other Hard-Line Brexit supporters - Reece-Mogg, Davies, Johnson, Gove, IDS - not one of them could be called a "man of the people" - They're all extremely rich toffs with many other business interests whose political life is little more than a hobby and exactly the ones who stand to gain the most from Brexit. They're the 1% who aren't going to go hungry with a little tax rise. There is a reason why the overwhelming majority of parliament didn't support brexit in the referendum and there is a commonality amongst the majority of Brexit supporers in parliament - they're all extremely rich elitists! (Discalimer: the politions who aren't the rich elite and supported Brexit are the Marxist/Communist types like Corbyn who envisage a very different socialist outcome from Brexit!)
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Old 15 March 2018, 02:39 PM   #2533  
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For the right reasons, quality of life is not always measured in pound notes
Absolutely true, but it helps!
Incidentally, the Happyness tables for 2018 are in, and out of the top 10, 4 countries (including #1) are full members of the EU and a further three are in the EU customs union! The top 6 places are all EU/Customs union countries. The UK just scrapes in the top 20 in 19th place, one place below the US! Sweden even manages 9th place despite having the highest rate of immigration vs population in the world!


So from that, I'd also conclude that quality of life does not require you "having control"! In fact, it would appear having a strong trading relationship with the EU generally helps!


It would appear the UK is doing something wrong that is perhaps not just down to immigration and EU membership!

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Old 15 March 2018, 03:37 PM   #2534  
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No, the standards haven't changed, but all of these standards require regulatory bodies to oversee the standards. In many cases, the UK doesn't have its own regulatory body, but instead, pools its resources with the other 27 EU countries for a common regulatory body - so instead of each country paying the full cost for their own bodies, they pay 1/28th of the cost for a common body. When the UK leaves with a hard Brexit, then these bodies will no longer represent the UK, so the UK will have to create its own in order to maintain the required standards. So all the savings we get from common bodies are lost and the UK tax payer has to foot the bill!


Yes, you're right that the money goes round to a certain extent, but very little of the money paid for public service jobs comes back to the exchequer, but rather lines the pockets of big businesses, many of which are international and if not, much of the profits are paid out in shareholder dividends which will in many cases be offshore and lost to the UK revenue. So in the end, any increase to public service costs will be bourne by the taxpayer. Sure, the majority of tax is paid by the rich, but a small tax increase hurts the poor the most.


As an example thats been in the press a lot, the EU open skies agreement forms a central regulatory body for air trafic control and air worthiness. Under international aviation laws, every country wishing to operate international flights must have a regulatory body which conforms to the international aviation standards. Any airlines operating out of that country are given their air worthiness approval from that body, so are the airports themselves controlled to meed international aviation standards. In the absence of a controling body, then it will not be possible airlines based in that country to operate international flights - That means BA, Virgin, EasyJet, RyanAir, FlyBe, Jet2 and a number of other smaller airlines will effectively be grounded until we establish our own regulatory authority which has gained international recognition (there is a complicated approval process that has to be met before gaining international recognition). The alternative is to stay in the EU Open Skies agreement, but that means we have to continue to pay the EU for the service, aviation disputes will be under the juristiction of the ECJ and in that area, we won't have taken back control!


Another case you may have heard a bit about is the Eurpean Medical Authority - currently based in the UK but now leaving (so thats UK jobs and tax revenue that will be lost). Part of thier job is to look at new medicines or medical procedures to determine if they are safe to be used on humans. A very complicated and expensive process with very serious implications for our healthcare. Currently, the very best medical researchers from across the EU work for the authority. When we leave, then we need to establish our own body which is essentially going to duplicate the work done by the EU body, all at our expense and we're not going to be able to attract the cream of the crop from across Europe any more. Also the Pharma lobby will be able to gain more influence over a smaller body representing a single country than a larger body representing 28 countries.


Its not a case of doom & gloom, but a case of looking at the reality rather than the glossy brochure (or bus) regarding Brexit. I can definitely see many benefits to Brexit, but those benefits are substantial to very rich people while being very costly to the poor. Your beloved Nigel Farage has played a blinder and convincing the British public that he's one of the people and doing himself out of a job, but in reality he's an extremely rich ex-banker who has many other income sources which make his salary from the EU look like small change - he's certainly not one of the poor people that's going to get hurt. Look at the other Hard-Line Brexit supporters - Reece-Mogg, Davies, Johnson, Gove, IDS - not one of them could be called a "man of the people" - They're all extremely rich toffs with many other business interests whose political life is little more than a hobby and exactly the ones who stand to gain the most from Brexit. They're the 1% who aren't going to go hungry with a little tax rise. There is a reason why the overwhelming majority of parliament didn't support brexit in the referendum and there is a commonality amongst the majority of Brexit supporers in parliament - they're all extremely rich elitists! (Discalimer: the politions who aren't the rich elite and supported Brexit are the Marxist/Communist types like Corbyn who envisage a very different socialist outcome from Brexit!)

good post that
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Old 20 March 2018, 01:02 PM   #2535  
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So we, on doorstep Europe may need visas, where's half way across world they won't


https://m.traveller24.com/TravelPlan...-rise-20160930
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Old 20 March 2018, 08:57 PM   #2536  
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I wonder what role Cambridge Analytica played in the Brexit referendum?
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Old 20 March 2018, 09:36 PM   #2537  
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As well said as ever, @BMWhere.

This country has many problems but there’s not one single one that’s going to be fixed by Brexit.
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Old 21 March 2018, 02:12 PM   #2538  
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I wonder what role Cambridge Analytica played in the Brexit referendum?


If they were pro EU, then whatever role they played was ineffective.
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Old 21 March 2018, 03:43 PM   #2539  
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I wonder what role Cambridge Analytica played in the Brexit referendum?
A few long reads:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...it-vote-leave/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ng-Brexit.html

https://www.theguardian.com/technolo...cked-democracy
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Old 21 March 2018, 04:28 PM   #2540  
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Thanks for this.

kind of what I expected, and very troubling.

Our democracy has indeed been hacked.
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Old 21 March 2018, 04:41 PM   #2541  
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Brexit aside, we as consumers of social media need to act more responsibly.

People that blindly 'share' propaganda on FB just because it happens to be what they want to be true are active participants in subverting our democratic process. Never ever 'share' anything unless you've research the facts and the source (NEWSFLASH more often than not it's will turn out to be a lie, totally inaccurate or a half truth, and from a source pushing an pernicious agenda), otherwise you're just a useful idiot IMO.

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Old 21 March 2018, 05:17 PM   #2542  
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Brexit aside, we as consumers of social media need to act more responsibly.

People that blindly 'share' propaganda on FB just because it happens to be what they want to be true are active participants in subverting our democratic process. Never ever 'share' anything unless you've research the facts and the source (NEWSFLASH more often than not it's will turn out to be a lie, totally inaccurate or a half truth, and from a source pushing an pernicious agenda), otherwise you're just a useful idiot IMO.
Quite. We’re in an odd time where reality and truth is being twisted and bent and subverted. There will be a painful correction.
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Old 21 March 2018, 05:48 PM   #2543  
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Brexit aside, we as consumers of social media need to act more responsibly.

People that blindly 'share' propaganda on FB just because it happens to be what they want to be true are active participants in subverting our democratic process. Never ever 'share' anything unless you've research the facts and the source (NEWSFLASH more often than not it's will turn out to be a lie, totally inaccurate or a half truth, and from a source pushing an pernicious agenda), otherwise you're just a useful idiot IMO.
Or alternatively, go on a crash diet and start living our lives in the real world again.
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Old 21 March 2018, 06:23 PM   #2544  
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Or alternatively, go on a crash diet and start living our lives in the real world again.
Who will watch the watchmen?
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Old 21 March 2018, 06:30 PM   #2545  
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Who will watch the watchmen?
Is there really no other way of watching than via social media?
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Old 21 March 2018, 06:43 PM   #2546  
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Is there really no other way of watching than via social media?
Truth tellers have a duty to be in and amongst the darkness. If the Martins and Marks of this world opt-out of the most powerful propaganda vehicle said world has ever seen, they aid and abet a victory for the fraudsters and tricksters and the outright malevolent. We must do our bit for the short time we’re here.
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Old 21 March 2018, 07:45 PM   #2547  
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Thanks for this.

kind of what I expected, and very troubling.

Our democracy has indeed been hacked.
but this is quite old news tbh


Carole Cadwalladr from the Guardian has been writing about this for well over a year

and anyone who has followed the Climate Change debate for the last 10 to 15 years has been aware of these shadowy right wing think tanks and astro turfing organisations - same actors in the Brexit debate, same links to the US (Atlantic Bridge) often from the same offices
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Old 21 March 2018, 08:14 PM   #2548  
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but this is quite old news tbh


Carole Cadwalladr from the Guardian has been writing about this for well over a year

and anyone who has followed the Climate Change debate for the last 10 to 15 years has been aware of these shadowy right wing think tanks and astro turfing organisations - same actors in the Brexit debate, same links to the US (Atlantic Bridge) often from the same offices

I'd say it's older news than that, indeed the climate arguments is another good example. The reasoning why I never really took to FB and Twitter was partly due to the targeted feeds which struck to me as odd, hard to explain but when things pop up in a feed, I questioned why was it there and why it seemed to target me in terms of relevance.

The current media bandwagon are using this no-s*it-Sherlock news that this happening is the sole reasoning for the US election and UK referendum result. A lot so far, including the above links is speculative and merely suggests it having influence. It's blissfully ignorant to think if one side is doing it that the opposing side isn't. Of course they were/are, just their methods didn't get the wanted result: Clinton, Remain, hell even Corbyn, with him sitting on the floor of a train! Any "viral" campaign is guilty of this, be it via social media or merely a skewed sensationslist tabloid front page.

Then after all this, what % of the total population is influenced? Is the majority really that stupid? No, there are plenty of "sheeple", but are they so vacuous between the ears not filter through what is nonsense and fact?

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Old 21 March 2018, 08:19 PM   #2549  
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I'd say it's older news than that, indeed the climate arguments is another good example. The reasoning why I never really took to FB and Twitter was partly due targeted feeds struck me as odd, hard to explain but when things pop up in a feed, I questioned why was it there and why it seemed to target me in terms of relevance.

The current media bandwagon are using this no-s*it-Sherlock news that this happening is the sole reasoning for the US election and UK referendum result. A lot so far, including the above links is speculative and merely suggests it having influence. It's blissfully ignorant to think if one side is doing it that the opposing side isn't. Of course they were/are, just their methods didn't get the wanted result: Clinton, Remain, hell even Corbyn, with him sitting on the floor of a train! Any "viral" campaign is guilty of this, be it via social media or merely a skewed sensationslist tabloid front page.

Then after all this, what % of the total population is influenced? Is the majority really that stupid? No, there are plenty of "sheeple", but are they so vacuous between the ears not filter through what is nonsense and fact?
In the US it only takes a relatively small number of swing voters in swing states to win an election.

Brexit was won by a small margin, so yes it can make a difference.

That said, both sides will do it.And no doubt will get better at it,. Then we have a propaganda arms race being fought by shadowy, unaccountable organisation, prone to influence from elements that mean us no good.
Should the battle of ideas really be won with lies and deceit?

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Old 21 March 2018, 08:30 PM   #2550  
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Originally Posted by JTaylor View Post
Truth tellers have a duty to be in and amongst the darkness. If the Martins and Marks of this world opt-out of the most powerful propaganda vehicle said world has ever seen, they aid and abet a victory for the fraudsters and tricksters and the outright malevolent. We must do our bit for the short time we’re here.
To opt out, one would have to opt in, in a first instance, which I've never bothered to do
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