So Brexit seems to be a good thing then.
23 November 2016, 06:30 PM
#421
Indeed. But far too many people seem to have voted to leave the EU thinking it's an evil empire, when the real cause of their dissatisfaction lay elsewhere. Years of being drip-fed lies and propaganda by media barons who don't even live here or pay taxes, who will most likely be the only beneficiaries of brexit, has meant that some people have been convinced that everything is the EU's fault. In short, they've been hoodwinked. Stitched up. Like a 'kipper......
23 November 2016, 06:48 PM
#422
Its perfectly possible we will get the same boost from the EU if they grow up a little and realise it will have an adverse effect on their members if they don't, there certainly seems to be some scaremongering in that sense too.
Those that voted remain want to believe we are doomed. It's not helped by the wave upon wave of doom propaganda. The remainers think the brexiteers were duped by propaganda.
It is literally going round in circles about something none us know the outcome of
.
23 November 2016, 07:24 PM
#423
Do you think the EU invests in us what we invest in them?. If so, how do you believe they invest in countries that do not pay into the EU?.
You don't need to know the ins and outs of EU directives, its simple maths. It's all well and good bringing up the investments the EU make to help the UK, but it pales in comparison to what we pay in.
We pay x amount to help other EU countries. This is the EU's unrealistic ideology of a level playing field. Help industry and development in countries of a lesser economy and take more from strong economies than they give back.
However you want to dress it up in terms of investment we get less than we put in.
Free movement of people only works once the level playing field is level. It's doesn't take a genius to work out that if one economy is doing better than another, that economy will lure people from countries of lesser economies.
We cannot grow in the long term if we are to fit in with the ideology that a lesser economy needs to meet ours.
Do you think with this apparent 'growth in the UK' what we are expected to pay into the EU will rise or fall?.
It would have cost us more, we'd probably get even less invested as we're 'doing well' and there wouldn't be a damn thing we could do about it as I very much doubt a second referendum would be on the cards for a very long time.
You don't need to know the ins and outs of EU directives, its simple maths. It's all well and good bringing up the investments the EU make to help the UK, but it pales in comparison to what we pay in.
We pay x amount to help other EU countries. This is the EU's unrealistic ideology of a level playing field. Help industry and development in countries of a lesser economy and take more from strong economies than they give back.
However you want to dress it up in terms of investment we get less than we put in.
Free movement of people only works once the level playing field is level. It's doesn't take a genius to work out that if one economy is doing better than another, that economy will lure people from countries of lesser economies.
We cannot grow in the long term if we are to fit in with the ideology that a lesser economy needs to meet ours.
Do you think with this apparent 'growth in the UK' what we are expected to pay into the EU will rise or fall?.
It would have cost us more, we'd probably get even less invested as we're 'doing well' and there wouldn't be a damn thing we could do about it as I very much doubt a second referendum would be on the cards for a very long time.
23 November 2016, 07:39 PM
#424
Kwik, don't you look at people like BMWhere, Hodgy, Sad Weevil, Geezer, Jonc, Markjmd and others and think that they must be on to something? You're on the same team as Alcazar and The Trooper who, to my mind at least, seem to spend their time on this board specialising in being wrong. Lovely lads, I'm sure, but wrong about almost everything. Do alarm bells not ring? Is it like a game of poker where you're so committed to a hand that's absolutely bound to lose that you're somehow compelled to keep going? Why not just cough up, eh? You'll feel better for it.
what's fascinating is the denial, you see it alot debating CT'ers of all persuasions, from flat earther's (yes a lot of it about) to 911 twoofers and climate change "hoaxers"
the more actual facts and evidence you present the deeper they actually go
it's actually a weirdly rational position to take as they have invested so much emotional energy in their position - the "belief" becomes unshakable
the more actual facts and evidence you present the deeper they actually go
it's actually a weirdly rational position to take as they have invested so much emotional energy in their position - the "belief" becomes unshakable
23 November 2016, 07:40 PM
#425
Indeed. But far too many people seem to have voted to leave the EU thinking it's an evil empire, when the real cause of their dissatisfaction lay elsewhere. Years of being drip-fed lies and propaganda by media barons who don't even live here or pay taxes, who will most likely be the only beneficiaries of brexit, has meant that some people have been convinced that everything is the EU's fault. In short, they've been hoodwinked. Stitched up. Like a 'kipper......
23 November 2016, 08:28 PM
#427
Scooby Senior
But if it's **** poor in the first place why add strain to it. Free movement of people puts strain on a system you admit is a disaster.
I really don't understand how you can say 'the uk should invest in education' whilst we give money to the EU for them to invest in ANOTHER country.
That 1% is still £8bn and with wise investment that £8bn can go along way. That £85bn should be spent in a better fashion.
And yes I agree the rich are taxed to a lesser extent to the poor, but it doesn't mean throwing £4bn to other economies is a good idea.
However you want to dress it up the simple standpoint is we give money to the EU for them to help countries that don't pay into it, and my children's education is gambled because his/her place was taken by someone from the very same country that doesn't contribute and we pay the EU to help. You may then start to understand the frustration of the average brexiteer.
If anyone truly believes that we should live by this ideology of sharing and helping others at our expense, that 'birth rights' are ridiculous, and that we should suffer to help others then let's do an experiment.
Everyone put up a picture of your last p60. We will then work out an average and all of us pay in so we are all on a level playing field? No? Didn't think so.
I really don't understand how you can say 'the uk should invest in education' whilst we give money to the EU for them to invest in ANOTHER country.
That 1% is still £8bn and with wise investment that £8bn can go along way. That £85bn should be spent in a better fashion.
And yes I agree the rich are taxed to a lesser extent to the poor, but it doesn't mean throwing £4bn to other economies is a good idea.
However you want to dress it up the simple standpoint is we give money to the EU for them to help countries that don't pay into it, and my children's education is gambled because his/her place was taken by someone from the very same country that doesn't contribute and we pay the EU to help. You may then start to understand the frustration of the average brexiteer.
If anyone truly believes that we should live by this ideology of sharing and helping others at our expense, that 'birth rights' are ridiculous, and that we should suffer to help others then let's do an experiment.
Everyone put up a picture of your last p60. We will then work out an average and all of us pay in so we are all on a level playing field? No? Didn't think so
.You also assume that all of that £8bn is just free to spend on whatever we want. Firstly, we've created a whole new Whitehall ministry for Brexit which will no doubt suck up a vast amount of that £8bn. Then we need a whole new trade ministry to negotiate all these magic trade deals that we're going to get. There goes another massive amount. Then if we want any sort of deal with the EU, we're going to still have to contribute a membership fee, just like Norway or Switzerland do and it won't be much less than the £8bn we already contribute. So before you even start to distribute those funds elsewhere, you've already spent more than it was costing in the first place. Then there is the fact that Brexit has already cost us £220bm (see my earlier post regarding todays Autumn statement).
Then there are all these mystical trade deals. Trade deals don't happen over night, they take typically 7 to 8 years to negotiate and also cost a fortune thanks to that new Whitehall trade department. You also can't generally negotiate deals in parallel (unless you're a really huge economy like China or the EU), partly because you simply don't have the resources, and partly because the people you are negotiating with want to see the results of your other trade deals before they start their negotiations. Then there is the fact that no trade deal ever results in a fully open tariff free market like we have with the EU - The EU free trade area is totally unique amongst trade agreements and its why we need the political union of the EU to make it work! Finally, we can only really negotiate trade deals in our benefit with smaller economies than our own. With any bigger economies than ours we will always have to give more than what we're getting. Take the Swiss deal with China - China gets instant access to the Swiss market while Switzerland has to wait 10 years to gain any access to the Chinese market. In 10 years time, the Chinese may just cancel the trade agreement - just look at Trumps plan to cancel the Trans-Pacific trade deal.
You have a very simplistic view that the EU just costs lots, so simples, we leave the EU and just spend that money to fix all the problems, but nothing is ever that simple. You have to look at the big picture and then you can see that Brexit just doesn't add up! The costs are far greater than the savings and its only going to leave the poor even worse off than they already are!
23 November 2016, 08:42 PM
#429
Its not an EU problem at all, its 100% a UK problem! Taking 8bn from the EU membership fee may be your idea of a solution, but its definitely not the cause of the problem!
The UK spends £12.2bn a year on foreign aid! We spend £34bn a year on debt interest! There are other ways to recover much more than £8bn to finance education or whatever else you want to finance. Leaving the EU to gain £8bn a year is a pretty drastic and extremely risky way to gain, what is in the grand scheme of things, a very little amount!
You also assume that all of that £8bn is just free to spend on whatever we want. Firstly, we've created a whole new Whitehall ministry for Brexit which will no doubt suck up a vast amount of that £8bn. Then we need a whole new trade ministry to negotiate all these magic trade deals that we're going to get. There goes another massive amount. Then if we want any sort of deal with the EU, we're going to still have to contribute a membership fee, just like Norway or Switzerland do and it won't be much less than the £8bn we already contribute. So before you even start to distribute those funds elsewhere, you've already spent more than it was costing in the first place. Then there is the fact that Brexit has already cost us £220bm (see my earlier post regarding todays Autumn statement).
Then there are all these mystical trade deals. Trade deals don't happen over night, they take typically 7 to 8 years to negotiate and also cost a fortune thanks to that new Whitehall trade department. You also can't generally negotiate deals in parallel (unless you're a really huge economy like China or the EU), partly because you simply don't have the resources, and partly because the people you are negotiating with want to see the results of your other trade deals before they start their negotiations. Then there is the fact that no trade deal ever results in a fully open tariff free market like we have with the EU - The EU free trade area is totally unique amongst trade agreements and its why we need the political union of the EU to make it work! Finally, we can only really negotiate trade deals in our benefit with smaller economies than our own. With any bigger economies than ours we will always have to give more than what we're getting. Take the Swiss deal with China - China gets instant access to the Swiss market while Switzerland has to wait 10 years to gain any access to the Chinese market. In 10 years time, the Chinese may just cancel the trade agreement - just look at Trumps plan to cancel the Trans-Pacific trade deal.
You have a very simplistic view that the EU just costs lots, so simples, we leave the EU and just spend that money to fix all the problems, but nothing is ever that simple. You have to look at the big picture and then you can see that Brexit just doesn't add up! The costs are far greater than the savings and its only going to leave the poor even worse off than they already are!
The UK spends £12.2bn a year on foreign aid! We spend £34bn a year on debt interest! There are other ways to recover much more than £8bn to finance education or whatever else you want to finance. Leaving the EU to gain £8bn a year is a pretty drastic and extremely risky way to gain, what is in the grand scheme of things, a very little amount!
You also assume that all of that £8bn is just free to spend on whatever we want. Firstly, we've created a whole new Whitehall ministry for Brexit which will no doubt suck up a vast amount of that £8bn. Then we need a whole new trade ministry to negotiate all these magic trade deals that we're going to get. There goes another massive amount. Then if we want any sort of deal with the EU, we're going to still have to contribute a membership fee, just like Norway or Switzerland do and it won't be much less than the £8bn we already contribute. So before you even start to distribute those funds elsewhere, you've already spent more than it was costing in the first place. Then there is the fact that Brexit has already cost us £220bm (see my earlier post regarding todays Autumn statement).
Then there are all these mystical trade deals. Trade deals don't happen over night, they take typically 7 to 8 years to negotiate and also cost a fortune thanks to that new Whitehall trade department. You also can't generally negotiate deals in parallel (unless you're a really huge economy like China or the EU), partly because you simply don't have the resources, and partly because the people you are negotiating with want to see the results of your other trade deals before they start their negotiations. Then there is the fact that no trade deal ever results in a fully open tariff free market like we have with the EU - The EU free trade area is totally unique amongst trade agreements and its why we need the political union of the EU to make it work! Finally, we can only really negotiate trade deals in our benefit with smaller economies than our own. With any bigger economies than ours we will always have to give more than what we're getting. Take the Swiss deal with China - China gets instant access to the Swiss market while Switzerland has to wait 10 years to gain any access to the Chinese market. In 10 years time, the Chinese may just cancel the trade agreement - just look at Trumps plan to cancel the Trans-Pacific trade deal.
You have a very simplistic view that the EU just costs lots, so simples, we leave the EU and just spend that money to fix all the problems, but nothing is ever that simple. You have to look at the big picture and then you can see that Brexit just doesn't add up! The costs are far greater than the savings and its only going to leave the poor even worse off than they already are!
23 November 2016, 08:44 PM
#430
Scooby Regular
Indeed. But far too many people seem to have voted to leave the EU thinking it's an evil empire, when the real cause of their dissatisfaction lay elsewhere. Years of being drip-fed lies and propaganda by media barons who don't even live here or pay taxes, who will most likely be the only beneficiaries of brexit, has meant that some people have been convinced that everything is the EU's fault. In short, they've been hoodwinked. Stitched up. Like a 'kipper......
The subject of whether he should pay any inheritance tax was never really mentioned
Everyone naturally and probably correctly assumed it was all held off shore yada yada yada and out of reach of HMRC
It was as if even mentioning would have been rude!!!!!
23 November 2016, 08:51 PM
#431
Scooby Regular
Then there is the fact that no trade deal ever results in a fully open tariff free market like we have with the EU - The EU free trade area is totally unique amongst trade agreements and its why we need the political union of the EU to make it work! nonsense the company i work for is pan european if there are not trade tax's/ deals could you please explain why a bearing i bought from germany on monday cost's 19.81 euros and is made in germany, the uk stock price is £11.22 after being shipped to the uk, sadly there was no uk stock available.
23 November 2016, 09:31 PM
#432
Scooby Senior
Then there is the fact that no trade deal ever results in a fully open tariff free market like we have with the EU - The EU free trade area is totally unique amongst trade agreements and its why we need the political union of the EU to make it work! nonsense the company i work for is pan european if there are not trade tax's/ deals could you please explain why a bearing i bought from germany on monday cost's 19.81 euros and is made in germany, the uk stock price is £11.22 after being shipped to the uk, sadly there was no uk stock available.
They may also not have priced in the fall in the value of the £ on the UK price, particularly given they are out of stock in the UK. When they re-stock you may find the UK price increases.
As an EU member you are free to buy from any other EU state and the goods can be shipped directly to you without having to pass through customs & excise and with no additional taxes to pay on import. You are always free to look around the whole EU for the cheapest prices and that's the price you pay, no additional tariffs or taxes to calculate.
Here's a good tip for you - visit other EU amazon domains (amazon.de, amazon.fr, amazon.es etc.) you can log in with the same username and most companies on marketplace will ship internationally. Check the price variations you get and you can buy from the cheapest country and save a fortune. Don't worry about the language, the buying process is the same in each country, so you can fumble your way through without understanding a word and actually most domains now allow you to set the language to English! This is another great benefit to the consumer of the Euro currency as there are no exchange rates to calculate!
Although maybe I'm too late with this tip now the £ is worth f-all!
23 November 2016, 09:41 PM
#433
nonsense the company i work for is pan european if there are not trade tax's/ deals could you please explain why a bearing i bought from germany on monday cost's 19.81 euros and is made in germany, the uk stock price is £11.22 after being shipped to the uk, sadly there was no uk stock available.
-the pound is a lot weaker now
-economies of scale for UK stock ie, lower costs spread due to bulk
-going on from the point above, costs will be proportionately higher for individual or small number items
-different supplier
The cost for new UK stock may now start to rise due currency exchange as it has done in other sectors.
Last edited by jonc; 23 November 2016 at 09:43 PM. Reason: BMWhere beat me to it!
24 November 2016, 12:10 AM
#435
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Look it up. You'll find many sources quoting the eu as being either the slowest or 2nd slowest economy in the world. Some claim the eu were the worst, some say that was up until 2014 until other economies went into recession.
http://theconversation.com/fact-check-does-only-the-economy-of-antarctica-grow-slower-than-the-eus-61235
I've put up some of the problems I have with the EU. I've said that already and you've angrily ignored it.
£8bn AFTER rebates. That is taken from a remain source, not a brexit one. Brexit claimed higher, remain say its 'only' £8bn.
Now I very much doubt you've struggled to get your child into a school. I have had 2 unsuccessful appeals for my 2 youngest children aged 10 and 5.
My 10 yr old lad after appeal was given a 4th place or recommended option.
Luckily in the very well to do area of where I live most residents opted for a certain school in their catchment because of a headmaster with a very good reputation.
At the very start of my sons school life the same headmaster switched to his school. It was a long commute for us, our catchment school was in the next road to us, we didn't win the appeal. We were just told that there had been many applicants. We also found out later that successful applicants had used friends and families addresses to get into catchment. Most of the intake that year were non UK residents.
So we moved closer to my sons school. We were out of catchment as the area doesn't have social housing, rent is well above £1k per month for a flat and house prices there are £350k+ for small, thrown together houses.
When we applied for my daughter we were again given a 4th option, which is 6 miles from my sons school.
As I said my town is relatively industrious. Going from one side of town to another at 8am would take at least an hour. Neither school offered pre school clubs.
The appeal process was even more stressful this time. Our MP actually wrote back to say he 'couldn't get involved'.
The appeal board approached us and asked us to make statements as they had been advised false addresses had been given. We declined. They admitted the electoral role they used for catchment assignment was easily manipulated.
We sought our own solution. We found a brand new school on the other side of town, in an industrial estate. It had no class rooms, classes were separated with curtains and had barely any teachers. The school run takes us an hour now, it has pre school clubs so we chose it.
The new year at my sons school which my daughter would have attended is mostly non uk migrant children.
Catchment and sibling selection was recently voted on by my local governors. The vote was a tie. When asked why they then sided with catchment the appeal panel didn't know. Needless to say the appeal panel were mid fifties, upper class and well dressed and had a plethera of company cars.
£8bn would be a ridiculous boost to education. I'm not saying that's where it would go, but I'm certainly not voting to give that money elsewhere so an english child is shoved out of the way in favour of a migrant.
That's just one aspect I've rattled on about. There is certainly more where that came from. And you'll notice that it's from my personal experience, not what the BBC told me.
You'll not be surprised to find that my town voted for brexit. At the time some local websites were touting far far more than any right wing. I was actually shocked that local people voted in that way, although every local person I spoke to was voting Brexit.
I'd add that my problem wasn't just with the EU, it stems also from the UK's complete inability to police policies which they not only enforce but abide by.
I have quite open conversations with friends from EU countries living in the U.K. My children's school situation is still ongoing and they agree it is disgusting. They tell me the UK is a joke. It is here for the taking and one hand does not know what the other is doing, and they are correct.
If you want any more examples let me know
http://theconversation.com/fact-check-does-only-the-economy-of-antarctica-grow-slower-than-the-eus-61235
I've put up some of the problems I have with the EU. I've said that already and you've angrily ignored it.
£8bn AFTER rebates. That is taken from a remain source, not a brexit one. Brexit claimed higher, remain say its 'only' £8bn.
Now I very much doubt you've struggled to get your child into a school. I have had 2 unsuccessful appeals for my 2 youngest children aged 10 and 5.
My 10 yr old lad after appeal was given a 4th place or recommended option.
Luckily in the very well to do area of where I live most residents opted for a certain school in their catchment because of a headmaster with a very good reputation.
At the very start of my sons school life the same headmaster switched to his school. It was a long commute for us, our catchment school was in the next road to us, we didn't win the appeal. We were just told that there had been many applicants. We also found out later that successful applicants had used friends and families addresses to get into catchment. Most of the intake that year were non UK residents.
So we moved closer to my sons school. We were out of catchment as the area doesn't have social housing, rent is well above £1k per month for a flat and house prices there are £350k+ for small, thrown together houses.
When we applied for my daughter we were again given a 4th option, which is 6 miles from my sons school.
As I said my town is relatively industrious. Going from one side of town to another at 8am would take at least an hour. Neither school offered pre school clubs.
The appeal process was even more stressful this time. Our MP actually wrote back to say he 'couldn't get involved'.
The appeal board approached us and asked us to make statements as they had been advised false addresses had been given. We declined. They admitted the electoral role they used for catchment assignment was easily manipulated.
We sought our own solution. We found a brand new school on the other side of town, in an industrial estate. It had no class rooms, classes were separated with curtains and had barely any teachers. The school run takes us an hour now, it has pre school clubs so we chose it.
The new year at my sons school which my daughter would have attended is mostly non uk migrant children.
Catchment and sibling selection was recently voted on by my local governors. The vote was a tie. When asked why they then sided with catchment the appeal panel didn't know. Needless to say the appeal panel were mid fifties, upper class and well dressed and had a plethera of company cars.
£8bn would be a ridiculous boost to education. I'm not saying that's where it would go, but I'm certainly not voting to give that money elsewhere so an english child is shoved out of the way in favour of a migrant.
That's just one aspect I've rattled on about. There is certainly more where that came from. And you'll notice that it's from my personal experience, not what the BBC told me.
You'll not be surprised to find that my town voted for brexit. At the time some local websites were touting far far more than any right wing. I was actually shocked that local people voted in that way, although every local person I spoke to was voting Brexit.
I'd add that my problem wasn't just with the EU, it stems also from the UK's complete inability to police policies which they not only enforce but abide by.
I have quite open conversations with friends from EU countries living in the U.K. My children's school situation is still ongoing and they agree it is disgusting. They tell me the UK is a joke. It is here for the taking and one hand does not know what the other is doing, and they are correct.
If you want any more examples let me know
Given that you couldn't get that bit right I couldn't be bothered to read the rest.
24 November 2016, 02:11 AM
#436
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I don't know . Looks to be doing pretty good in this article
https://www.thebalance.com/world-s-l...conomy-3306044
https://www.thebalance.com/world-s-l...conomy-3306044
Last edited by dpb; 24 November 2016 at 02:13 AM.
24 November 2016, 09:39 AM
#439
Scooby Senior
I can't believe they're still going through with this bull****, one of them needs to grow some ***** go against "the willl of the people" and admit that it's a compete **** up that shouldn't have happened. Yes, there will be a different group of angry people, about the same number perhaps but at least we won't be ****ing our own **** any more.
24 November 2016, 10:14 AM
#441
I can't believe they're still going through with this bull****, one of them needs to grow some ***** go against "the willl of the people" and admit that it's a compete **** up that shouldn't have happened. Yes, there will be a different group of angry people, about the same number perhaps but at least we won't be ****ing our own **** any more.
There is hope for you.
24 November 2016, 10:25 AM
#442
Scooby Senior
I can't believe they're still going through with this bull****, one of them needs to grow some ***** go against "the willl of the people" and admit that it's a compete **** up that shouldn't have happened. Yes, there will be a different group of angry people, about the same number perhaps but at least we won't be ****ing our own **** any more.
Maybe they're waiting until the poor are really suffering so they can say "Its your fault, you wanted brexit, we're just doing what you wanted!", then they will accept remaining without protest!
They say they will envoke article 50 in the spring, just long enough for the pain to set in before they U-turn!
But, knowing politicians, none of them probably have the ***** to do that!
24 November 2016, 10:27 AM
#443
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I can't believe they're still going through with this bull****, one of them needs to grow some ***** go against "the willl of the people" and admit that it's a compete **** up that shouldn't have happened. Yes, there will be a different group of angry people, about the same number perhaps but at least we won't be ****ing our own **** any more.
24 November 2016, 11:33 AM
#445
Scooby Regular
I keep thinking along similar lines. I wish the Queen (if we ignore the Mail and the Sun who claim her as a Brexiter) would pull rank and tell Westminster to get us back in the club. I could put up with the uproar and assault on democracy (whatever that is) and being regarded smugly by our continental cousins; it'd all be worth it.
it explains the situation where the looming disaster is becoming clear and the "captain" is not taking the correct steps to avoid it
It raised its head in the airline industry - several accidents in the 70's were put down to pilot error
but further investigations into these showed that often the cabin crew where aware of the problems and the captains lack of adequate response and corrective actions - and their collective failure to challenge the captain was a contributory factor in the final usually disastrous outcome
the famous one was the Tenerife Disaster
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenerife_airport_disaster
this lead to all airlines implementing something called Crew resource management
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crew_resource_management
essentially this is all about empowering the crew to challenge the actions of the captain and also training the captain to accept valid criticism of his/her actions in recognising and averting a looming disaster
interesting the subtext behind the recent legal ruling should be seen in these terms
Last edited by hodgy0_2; 24 November 2016 at 11:48 AM.
24 November 2016, 11:49 AM
#447
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It is a well know phenomena called something like the "captains paradox"
it explains the situation where the looming disaster is becoming clear and the "captain" is not taking the correct steps to avoid it
It raised its head in the airline industry - several accidents in the 70's were put down to pilot error
but further investigations into these showed that often the cabin crew where aware of the problems and the captains lack of adequate response and corrective actions - and their collective failure to challenge the captain was a contributory factor in the final usually disastrous outcome
the famous one was the Tenerife Disaster
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenerife_airport_disaster
this lead to all airlines implementing something called Crew resource management
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crew_resource_management
essentially this is all about empowering the crew to challenge the actions of the captain and also training the captain to accept valid criticism of his/her actions in recognising and averting a looming disaster
interesting the subtext behind the recent legal ruling should be seen in these terms
it explains the situation where the looming disaster is becoming clear and the "captain" is not taking the correct steps to avoid it
It raised its head in the airline industry - several accidents in the 70's were put down to pilot error
but further investigations into these showed that often the cabin crew where aware of the problems and the captains lack of adequate response and corrective actions - and their collective failure to challenge the captain was a contributory factor in the final usually disastrous outcome
the famous one was the Tenerife Disaster
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenerife_airport_disaster
this lead to all airlines implementing something called Crew resource management
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crew_resource_management
essentially this is all about empowering the crew to challenge the actions of the captain and also training the captain to accept valid criticism of his/her actions in recognising and averting a looming disaster
interesting the subtext behind the recent legal ruling should be seen in these terms
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/s...20161124117827
24 November 2016, 12:01 PM
#448
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24 November 2016, 12:37 PM
#450
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iTrader: (41)
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: in the woods...........555 Wagon Sqn
Posts: 13,347
Received 55 Likes
on
42 Posts
Terribly frustrating! Anyway, this cheered me up:
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/s...20161124117827
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/s...20161124117827
very good...but does not apply to alcazar; his pint glass has been smashed to smithereens