BMWhere?

A very vague answer! Which rules and regulation exactly have **** you over? How exactly have they impacted on your life for the worse?

Which rules have the EU failed to police? Is it not the responsibility of each country to police the rules anyway? The EU can only 'police' the laws that a country brings in to ensure they conform to the EU directives! Which countries are flouting them and in what way?

Its important to remember that the EU does not create laws, only directives which must be implemented by each member by appropriate laws and regulations which must meet or exceed the requirements of the directive.

Health and safefy laws are a classic example, where the UK laws go over and above those mandated in the EU directive. When you go to other EU countries it often looks like they are ignoring or "flouting" H&S rules, but in reality they are working exactly to the H&S rules in their country, which meet but perhaps don't exceed the EU directive rules.

jonc

The poor man on the street who voted for "change" is set to get poorer due to Brexit as inflation is set to rise.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38074616

The Trooper 1815

iTrader: (31)

You really are a deluded fuc*wit, Walter Mitty who as been exposed so many times I wonder how you can even bother to post any more!

And that's from a brain dead idiot you spineless ****.

JTaylor

How surprising.

The Trooper 1815

iTrader: (31)

How about the Irish and Danish votes agianst the EU that they forced overturns or second votes on because they did not like the results?

The fact that the "wonderful" EU is beginning to turn in on itself because the people are fed up of their current policies and dictates.

The juggernaut that is the EU bureaucracy that insists on two centres of power, Strasborg and Brussels.

Trading tariffs on UK Commonwealth countries which have been forced upon us, the UK!!!!!

I remember when we voted into the EEC as it was. That was about trade not law making, not enforced open borders (I know we are not in Shengen), not about a central federalised UK.

And we now find ourselves in a failing economic region.

Hmmmmm.

hodgy0_2

the Danish vote is an interesting one

Boris Johnson who spent 5 happy years spreading rubbish about the EU (he finally got sacked from the Telegraph for dishonesty) made up some crap about Delors and he imminent plan to "rule Europe"


"Then came the biggest whopper of all: “Delors plan to rule Europe” ran a front-page headline in the Sunday Telegraph in May 1992, just ahead of the Danish referendum on the Maastricht treaty. Nobody could follow that except to say it was untrue, and based on thin ideas floated at a casual briefing, but denials came too late for Danish voters, who said “no”. Many attribute that to Johnson’s story."


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...-downfall.html

"All journalists probably delude themselves that they may have influenced the history they are paid to observe; that their butterfly-flap triggered the storm. My boast, and I make it in the confidence that no one gives a monkey's, is that I probably did contribute to the Danish rejection of Maastricht. It was May 2, 1992, and I was at one of those agreeable jaunts that punctuate the life of the Brussels correspondent: an informal meeting of foreign ministers at a scenic place called Guimaraes in Portugal. I remember going to a payphone at teatime that Saturday, standing in the dusty square and ringing Frank Taylor, the foreign editor of the Telegraph, to find out what had happened to my story. I thought it was quite good stuff, all about plans being incubated by Delors to create a European President, and centralise yet more power in Brussels, once the Maastricht treaty had been ratified. Frank thought it positively tremendous."

maybe the Danes simply saw through the bullsh1t

dpb

So that geezer on here running burger joint at fairs might got it wrong ?!

Scoobywont , I think

BMWhere?

You mean they rejected the bill, the bill was re-written to accommodate their issues, and the bill was passed on the 2nd vote. This is the normal domocratic process and happens every day in the House of Commons. Draft bill get rejected in the commons, re-formulated then passed by the commons only to be rejected by the Lords etc. The Commons can even re-subit the same bill to the Lords without change if they want. Nothing has been forced on anyone, the EU has no power to do so!

This is just wishfull thinking from the Brexit supporters. There is no anti EU backlash across Europe other than a few minor right wing movements which get over-reported by anti EU British press! AfD is a classic example of this, yes they've had some minor success in local elections but zero success in national polling. For every protester on Afd marches there are 100 or so anti AfD protesters turn out for a counter protest.

I'll give you this one - its one of the most rediculous wastes of money in the EU. But its wrong to say that the EU insists on this, they never wanted it in the first place and nobody inside the EU wants it now. This all came about because France wanted some notion of prestige of having the EU within France. Its also France which is blocking any change.


There has never been a commonwealth free trade area. There were preferential trading deals within the British empire but they mostly dissapeared after WWII and as former colonies became independent. The EU only requires that we have a common trading tariffs accross the block which greatly simplifies trading within the block.

Without common tariffs, you would have all sorts of problems with prooving source of origin to prevent back-door trading within the block. This will be a nightmare for British businesses post Brexit if we have a deal that gives us free access to the EU market and also lets us make trade agreements with other countries. We would have to proove the British goods are 100% British to be entitled for tariff free sales within the EU. If you think the paperwork companies currently have to do is a ballache, then wait until they have to start filling out all the proof of origin forms.

Say for example the UK has a trading deal with India and a company is making some 'box' and they source the screws for the box from an Indian supplier. Because the UK manufacturer can source screws cheaper from India without tariffs than an EU equivalent manufacturer that has to pay tariffs, that gives the UK manufacturer an unfair advantage in the EU free trade area. So, for every component in the box, they have to proove where that component was manufactured and only if all components are sourced within the free trade area or are subject to common tariffs within the free trade area, then the company can sell thier box tariff free within the free trade area. You have to do this additional paperwork for everything, whether its tariff-free or not.

You are better off being completely in or completely out of a free trade area. Part in and part out opens up a whole ants nest of regulations, paperwork and expense for companies wishing to export thier goods to ensure there is no back-door tariff-free trading going on.


You can't have a free trade area with a level playing field without common regulations. The UK opted out of open borders as could any other country, the point is everyone else wanted open borders. I was living in Germany close to the French border before the borders opened and it was a nightmare with massive queues at the border and you could never predict how long a cross border journey would take as you could be stuck at the border for 5 minutes or 5 hours! I can now fly to Spain from Germany with only hand luggage and walk straight off the Aeroplane and out of the Airport with no delays. Fly to the UK and at each end I'm stuck in a queue for passport control! I personnally love open borders, it makes my life travelling so much easier hassle and delay free. Same goes for the Euro!

jonc

He voted for change but didn't know what the change would actually be. As you point out, he did complain about the housing crisis and lack of affordable housing and council houses. But clearly doesn't realise the EU has been a massive contributor to the UK in providing funding for more social housing. By voting leave it is going to make the situation he complains about even worse. Whilst the European Investment Bank is committed to funding existing housing projects, future funding will likely dry up post Brexit. But at lease the working class socialist will still be able to take advantage of the Thatcherite policy to buy his council house which will only add to the problem he complains about.


In answer to the questions you posed, of course none of those who voted leave will actually be able to say which specific EU directive has affected or impacted them directly because they can't differentiate between EU and UK laws.

The Trooper 1815

iTrader: (31)

I too spent many hours travelling back and forth from Germany pre-borders control in the 70's, 80's and early 90's, I even travelled on the Berliner Train (when I was very young) That was when uncontrolled immigration and movement was not a good idea. We also had a better understanding of who would likely cause us harm, unlike now.
We have to suck it up, get on with it, engage with the sytem and not all become a bunch of the snowflake generation backing away from any adversity. Until you lick the lollipop you will never know if it tastes of sh*t.

Geezer

They did offer concessions to Cameron. The issue was that Brexiters seemed to think that the EU should have offered us everything they wanted, which clearly was never going to happen.

The UK already had the best deal of any EU nation, there wasn't really much more they could give.

Well, I seem to remember how UKIP were going to get so many MPs, yet ended up with 1. Representation doesn't equal results. We shall see.



To a degree, yes, we are free to shop around. However, seeing as India has shown little interest in us, and wants greater freedom on movement of people, how do you think that is going to pan out with all the other nations?

As part of the EU, we don't have to try and get the best deal 195 times, with all those nations wanting what's best for them. The days of countries bending over to get a good deal with the Empire are long gone.

Turbohot

..whereas life is about give and take.

Some people have this so set in them that everyone out there is doing better than them and ripping them off something chronic that they can't see further than their own 'taking' hand.

Then they talk about the best deal. Best deal to them is when they have the birth right to take everything but not give anything back, or give back as little as possible.

Very, very poor mentality.

Such people will always feel hard done by, no matter what. If not one thing, it will be another one to blame- for their own doing.

dpb

We could always slap 60% import tax all Chinese goods , thatll do it

we can sell them our monarchy , and posh Houser Fraser cardboard carrier bags ( probably made in china ) , and the rest of londinum

Kwik

iTrader: (10)

Look it up. You'll find many sources quoting the eu as being either the slowest or 2nd slowest economy in the world. Some claim the eu were the worst, some say that was up until 2014 until other economies went into recession.
http://theconversation.com/fact-check-does-only-the-economy-of-antarctica-grow-slower-than-the-eus-61235

I've put up some of the problems I have with the EU. I've said that already and you've angrily ignored it.

£8bn AFTER rebates. That is taken from a remain source, not a brexit one. Brexit claimed higher, remain say its 'only' £8bn.
Now I very much doubt you've struggled to get your child into a school. I have had 2 unsuccessful appeals for my 2 youngest children aged 10 and 5.
My 10 yr old lad after appeal was given a 4th place or recommended option.
Luckily in the very well to do area of where I live most residents opted for a certain school in their catchment because of a headmaster with a very good reputation.
At the very start of my sons school life the same headmaster switched to his school. It was a long commute for us, our catchment school was in the next road to us, we didn't win the appeal. We were just told that there had been many applicants. We also found out later that successful applicants had used friends and families addresses to get into catchment. Most of the intake that year were non UK residents.
So we moved closer to my sons school. We were out of catchment as the area doesn't have social housing, rent is well above £1k per month for a flat and house prices there are £350k+ for small, thrown together houses.
When we applied for my daughter we were again given a 4th option, which is 6 miles from my sons school.
As I said my town is relatively industrious. Going from one side of town to another at 8am would take at least an hour. Neither school offered pre school clubs.
The appeal process was even more stressful this time. Our MP actually wrote back to say he 'couldn't get involved'.
The appeal board approached us and asked us to make statements as they had been advised false addresses had been given. We declined. They admitted the electoral role they used for catchment assignment was easily manipulated.

We sought our own solution. We found a brand new school on the other side of town, in an industrial estate. It had no class rooms, classes were separated with curtains and had barely any teachers. The school run takes us an hour now, it has pre school clubs so we chose it.
The new year at my sons school which my daughter would have attended is mostly non uk migrant children.

Catchment and sibling selection was recently voted on by my local governors. The vote was a tie. When asked why they then sided with catchment the appeal panel didn't know. Needless to say the appeal panel were mid fifties, upper class and well dressed and had a plethera of company cars.

£8bn would be a ridiculous boost to education. I'm not saying that's where it would go, but I'm certainly not voting to give that money elsewhere so an english child is shoved out of the way in favour of a migrant.

That's just one aspect I've rattled on about. There is certainly more where that came from. And you'll notice that it's from my personal experience, not what the BBC told me.

You'll not be surprised to find that my town voted for brexit. At the time some local websites were touting far far more than any right wing. I was actually shocked that local people voted in that way, although every local person I spoke to was voting Brexit.

I'd add that my problem wasn't just with the EU, it stems also from the UK's complete inability to police policies which they not only enforce but abide by.
I have quite open conversations with friends from EU countries living in the U.K. My children's school situation is still ongoing and they agree it is disgusting. They tell me the UK is a joke. It is here for the taking and one hand does not know what the other is doing, and they are correct.

If you want any more examples let me know

Turbohot

Honestly, there are folks that simply believe that they are the supreme most charity case on this earth! I was talking to one yesterday. This person happens to be a Brexiteer for his blessed actions, if not sins. The story is that this OAP person essentially needs to communicate with someone abroad soon. He doesn't want to spend on a telephone call. So I suggested that he could face-time abroad on FB Messenger for free. But he doesn't have the internet, never has had one. I showed this person the best Black Friday deals (he even had a BT Broadband letter hanging around), and also let him know that he can ask his neighbour for their wifi PW, if this convo would be just a one off one. That's if he has good relationship with his neighbours. Otherwise, it looks cheeky. Well, he doesn't have good relationship with his neighbours. In that case, I said that the best thing is to get a suitable internet connection on offer, which could be helpful for many things in future; with him living in rural isolation. But no! This person said that he doesn't know if he would use the internet, so he'll try asking the neighbour for their wifi PW. Let me add that this person is realistically more than middle-class, in terms of wealth. But no! He'd rather live on a charity of the neighbour that he doesn't even like than buy his own internet connection. Some people!

BMWhere?

Education makes up 11% of UK spending at around £85bn per year. Assuming they allocated 11% of the £8bn EU budget to education, then you'd be looking at a 1% increase to education spending which is very unlikely to fix the education problems.

Yes, you are right education is a disaster in the UK, but how is any of the problems you listed the fault of the EU? How come other EU countries can afford decent education systems?

Its up to the UK to invest in the education system, but it has failed to adequately invest for decades. The same is true for housing and for the NHS.

In Germany, who contribute significantly more to the EU budget than the UK, there is no education crisis, no housing crisis, and no healthcare crisis! There is only a pensions crisis due to the shrinking population and increasing life expectancy and this is the reason Frau Merkel is welcoming so many immigrants!

The main problem is the UK tax laws that have been designed to attract companies to the UK by low corporation tax. There also the tax free bonus culture of the city designed to make London (UK) more attractive to financial institutions. In the UK, the poor are taxed too much, while the rich are not taxed enough and the result is lack of public funding! All UK problems which leaving the EU is not going to fix!

BMWhere?

£8bn accounts for a fraction over 1% of the UK budget and that doesn't account for the fact we get about half of that back in subsidies and regional investments!

hodgy0_2

lol, from your source

"It is hard to know what to make of the claim from the Vote Leave campaign about Antarctica, as that continent has virtually no economic output. But the claim is simply false: the Latin American continent has lower growth than the European Union, according to the latest figures from the International Monetary Fund’s World Economic Outlook.

and

Growth in the European Union remains weak – but this is true across developed economies and it is not the worst performing area in the world. British growth is relatively high by developed country standards, but its recovery since the 2008 financial crisis has been weak. Antarctica doesn’t have an economy so it doesn’t even figure.

Kwik

iTrader: (10)

Do you think the EU invests in us what we invest in them?. If so, how do you believe they invest in countries that do not pay into the EU?.

You don't need to know the ins and outs of EU directives, its simple maths. It's all well and good bringing up the investments the EU make to help the UK, but it pales in comparison to what we pay in.

We pay x amount to help other EU countries. This is the EU's unrealistic ideology of a level playing field. Help industry and development in countries of a lesser economy and take more from strong economies than they give back.

However you want to dress it up in terms of investment we get less than we put in.

Free movement of people only works once the level playing field is level. It's doesn't take a genius to work out that if one economy is doing better than another, that economy will lure people from countries of lesser economies.

We cannot grow in the long term if we are to fit in with the ideology that a lesser economy needs to meet ours.

Do you think with this apparent 'growth in the UK' what we are expected to pay into the EU will rise or fall?.

It would have cost us more, we'd probably get even less invested as we're 'doing well' and there wouldn't be a damn thing we could do about it as I very much doubt a second referendum would be on the cards for a very long time.

Kwik

iTrader: (10)

So rather than the actual facts you've quoted you're concentrating on the 'non Antarctica' part of it rather than the 'weak' part?. Pmsl.

Like I said there are several sources. There are plenty of sources that completely deny it is weak.
Pretty much goes along with what I've said from the very beginning.

You believe one side, I believe another. I don't see £8bn worth of returned investement in the UK by the EU so it's not good value for money.
I don't see how an EU trade deal of a specific product is any better than a deal we could cut with the rest of the world.

BMWhere?

Much of the benefit is to business from being part of the trading union.

factsheet-2-benefits-of-eu-membership-outweigh-costs

Business benefits much more than £8bn a year! From that, you'll quite easily recoup the £8bn in additional tax revenue and that's without even considering any other benefits!

BMWhere?

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-38068358
Brexit has cost the UK £122bn already - thats 15 years of EU membership in less than 6 months!

JTaylor

Kwik, don't you look at people like BMWhere, Hodgy, Sad Weevil, Geezer, Jonc, Markjmd and others and think that they must be on to something? You're on the same team as Alcazar and The Trooper who, to my mind at least, seem to spend their time on this board specialising in being wrong. Lovely lads, I'm sure, but wrong about almost everything. Do alarm bells not ring? Is it like a game of poker where you're so committed to a hand that's absolutely bound to lose that you're somehow compelled to keep going? Why not just cough up, eh? You'll feel better for it.

hodgy0_2

lol, its your source


yeah not really about belief - I leave that to the clergy

hodgy0_2

what's fascinating is the denial, you see it alot debating CT'ers of all persuasions, from flat earther's (yes a lot of it about) to 911 twoofers and climate change "hoaxers"

the more actual facts and evidence you present the deeper they actually go

it's actually a weirdly rational position to take as they have invested so much emotional energy in their position - the "belief" becomes unshakable

Sad Weevil

iTrader: (1)

That link supports what I said. The EU is not the slowest growing economy in the world. Maybe you're confusing the Eurozone figures with the EU? We're not in the Eurozone, by the way. Currently Brazil, Venezuela, Russia, and a whole raft of other countries have a slower growth rate than the EU. So your statement that the EU is the slowest growing economy in the world is simply not true. End of.

What an arrogant assumption. Maybe you think I'm some sort of elite intellectual with a cushy job, a big salary and a company car? The fact is I'm a self-employed tradesman, have been all my life. I'm coming up to retirement, and my private pension that I paid into over many years is now worthless, thanks to a bunch of coke-head bankers gambling it away. The same group of people who are really to blame for the global recession and subsequent lack of growth.

None of that is because of our membership of the EU. It is because we have a government who only looks after their paymasters and lobbyists. It's called neo liberalism. Nothing to do with the EU. We need a proper government that governs for the people, not the corporations. We can agree on that.

You really think that at my age I have no personal experience? What's the BBC got to do with me? I have personal experience of 50 years worth of working in this country and all over Europe.

Well you may be surprised to find that my city voted strongly to remain. My council ward, which has a large number of immigrants from the EU and all over, voted 80% remain. And to remind you, the EU immigrants didn't have a vote.

Well I certainly agree with you on that. Your problem with educating your kids is disgusting. It's a tragedy that we don't have the opportunities that I had when growing up in the 50's and 60's. But it's because of what happened to the world after the Thatcher-Reagan revolution, the triumphing of the neo liberals, not our membership of the EU. You're blaming the wrong thing. None of the problems you describe above will magically disappear when we leave the EU. In fact, they'll get worse.

hodgy0_2

@ JT

also it is worthwhile pointing out that I don't have a excuse the phrase god given right to be right on anything - Brexit included

I just try and based my thoughts etc on the evidence and the facts, I could be wrong and always accept it if I am shown to be

all the evidence I have seen demonstrates to me that Brexit is a "fools errand"

and crucially the longer it goes on the stronger the evidence gets

Kwik

iTrader: (10)

As I said earlier it's not just an 'EU' problem it's also **** poor management from the UK government in all aspects.

But if it's **** poor in the first place why add strain to it. Free movement of people puts strain on a system you admit is a disaster.
I really don't understand how you can say 'the uk should invest in education' whilst we give money to the EU for them to invest in ANOTHER country.

That 1% is still £8bn and with wise investment that £8bn can go along way. That £85bn should be spent in a better fashion.

And yes I agree the rich are taxed to a lesser extent to the poor, but it doesn't mean throwing £4bn to other economies is a good idea.

However you want to dress it up the simple standpoint is we give money to the EU for them to help countries that don't pay into it, and my children's education is gambled because his/her place was taken by someone from the very same country that doesn't contribute and we pay the EU to help. You may then start to understand the frustration of the average brexiteer.

If anyone truly believes that we should live by this ideology of sharing and helping others at our expense, that 'birth rights' are ridiculous, and that we should suffer to help others then let's do an experiment.

Everyone put up a picture of your last p60. We will then work out an average and all of us pay in so we are all on a level playing field? No? Didn't think so .

Kwik

iTrader: (10)

I didn't say it would. I don't think a single person voting brexit thought it would magically fix the many problems in the UK.

Better management of finances would be the ideal solution. But I don't believe any politician that says they would, because they're all liars.
Not giving away money is another solution.

We didn't have a referendum on overthrowing the government.

*edit*
I've just seen the rest of your post.

Ok, so have you had to appeal to get your children into school?

You seem to be ignoring the word 'weak' when it comes to the EU ( not that that article matters, I put it up to show one side says one thing, it's up to you to argue if and probably when it was countered).

So I take it you voted remain?. Wouldn't be surprising that you live in a remain area either. It wasn't surprising to learn a former school friend that moved to Scotland in his twenties voted remain whilst the majority of his school friends voted brexit.

And I said it was personal experience rather than some media outlet as the majority of the remain camp seem to be obsessed with the idea that the average brexit voter was brainwashed by the media.

Geezer

The boost to the British economy far outweighs the £8bn we pay in, you cannot just look at that £8bn is isolation.