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So Brexit seems to be a good thing then.

Old 14 November 2016, 11:57 AM
  #121  
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Originally Posted by Kwik View Post

Our lack of competitiveness comes from the lack of funding UK based industries. I'm not saying that is a direct EU result, but for a start if we aren't importing cars from Germany by the bucket load it creates the chance for a British Manufacturer to build UK cars for UK customers. If we weren't encouraged to move industry to other EU countries, there'd be more jobs. More money into the economy, less strain on welfare (which needs a complete reform). I really don't understand how someone can say....

...but ignore the fact the EU has funded UK industries to move out of the UK.
That simply isn't true. The EU doesn't fund anyone to move, they may occasionally give a loan or grant, but only if requested, i.e. the company wants to move. You can hardly blame the EU for that!

Why don't you instead blame the UK government for not incentivising those companies to stay?
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Old 14 November 2016, 01:59 PM
  #122  
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Originally Posted by Kwik View Post
Nobody doubts the EU worked for us in years gone by. However it is the slowest growing economy in the world, possibly because of the way it is set up. And as the EU has shown it has no intention of change even when we were inside, and actually given the out vote by the UK you'd hope they'd look at themselves and think change is needed if a nation votes to get out.

The EU could have looked at our referendum and seen it as a threat, they didn't. They were sure we'd have stayed in and accepted the terms we'd always had. They could have come out a month before the vote with the possibility of different terms which would leave them open to others wanting the same but it would have secured the UK's involvement. And since the vote the have had the "it's my ball and you're not playing" kind of attitude.

We should have referendums. The problem is the media is pushing an agenda from one side or another. You're either an "idiot daily mail reader" (I had no idea the daily mail had a circulation of 17m ) or someone who thinks the BBC is gospel. Getting a true representation of facts would be near impossible.

Nope, I don't deny the EU has brought in employment legislation. We have it now, as long as we don't U-turn on those regulations then there isn't a problem. As they are established it would take a lot to go back. But we also have 0 hour contracts, the evil in employment these days. Like housing, an employers market leaves the employee to either accept those terms or stay out of work. I must have had 300 applications for positions that will only last 8 weeks, of which I only have 20 short term jobs to fill. I can pick and choose and have a supply should anyone not fit the bill once they've started.

You're looking at one side of the coin when it comes to the NHS. Depending on who you believe the NHS apparently spends 1bn a year on non UK nationals. So 11 percent of the NHS are non UK nationals, but those places WOULD get filled. The big picture is that 11 percent in the NHS, and all other industries need housing, that creates a renters market, higher rent, less UK owned homes and more strain on social housing. I'm afraid the whole "Ah the bloke in the village post office is a nice foreign chap, I'm voting for him to stay" is just as ignorant as the "get them out" attitude.

Our lack of competitiveness comes from the lack of funding UK based industries. I'm not saying that is a direct EU result, but for a start if we aren't importing cars from Germany by the bucket load it creates the chance for a British Manufacturer to build UK cars for UK customers. If we weren't encouraged to move industry to other EU countries, there'd be more jobs. More money into the economy, less strain on welfare (which needs a complete reform). I really don't understand how someone can say....

...but ignore the fact the EU has funded UK industries to move out of the UK.
thoughtful post thanks - don't agree everything and we should not have referendums though

Geezer has pointed out some things are not correct
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Old 14 November 2016, 02:38 PM
  #123  
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On the point of British built cars for British customers to buy, Britain did have an industry for mass produced cars but unfortunately they were [email protected], poorly designed and built, unreliable, lacked driver appeal and, most of all, were at the whim of disruptive unions, EU not at fault here.
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Old 14 November 2016, 04:56 PM
  #124  
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Originally Posted by Geezer View Post
That simply isn't true. The EU doesn't fund anyone to move, they may occasionally give a loan or grant, but only if requested, i.e. the company wants to move. You can hardly blame the EU for that!

Why don't you instead blame the UK government for not incentivising those companies to stay?
So you think that the EU giving grants to companies who "want to move" is a good thing?

And that we should somehow bribe them to stay?

Aye, that'd work.........
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Old 14 November 2016, 05:00 PM
  #125  
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Originally Posted by jonc View Post
On the point of British built cars for British customers to buy, Britain did have an industry for mass produced cars but unfortunately they were [email protected], poorly designed and built, unreliable, lacked driver appeal and, most of all, were at the whim of disruptive unions, EU not at fault here.
You missed out that the designs were poor and that the companies insisted on making what THEY wanted to make, not what the customer wanted to buy. As have quite a few British companies...and that's NOWT to do with unions and a LOT to do with thick arrogant bosses. It's one reason the British Hi-Fi industry is now so small.
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Old 14 November 2016, 07:22 PM
  #126  
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Originally Posted by alcazar View Post
You missed out that the designs were poor and that the companies insisted on making what THEY wanted to make, not what the customer wanted to buy. As have quite a few British companies...and that's NOWT to do with unions and a LOT to do with thick arrogant bosses. It's one reason the British Hi-Fi industry is now so small.
lol,I have to agree with you there

part of the historic problems in British industry is p1ss poor management - takes two to tango

it is a classic myth that ALL the UK's problems in the 70's where due to the unions
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Old 14 November 2016, 10:12 PM
  #127  
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37921598


Well done brexiteers.



More bureaucracy/ jobs for the boys

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.tel...roid-orange-gb

Last edited by dpb; 15 November 2016 at 03:51 AM.
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Old 15 November 2016, 07:40 AM
  #128  
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I'd say the French and other EU member states will be scoring a big own goal if there's no controls on their side of the channel, the marauding hoards of dodgy blokes blocking roads etc will only get worse and even more will stop trying to "get to the UK" and make a life / living out of getting others onto trucks etc.
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Old 15 November 2016, 09:29 AM
  #129  
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No, no, none of that is happening........
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Old 15 November 2016, 11:11 AM
  #130  
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Originally Posted by alcazar View Post
So you think that the EU giving grants to companies who "want to move" is a good thing?

And that we should somehow bribe them to stay?

Aye, that'd work.........

Whether it is a good or bad thing is irrelevant, he said that the EU were funding companies to move, the inference is that the EU is instigating these moves, but that is not the case. It's like saying the banks are bad for funding a loan for a small company to move from Ayrshire to Cornwall, as the jobs will be lost in Ayrshire, it's just the facilitator, the company makes the decision to move of its own volition, or the place in Cornwall offers an incentive to get the business. Either way, the bank (EU) is not at fault.


As for bribing, that really is oversimplifying it. If you call making the corporate tax laws attractive enough to encourage investment, or any other measure as bribery, then there really is no point in discussing this with you.
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Old 15 November 2016, 11:13 AM
  #131  
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Originally Posted by hodgy0_2 View Post
lol,I have to agree with you there

part of the historic problems in British industry is p1ss poor management - takes two to tango

it is a classic myth that ALL the UK's problems in the 70's where due to the unions

Makes you wonder why the Brexiters blame the EU, too
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Old 15 November 2016, 11:29 AM
  #132  
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Well, not a single plan to exit EU, I hear.

Before anyone asks where I heard it, it's here:

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews...Q&ocid=UE07DHP

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Old 15 November 2016, 02:07 PM
  #133  
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well this was exemplified by John Redwood in the commons a few weeks ago

when the Government was being asked some searching questions - buy all sides of the house

he stood up and his response

"have faith" - (that is a direct quote)

he has been arguing for Brexit for the last 40 years - you would have though he could have come up with something better

this is why the Government don't want any parliamentary scrutiny / vote

it will bring in to sharp relief that they are really making it up as they go along

the UK populace deserve better imo
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Old 15 November 2016, 02:17 PM
  #134  
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Originally Posted by hodgy0_2 View Post
well this was exemplified by John Redwood in the commons a few weeks ago

when the Government was being asked some searching questions - buy all sides of the house

he stood up and his response

"have faith" - (that is a direct quote)

he has been arguing for Brexit for the last 40 years - you would have though he could have come up with something better

this is why the Government don't want any parliamentary scrutiny / vote

it will bring in to sharp relief that they are really making it up as they go along

the UK populace deserve better imo
Yes, only if the Brexit supporting bandwagoners realise that, Hodgy.
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Old 15 November 2016, 02:36 PM
  #135  
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Originally Posted by alcazar View Post
No, no, none of that is happening........


how do you know this


you've got the ear of French politicians ?
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Old 15 November 2016, 04:27 PM
  #136  
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Originally Posted by Geezer View Post
Whether it is a good or bad thing is irrelevant, he said that the EU were funding companies to move, the inference is that the EU is instigating these moves, but that is not the case.
no...he clearly said funding, not instigating.

It's like saying the banks are bad for funding a loan for a small company to move from Ayrshire to Cornwall, as the jobs will be lost in Ayrshire, it's just the facilitator, the company makes the decision to move of its own volition, or the place in Cornwall offers an incentive to get the business. Either way, the bank (EU) is not at fault.
Do you not get the difference really? In the case of the banks, it's a LOAN, (would need to be paid back with interest.
In the case of the EU, they GIVE companies money WE (amongst others) paid in as a GRANT, (gift to facilitate something).


As for bribing, that really is oversimplifying it. If you call making the corporate tax laws attractive enough to encourage investment, or any other measure as bribery, then there really is no point in discussing this with you.
Of course there isn't...because you don't understand the difference between a loan and a grant, and you infer stuff that just wasn't said.

Back at ya.
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Old 15 November 2016, 04:28 PM
  #137  
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Originally Posted by dpb View Post
how do you know this


you've got the ear of French politicians ?
No...just pretending to be the UK media.
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Old 16 November 2016, 12:33 AM
  #138  
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Meanwhile, the Dutch finance minister, on Newsnight tonight, had this to say about Boris Johnson's recent utterings: "He is offering to the British people options that are not available, for example, to say that the UK could have full access to the internal market, but be outside the customs union...it's impossible, it just doesn't exist, so he's saying things that are, ah, intellectually impossible, and politically unavailable, so he's not giving the British people a fair view of what is available, of what is ahead in these negotiations. There is no win-win situation, it's going to be a lose-lose situation...."
That's comforting then. Boris also said yesterday that the 1957 Treaty of Rome, which laid out the foundations of the EU, made no mention of the free movement of people. However, it does, repeatedly, and in great detail. He is obviously either way out of his depth, not read it, or just telling big porkies. I suspect a combination of the three. And he's our foreign secretary ffs. It's a complete shambles.
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Old 16 November 2016, 07:43 AM
  #139  
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Originally Posted by Sad Weevil View Post
Meanwhile, the Dutch finance minister, on Newsnight tonight, had this to say about Boris Johnson's recent utterings: "He is offering to the British people options that are not available, for example, to say that the UK could have full access to the internal market, but be outside the customs union...it's impossible, it just doesn't exist, so he's saying things that are, ah, intellectually impossible, and politically unavailable, so he's not giving the British people a fair view of what is available, of what is ahead in these negotiations. There is no win-win situation, it's going to be a lose-lose situation...."
That's comforting then. Boris also said yesterday that the 1957 Treaty of Rome, which laid out the foundations of the EU, made no mention of the free movement of people. However, it does, repeatedly, and in great detail. He is obviously either way out of his depth, not read it, or just telling big porkies. I suspect a combination of the three. And he's our foreign secretary ffs. It's a complete shambles.
I have said a couple of years ago on SN, that Johnson is a dangerous fantasists of almost Trumpian proportions.


His intervention on the Free movement issue is interesting, it seems such a ludicrous claim to make because it is so easy to demonstrate he is talking bullsh1t

apparently "post-truth" has been named word of the year by Oxford dictionaries

anyway what Johnson might be softening the Brexiteer electorate for is around what the EU actually meant by "free movement"

so contrary to the general assumptions of the Brexiteers, the concept of "free movement" was always linked to work

that is, the actual EU provisions were that EU nationals are free to move to another EU state - and had 3 months to find work, or prove they satisfied a countries immigration tests - in the case of the UK they are the "Habitual Residence Test"

and these HRT would look at the ability of the person to support themselves and not be a burden on the state

so the UK did not have to support EU free loaders (if their actually were any), it was in the UK powers (within existing EU law) to deal with them as they wished

and this is notwithstanding the fact that ALL immigration outside the EU was ALWAYS within the power of the UK government

so what Boris can try and fudge to the UK population is that EU movement is linked to work and not burdening the UK welfare

hoping no one will realise that it actually always was

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Old 16 November 2016, 07:59 AM
  #140  
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All the average brexiteer is asking fur is slightly less completion lol, so they don't need turn to before 9am for work/job shop
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Old 16 November 2016, 08:34 AM
  #141  
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Johnson is the perfect Scapegoat, when he ****s it all up and we end up either not leaving or with a lose-lose it'll be his fault and that's great because it was him leading the charge before the vote.
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Old 16 November 2016, 08:37 AM
  #142  
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and hes always got fallback career as a standup
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Old 16 November 2016, 01:23 PM
  #143  
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Originally Posted by alcazar View Post
no...he clearly said funding, not instigating.

Ok, we can agree to disagree on that point, but still, the EU is not offering money, they are getting asked for it. The Brexiter view is that the EU is a bad thing because it provides money, but why? The companies want to move away from the UK for what reason? That is what you need to ask yourself. The answer is no the EU.



Originally Posted by alcazar View Post
Do you not get the difference really? In the case of the banks, it's a LOAN, (would need to be paid back with interest.
In the case of the EU, they GIVE companies money WE (amongst others) paid in as a GRANT, (gift to facilitate something).

Actually, the EU has done both loans and grants. It doesn't really matter, as I said before. The UK govt gives grants and loans, they only give when asked, like the EU. Seeing a pattern here?






Originally Posted by alcazar View Post
Of course there isn't...because you don't understand the difference between a loan and a grant, and you infer stuff that just wasn't said.

Back at ya.

Clearly you don't understand why it doesn't matter
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Old 16 November 2016, 06:05 PM
  #144  
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Originally Posted by Geezer View Post
Ok, we can agree to disagree on that point, but still, the EU is not offering money, they are getting asked for it. The Brexiter view is that the EU is a bad thing because it provides money, but why? The companies want to move away from the UK for what reason? That is what you need to ask yourself. The answer is no the EU.
The answer is cheaper labour. So less unemployed, more support towards another EU country. You can't bleat about the suffering of the UK economy due to the brexit vote, or loss of employment/industry when the EU were quite openly helping another EU country's economy whilst hurting ours. You'll find the country in question pays either very little or nothing at all into the EU. Like I said. Under the EU our economy HAS to suffer to support the economies of countries of a weaker economy. We pay into the EU to protect our economy and for it to be supported. Not to have them fund our economy being made weaker.

You can't have a level playing field without some losing and some gaining.



I notice there has been no mention of google, who yesterday announced they aren't remotely phased by the brexit vote and will be investing 1bn and creating 3000 jobs in the UK.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37988095

Notice the phrase "skilled" migrants. I don't think a single brexit voter would deny the migration of a skilled migrant.

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Old 16 November 2016, 06:13 PM
  #145  
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Originally Posted by Kwik View Post
Notice the phrase "skilled" migrants. I don't think a single brexit voter would deny the migration of a skilled migrant.
You'd be shocked/amazed/disturbed (delete as applicable) at how short sighted the average Brexiter can be.
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Old 16 November 2016, 06:26 PM
  #146  
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Originally Posted by neil-h View Post
You'd be shocked/amazed/disturbed (delete as applicable) at how short sighted the average Brexiter can be.
I'm not sure where you are getting that from. A few hand picked interviews from hundreds is not an accurate representation.
Actually racism is not that much of a British problem. It is more of a problem in the cultures of the EU countries the remoaners would love to flood our streets with.

Again though, only people who actually rub shoulders with migrants know that. I very much doubt newsnight would do a feature on it.
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Old 16 November 2016, 06:41 PM
  #147  
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Here's the blog that went viral just before the referendum. More than likely a lot of voters chose to vote how they did. Feel free to pick holes, its not my list, I'm sure there's a list of business' the EU has helped in the UK.
But if you think the EU is pro UK, you're very wrong...

Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.
Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.
Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.
Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.
British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.
Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.
Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.
M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.
Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.
Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.
Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.
Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.
Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.
Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.
ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs.
Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of 80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.
JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, brought up companies in the UK with 20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.
UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.
Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.
Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.
The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.
Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.
39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU.
The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.
*Name one major technology company still running in the UK, I used to contract out to many, then the work just dried up as they were sold off to companies from France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc., and now we don't even teach electronic technology for technicians any more, due to EU regulations.
I haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don't even go there.
I haven't mentioned what it costs us to be asset-stripped like this, nor have I mentioned immigration, nor the risk to our security if control of our armed forces is passed to Brussels or Germany.
Find something that's gone the other way, I've looked and I just can't. If you think the EU is a good idea.
1/ You haven't read the party manifesto of The European Peoples' Party.
2/ You haven't had to deal with EU petty bureaucracy tearing your business down.
3/ You don't care.
Brexit means the dissembling stops and Westminster is held to account for the good and the bad on every decision. As it should be. No wonder the Camerons and Blairs are terrified at the prospect...
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Old 16 November 2016, 06:53 PM
  #148  
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Originally Posted by Kwik View Post
Here's the blog that went viral just before the referendum. More than likely a lot of voters chose to vote how they did. Feel free to pick holes, its not my list, I'm sure there's a list of business' the EU has helped in the UK.
But if you think the EU is pro UK, you're very wrong...
But if you look at the bigger picture, the whole country and everyone in it in general has benefited being part of the EU.

http://www.inet.ox.ac.uk/news/Brexit
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Old 16 November 2016, 07:01 PM
  #149  
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That list is a load of bollocks.
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Old 16 November 2016, 07:29 PM
  #150  
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Originally Posted by jonc View Post
But if you look at the bigger picture, the whole country and everyone in it in general has benefited being part of the EU.

http://www.inet.ox.ac.uk/news/Brexit
The list I've posted is obviously exaggerated brexit propaganda. I know that, I certainly knew it before the brexit vote. Even the whole "Daily Mail readers" theory of the remoaners is shot to bits by the 1.6m circulation of the Mail would tell you 15m brexiteers think the Mail is bollocks.

However your link is pro-eu propaganda. Notice how it doesn't mention that the EU is the slowest growing economy. It doesn't mention it because it doesn't suit its agenda. I'm sure like most remoaners you'd probably deny the very existence of left wing propaganda.

So if you can't believe either side of the media what do you do? Surely go by what you see and hear in your personal life. I could sit for hours going through the map of the areas which voted brexit and remain and cross check it against a map of where migrants settle in the UK. I'd lay good money the brexit vote sits in areas of mass immigration. I'd say the remain vote areas are scarcely populated by migrants. You could say the migrants by pure chance have settled in areas occupied by knuckle dragging racist morons who read the daily mail and then go for a fight down the pub, or you could say that those that see the negatives of mass migration have had just about enough despite the name calling, spin and blanket propaganda to brain wash against an exit from the EU.

I'm not sure why remoaners are moaning anyway. It makes them a minority, which is a badge I'd have thought they'd love to wear
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