JTaylor

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

Indeed I think the EU is partly being scapegoated, not just during the referendum but in the decades preceding it. I probably could Google up a load of reports with headlines blaming the EU (or European political groups...such as the ECHR) for some policy or some politician being quoted making a excuse about something and blaming it on Europe. When the root pproblem is those here in UK government not there in the EU.

As an aside...this reader's letter in the Telegraph made me smile:

"SIR – If being in Europe protects workers’ rights, why are the French always out on strike?"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2...g-and-persona/

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

It's exactly 40 years ago to the very month that Mssrs Callaghan and Healey had to go begging for a multi-£billion loan from the IMF and suspend the BofE's membership of the foreign exchange markets. Are you seriously telling us that the majority of people in the country today are eating and living less well now than they were then? Also, what actual evidence do you have, even of the merely anecdotal kind, that standards of living in the rest of Europe have been affected to a lesser extent by this so-called decline that the UK has suffered? Just picking one obvious example at random, I would imagine that many Greeks might take issue with your claim.

lunar tick

iTrader: (2)

Yes, Tony Benn was such an ignorant thicko pedalling all that democracy crap wasn't he? If large swathes of the British population appall you so much, perhaps you should consider relocating to somewhere else? I hear property is cheap in Greece at the moment.

lunar tick

iTrader: (2)

Nail, head, hit.

Turbohot

Just on the bolded bit, it's untrue that the living standards have fallen over the years. Welfare benefit system has helped millions on indigenous British people after it came about and the standard of living has risen quite astonishingly. I always talk to ancient people from the WW1 and WW2 times, and they tell me so. Anecdotally, I can tell you that the single mums on benefit from the school gate, that's when my kids were little, could put designer track suits on their kids and buy them remote control toys; with the assistance of what they were getting. I know many 'benefitted' people with better standard of living than the ones who work and claim no benefits. With all my due regards empathy to genuinely needy people, Some of these people are not that mentally and physically disabled, but they are able to get benefits for their 'reasons' and go on expensive cruises at least twice a year and have expensive cars. One man never worked in his life. His parents never worked, either. He went on the have 8 kids and a massive people career (brand new) on his disability that doesn't really prohibit him from working. he can work but he won't work. He knows how to milk the system. One woman with a farm bungalow and at least a million in her bank has snatched herself a council bungalow (with all free disability aids) to live in. How and why, when she could actually afford to continue to live in her farm bungalow and buy all the aid by herself? Disability aided Council housing should be for the poor disabled, not for the millionaire disabled. But no, they know how to play the system.

By the way, all people quoted above are very white, very indigenously British people. They're not foreigners.

In my opinion there's no way the living standards have fallen in this country, regardless of the immigration flooding in. Work shy and shrewd Indigenous British are super fantastic at playing the system and flashing the 'vulnerability' card; with their preference to the wealth/conveniences accumulated via benefits, not via hard work. No wonder foreign people have to do those jobs, because the locals can't be @rsed.

Look into your extended families. you will find at least one long term scrounger, I bet. All the defects are far too close to home. But the mentality is that 'we can exploit and rig our system, we don't need foreigners to do that because it boils our blood. We'd rather those jobs be left undone than them taking those jobs on. Dog should eat dog, not mice.'. Nice.

One very wealthy and 'good job' man I know of (from very close sources), brought in a vulnerable Polish girl to serve her mother on very little money. Now when the 'servant' found herself some other menial jobs e.g. cleaning others' houses well, the 'master' woman got her goat bleating and sacked her with blaming her for stealing her money. Now they tarnish that girl with blaming her for bringing her whole family over to scrounge the UK's wealth etc. etc. which she hasn't done. She does send some money over, but from her wage packet, not from any state benefit that she doesn't receive. One can't win with the bitter and the cut ups, although they would have done the same in some other country, if they were in the same situation. Perhaps they wouldn't have sent any money back to their old parents or housewives, because they don't have the concept of 'family' and 'compassion' for it.

Sorry, I haven't got time to look into the figures to support whether the standard of living has arisen or what. Someone else can come in, slate and refute my script, no problem. Please, please yourself.

lunar tick

iTrader: (2)

Good post Turbohot. There are a lot of lazy, feckless indigenous British scroungers around. If we could export them to Eastern Europe and replace them with polite, hard working, well educated Eastern Europeans, that would be marvelous. For me however, this referendum is not about immigration, even though in some areas, it has put pressure on local services. It's not about economics either (there are pluses and minuses on both sides IMO). It's simply about my children being able to vote in and (more importantly) vote out the people who make the laws of the country that they will be living in.

Turbohot

Yes; to the bolded bit in particular.

That's what a wise and learned man says in this article that I posted a few pages back:

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/br...-a3259296.html

From the article:

It’s not the bureaucracy, it’s not the police, it’s not the politics but what is corrupt is the financial capital. 90 per cent of the owners of capital in London have their headquarters offshore...Jersey and the Cayman’s are the access gates to criminal capital in Europe and the UK is the country that allows it...

...Mr Saviano also weighed in on the EU referendum debate, warning a vote to leave the union would see Britain even more exposed to organised crime.

He added: “Leaving the EU means allowing this to take place. It means allowing the Qatari societies, the Mexican cartels, the Russian Mafia to gain even more power and HSBC has paid £2 billion Euros in fines to the US government, because it confessed that it had laundered money coming from the cartels and the Iranian companies".

But that's too hard for the 'Outs' to comprehend. Some of the ones that do understand are saying- "Even then, the EU adds to the problem because of free movement immigration, and we hate anything to do with foreign people and stuff being here'. I say- 'OK, good for you'.

I agree with the second bolded bit as well. I really never thought how much I'd end up disliking Boris. I never took the clown to be as low with his craft.

Turbohot

Thank you for recognising the harsh reality, lunar tick.

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

I agree wholehearted with Turbohot

Quality of life is often a mentioned buzzword amongst politicians and media, but for me its a moot point, as its mostly down to by the means of how you gauge it, and many factors that dictate one's quality of life are in my opinion not measurable as a statistic.

Sure a think tank can survey a load of people and ask them "are you happy?" But that is far to simplistic to measure a person's well being due to the factors that influence happiness. And as noted in the thread and the news/debates alot of the arguments are based on economics and migration....and to state the obvious, being wealthier, better supported through welfare or more financially stable does not mean your quality of life is better, just you have the means to live day-to-day. That is not IMO a measure of living standards, as commonly touted.


I'm sure TH's knowledge can highlight the torments some people suffer from all walks of life. The increasing complexities of modern life is a overwhelming factor for some people who are unable to cope. And there is a grandiose (or rose tinted) yearning from some vocal groups for a return to when times where more simplistic.

One factor I could say is a influence on life quality is the feeling of security over your present and future...and that's dictated on many many things over one's child and adulthood: Education? Job for life? Pension? Home? Health? The erosion of the "family unit" (single parents/multiple partners etc) and the knock-on effect that has on future generations.

I personally feel a big chunk of EU resentment and anger is the result of the social decay in the UK that's been going on since the end of WW2. The EU referendum is the only recent legitimate vent of that. If it were a referendum on the house of Lords, or even the abolishment of both the Labour or conservative parties, or the entire house of common, we'd see the exact same argument's for and against that we see here in this thread.

neil-h

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...category%20p$1

It's wonderful being British isn't it.

JackClark

"One woman with a farm bungalow and at least a million in her bank has snatched herself a council bungalow (with all free disability aids) to live in. How and why, when she could actually afford to continue to live in her farm bungalow and buy all the aid by herself? Disability aided Council housing should be for the poor disabled, not for the millionaire disabled. But no, they know how to play the system. "

One of the first questions you're asked is regarding how much money you have, you don't get free money with a million in the bank trust me. Well, child benefit which should be stopped too.

hodgy0_2

I am comparing us to comparable Northern European economies

And I used the term "eroded" - it means relatively to the wealthy

But I know the arguement, it goes something like this

"No one is poor anymore, I mean everyone can afford a 54" TV and a smartphone, wear designer clobber, smoke, own a dog blah blah blah"

It allows people to dismiss the plight of refugees etc, "I mean if they can afford a mobile phone and wear a Manchester United top how can they be blah blah blah"

Turbohot

I know that, Jack. and that is why it's even more surprising. No disabled millionaire can secure a fully aided council bungalow without fiddling the money. They can only do so if they declare what they declare and know very well how to hide what to hide. These clever people know how to fiddle. Thing is, some of their hideaways aren't even that hidden. The woman sold a couple of her houses while reaping the benefits of living in that disability aided council bungalow. That was done all openly, but she still sponges off the benefits. Obviously, she's not at the bottom of the food chain so she doesn't get all the benefits, but whatever she gets is also damn wrong. For example, when she moved into that fully aided council bungalow, she had one of her half a million bungalow rented out and up for sale. Now that wasn't a hidden fact, but she still continued to live in a disability aided council bungalow. She didn't deserve that. It should have been given to someone who was poor disabled, not rich disabled. Fraudster. The biggest drain on the economy are such rich blood suckers, centralising the money in their insatiably greedy hands and still sponging more and more. Look at that Sports Direct boss for example. He hasn't exactly built his empire without unethically sucking others' sweat and blood, has he? Now Let him strike a back hander deal with the government. All will be fine after a bit of a drama for public, and his infamy will become a short-lived history, then.

Yes, ALL unreasonable benefits and unreasonably paid reasonable benefit should stop, end of. No one is obliging anyone else but themselves by having a child.

c_maguire

It wouldn't be a particular surprise to see a distinct link between the choice of vote and the voter's intellect would it?

For those requiring an explanation I am suggesting one hell of a lot of the people that vote 'Leave' are going to be (or already are) bottom feeders.

c_maguire

You'll have to do better than that. The wealthy have certainly become wealthier and widened the gap, but in the UK and Eurozone as a whole the 'poorer' are better looked after than they have ever been. And claims about poverty gaps etc here are farcical when you visit Africa or Asia (which no doubt you have I expect). Virtually nobody here lives in what could realistically be called poverty. Until we take expectations into account, which is where the problems really lie.

Turbohot

I totally agree with the bolded bit, Ali. Not just the social decay but the euphoric traces of past glorious colonialism are also responsible. The fact is, Great is no more Great. After the colonial decline, I think the 'Great' should have been changed to 'Better'; 'Better' as not some almighty powerful and enslaving one but a tolerant, introspective and a realistic one. Psychological impact of so would have been positively different.

On this EU referendum fever, it pleases me to see such political proactivity in the masses, but it should be coupled with the awareness. Problem is that this awareness is either an educated and well-informed one, or an uneducated, ill-informed one. The latter is seriously dangerous in the long term.

Turbohot

One word- Awful. Not Great, not good but simply awful.

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

Your response would be nothing short of hilarious, if it wasn't for the fact it amounts to a naked admission that the comments I highlighted from your earlier post were deliberately couched in misleading terms. Back here in the real world, outside of the universe of Guardianite political spin you seem to inhabit, an erosion of someone's living standard means exactly that - their standard of living is less comfortable than it was before. It does not mean that simply by virtue of the fact that someone else's living standard has gone up twenty-fold, their own five-fold increase is actually a decrease

DYK

well they are not setting a good example drinking early in the morning onwards,but can anyone really be surprised at this when England and football is involved.
Don't have interest in football or ever want to.
Bunch of grown men getting p1ssed up fighting and chanting Engerrrland Engerrrland,**** of Europe just silly drunk men that let the side down.
I thought at first saying bottom feeders was hitting below the belt,but then again you do have some point for saying this.
With England's track record,they haven't lasted long in these tournaments.
So let hope its all over with soon and get back to normal.

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

Even your rabidly left-leaning choice of news outlets makes it clear that Russian and French fans (I use the term loosely) shared equal responbility for the trouble breaking out. Being the patriot that you are though, it's no real surprise to see you putting all the blame on the British contingent.

neil-h

Yeah that's all well and good but who tends to be the common denominator?

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

The Russian gangs involved here were boasting of the chaos they planned to cause at this tournament as far back as February this year:
https://www.thesun.co.uk/archives/ne...-in-euro-2016/

warrenm2

They obviously hold the wrong views. Perhaps they need to be sterilised to stop them breeding? And why stop there? Why not humanly euthanise them to enrich the human race and give them a mercy death? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_T4

c_maguire

Some good ideas. Where did you get them from?

SwissTony

iTrader: (19)

Blimey emotions are running high in this thread
It's only a vote

c_maguire

Warren and his friends are getting desperate to win something.
This might be their last chance.

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

In my opinion anyone who infers that the leave voters are of lower intellect or bottom of the social hierarchy undermines their credibility and every single post they have made for staying becomes wasted as I have zero care to read or listen to these types of people regardless of what side they are on.



It works both ways.

c_maguire

Bloody immigrants. If we vote Leave and get control of our borders (and a bit of sovereignty if we're lucky) we could put a stop to this nonsence.
And save 350 mill/week.

c_maguire

Does the truth factor into your position or is it a matter for principle irrespective of reality?