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EU Referendum
#1531
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well it is a good question
and the answer would no doubt go some way to explaining the Trump phenomena in the US as well
we are seeing protest politics - and the EU is seen (and being actively promoted by some) as the villain, the only villain
it isn't perfect, but then nothing is
it is being wrapped up in sovereignty - which will sound hollow when we actually leave, because it will destroy the same very argument
most people have seen their living standards eroded over the last 40 years - mainly across the US and the UK (not in Europe to the same extent)
wealth and power have been concentrated in fewer and fewer hands
blaming the EU (and going by the comments section of the linked Indie article it is just a proxy for the NWO Zionist conspiracy anyway :yawn: ) is an easy target
lets face it the UK government can't even get Facebook, Google, or Amazon et al to pay their fair share of tax - they simply pay what the want (yeah yeah I get avoidance / evasion :yawn: )
that is a bigger issue imo than the EU
watch the documentaries I posted, they are very watchable and informative
and I say again, this referendum is simply a culmination of bitter infighting between various factions and wings that have been going on in the tory party of the last 40 years
and the answer would no doubt go some way to explaining the Trump phenomena in the US as well
we are seeing protest politics - and the EU is seen (and being actively promoted by some) as the villain, the only villain
it isn't perfect, but then nothing is
it is being wrapped up in sovereignty - which will sound hollow when we actually leave, because it will destroy the same very argument
most people have seen their living standards eroded over the last 40 years - mainly across the US and the UK (not in Europe to the same extent)
wealth and power have been concentrated in fewer and fewer hands
blaming the EU (and going by the comments section of the linked Indie article it is just a proxy for the NWO Zionist conspiracy anyway :yawn: ) is an easy target
lets face it the UK government can't even get Facebook, Google, or Amazon et al to pay their fair share of tax - they simply pay what the want (yeah yeah I get avoidance / evasion :yawn: )
that is a bigger issue imo than the EU
watch the documentaries I posted, they are very watchable and informative
and I say again, this referendum is simply a culmination of bitter infighting between various factions and wings that have been going on in the tory party of the last 40 years
#1532
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
Indeed I think the EU is partly being scapegoated, not just during the referendum but in the decades preceding it. I probably could Google up a load of reports with headlines blaming the EU (or European political groups...such as the ECHR) for some policy or some politician being quoted making a excuse about something and blaming it on Europe. When the root pproblem is those here in UK government not there in the EU.
As an aside...this reader's letter in the Telegraph made me smile:
"SIR – If being in Europe protects workers’ rights, why are the French always out on strike?"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2...g-and-persona/
As an aside...this reader's letter in the Telegraph made me smile:
"SIR – If being in Europe protects workers’ rights, why are the French always out on strike?"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2...g-and-persona/
#1533
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (11)
well it is a good question
and the answer would no doubt go some way to explaining the Trump phenomena in the US as well
we are seeing protest politics - and the EU is seen (and being actively promoted by some) as the villain, the only villain
it isn't perfect, but then nothing is
it is being wrapped up in sovereignty - which will sound hollow when we actually leave, because it will destroy the same very argument
most people have seen their living standards eroded over the last 40 years - mainly across the US and the UK (not in Europe to the same extent)
wealth and power have been concentrated in fewer and fewer hands
blaming the EU (and going by the comments section of the linked Indie article it is just a proxy for the NWO Zionist conspiracy anyway :yawn: ) is an easy target
lets face it the UK government can't even get Facebook, Google, or Amazon et al to pay their fair share of tax - they simply pay what the want (yeah yeah I get avoidance / evasion :yawn: )
that is a bigger issue imo than the EU
watch the documentaries I posted, they are very watchable and informative
and I say again, this referendum is simply a culmination of bitter infighting between various factions and wings that have been going on in the tory party of the last 40 years
and the answer would no doubt go some way to explaining the Trump phenomena in the US as well
we are seeing protest politics - and the EU is seen (and being actively promoted by some) as the villain, the only villain
it isn't perfect, but then nothing is
it is being wrapped up in sovereignty - which will sound hollow when we actually leave, because it will destroy the same very argument
most people have seen their living standards eroded over the last 40 years - mainly across the US and the UK (not in Europe to the same extent)
wealth and power have been concentrated in fewer and fewer hands
blaming the EU (and going by the comments section of the linked Indie article it is just a proxy for the NWO Zionist conspiracy anyway :yawn: ) is an easy target
lets face it the UK government can't even get Facebook, Google, or Amazon et al to pay their fair share of tax - they simply pay what the want (yeah yeah I get avoidance / evasion :yawn: )
that is a bigger issue imo than the EU
watch the documentaries I posted, they are very watchable and informative
and I say again, this referendum is simply a culmination of bitter infighting between various factions and wings that have been going on in the tory party of the last 40 years
#1534
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (2)
What is working in your favour is 'one person one vote' and the fact that all the thickos breeding for free in since Blair rolled up have diluted the general intellect of the population.
And the fact that so many Labour voters are so daft that they can't bring themselves to vote with the Government on principle, irrespective of the issue.
The bigotted, ignorant garbage being peddled by the Leave lot beggars belief (whatever I may think about the Remain campaign). The fact they have as much support as they do has me mystified, as it seems so at odds with the liberal, inclusive crap the public seem to have embraced for so long en route to a higher plane of enlightenment I never wanted to inhabit.
And the fact that so many Labour voters are so daft that they can't bring themselves to vote with the Government on principle, irrespective of the issue.
The bigotted, ignorant garbage being peddled by the Leave lot beggars belief (whatever I may think about the Remain campaign). The fact they have as much support as they do has me mystified, as it seems so at odds with the liberal, inclusive crap the public seem to have embraced for so long en route to a higher plane of enlightenment I never wanted to inhabit.
#1536
It's exactly 40 years ago to the very month that Mssrs Callaghan and Healey had to go begging for a multi-Łbillion loan from the IMF and suspend the BofE's membership of the foreign exchange markets. Are you seriously telling us that the majority of people in the country today are eating and living less well now than they were then? Also, what actual evidence do you have, even of the merely anecdotal kind, that standards of living in the rest of Europe have been affected to a lesser extent by this so-called decline that the UK has suffered? Just picking one obvious example at random, I would imagine that many Greeks might take issue with your claim.
By the way, all people quoted above are very white, very indigenously British people. They're not foreigners.
In my opinion there's no way the living standards have fallen in this country, regardless of the immigration flooding in. Work shy and shrewd Indigenous British are super fantastic at playing the system and flashing the 'vulnerability' card; with their preference to the wealth/conveniences accumulated via benefits, not via hard work. No wonder foreign people have to do those jobs, because the locals can't be @rsed.
Look into your extended families. you will find at least one long term scrounger, I bet. All the defects are far too close to home. But the mentality is that 'we can exploit and rig our system, we don't need foreigners to do that because it boils our blood. We'd rather those jobs be left undone than them taking those jobs on. Dog should eat dog, not mice.'. Nice.
One very wealthy and 'good job' man I know of (from very close sources), brought in a vulnerable Polish girl to serve her mother on very little money. Now when the 'servant' found herself some other menial jobs e.g. cleaning others' houses well, the 'master' woman got her goat bleating and sacked her with blaming her for stealing her money. Now they tarnish that girl with blaming her for bringing her whole family over to scrounge the UK's wealth etc. etc. which she hasn't done. She does send some money over, but from her wage packet, not from any state benefit that she doesn't receive. One can't win with the bitter and the cut ups, although they would have done the same in some other country, if they were in the same situation. Perhaps they wouldn't have sent any money back to their old parents or housewives, because they don't have the concept of 'family' and 'compassion' for it.
Sorry, I haven't got time to look into the figures to support whether the standard of living has arisen or what. Someone else can come in, slate and refute my script, no problem. Please, please yourself.
Last edited by Turbohot; 11 June 2016 at 11:15 AM.
#1537
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (2)
Good post Turbohot. There are a lot of lazy, feckless indigenous British scroungers around. If we could export them to Eastern Europe and replace them with polite, hard working, well educated Eastern Europeans, that would be marvelous. For me however, this referendum is not about immigration, even though in some areas, it has put pressure on local services. It's not about economics either (there are pluses and minuses on both sides IMO). It's simply about my children being able to vote in and (more importantly) vote out the people who make the laws of the country that they will be living in.
#1538
well it is a good question
and the answer would no doubt go some way to explaining the Trump phenomena in the US as well
we are seeing protest politics - and the EU is seen (and being actively promoted by some) as the villain, the only villain
it isn't perfect, but then nothing is
it is being wrapped up in sovereignty - which will sound hollow when we actually leave, because it will destroy the same very argument
most people have seen their living standards eroded over the last 40 years - mainly across the US and the UK (not in Europe to the same extent)
wealth and power have been concentrated in fewer and fewer hands
blaming the EU (and going by the comments section of the linked Indie article it is just a proxy for the NWO Zionist conspiracy anyway :yawn: ) is an easy target
lets face it the UK government can't even get Facebook, Google, or Amazon et al to pay their fair share of tax - they simply pay what the want (yeah yeah I get avoidance / evasion :yawn: )
that is a bigger issue imo than the EU
watch the documentaries I posted, they are very watchable and informative
and I say again, this referendum is simply a culmination of bitter infighting between various factions and wings that have been going on in the tory party of the last 40 years
and the answer would no doubt go some way to explaining the Trump phenomena in the US as well
we are seeing protest politics - and the EU is seen (and being actively promoted by some) as the villain, the only villain
it isn't perfect, but then nothing is
it is being wrapped up in sovereignty - which will sound hollow when we actually leave, because it will destroy the same very argument
most people have seen their living standards eroded over the last 40 years - mainly across the US and the UK (not in Europe to the same extent)
wealth and power have been concentrated in fewer and fewer hands
blaming the EU (and going by the comments section of the linked Indie article it is just a proxy for the NWO Zionist conspiracy anyway :yawn: ) is an easy target
lets face it the UK government can't even get Facebook, Google, or Amazon et al to pay their fair share of tax - they simply pay what the want (yeah yeah I get avoidance / evasion :yawn: )
that is a bigger issue imo than the EU
watch the documentaries I posted, they are very watchable and informative
and I say again, this referendum is simply a culmination of bitter infighting between various factions and wings that have been going on in the tory party of the last 40 years
That's what a wise and learned man says in this article that I posted a few pages back:
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/br...-a3259296.html
From the article:
It’s not the bureaucracy, it’s not the police, it’s not the politics but what is corrupt is the financial capital. 90 per cent of the owners of capital in London have their headquarters offshore...Jersey and the Cayman’s are the access gates to criminal capital in Europe and the UK is the country that allows it...
...Mr Saviano also weighed in on the EU referendum debate, warning a vote to leave the union would see Britain even more exposed to organised crime.
He added: “Leaving the EU means allowing this to take place. It means allowing the Qatari societies, the Mexican cartels, the Russian Mafia to gain even more power and HSBC has paid Ł2 billion Euros in fines to the US government, because it confessed that it had laundered money coming from the cartels and the Iranian companies".
But that's too hard for the 'Outs' to comprehend. Some of the ones that do understand are saying- "Even then, the EU adds to the problem because of free movement immigration, and we hate anything to do with foreign people and stuff being here'. I say- 'OK, good for you'.
I agree with the second bolded bit as well. I really never thought how much I'd end up disliking Boris. I never took the clown to be as low with his craft.
#1539
Good post Turbohot. There are a lot of lazy, feckless indigenous British scroungers around. If we could export them to Eastern Europe and replace them with polite, hard working, well educated Eastern Europeans, that would be marvelous. For me however, this referendum is not about immigration, even though in some areas, it has put pressure on local services. It's not about economics either (there are pluses and minuses on both sides IMO). It's simply about my children being able to vote in and (more importantly) vote out the people who make the laws of the country that they will be living in.
#1540
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I agree wholehearted with Turbohot
Quality of life is often a mentioned buzzword amongst politicians and media, but for me its a moot point, as its mostly down to by the means of how you gauge it, and many factors that dictate one's quality of life are in my opinion not measurable as a statistic.
Sure a think tank can survey a load of people and ask them "are you happy?" But that is far to simplistic to measure a person's well being due to the factors that influence happiness. And as noted in the thread and the news/debates alot of the arguments are based on economics and migration....and to state the obvious, being wealthier, better supported through welfare or more financially stable does not mean your quality of life is better, just you have the means to live day-to-day. That is not IMO a measure of living standards, as commonly touted.
I'm sure TH's knowledge can highlight the torments some people suffer from all walks of life. The increasing complexities of modern life is a overwhelming factor for some people who are unable to cope. And there is a grandiose (or rose tinted) yearning from some vocal groups for a return to when times where more simplistic.
One factor I could say is a influence on life quality is the feeling of security over your present and future...and that's dictated on many many things over one's child and adulthood: Education? Job for life? Pension? Home? Health? The erosion of the "family unit" (single parents/multiple partners etc) and the knock-on effect that has on future generations.
I personally feel a big chunk of EU resentment and anger is the result of the social decay in the UK that's been going on since the end of WW2. The EU referendum is the only recent legitimate vent of that. If it were a referendum on the house of Lords, or even the abolishment of both the Labour or conservative parties, or the entire house of common, we'd see the exact same argument's for and against that we see here in this thread.
Quality of life is often a mentioned buzzword amongst politicians and media, but for me its a moot point, as its mostly down to by the means of how you gauge it, and many factors that dictate one's quality of life are in my opinion not measurable as a statistic.
Sure a think tank can survey a load of people and ask them "are you happy?" But that is far to simplistic to measure a person's well being due to the factors that influence happiness. And as noted in the thread and the news/debates alot of the arguments are based on economics and migration....and to state the obvious, being wealthier, better supported through welfare or more financially stable does not mean your quality of life is better, just you have the means to live day-to-day. That is not IMO a measure of living standards, as commonly touted.
I'm sure TH's knowledge can highlight the torments some people suffer from all walks of life. The increasing complexities of modern life is a overwhelming factor for some people who are unable to cope. And there is a grandiose (or rose tinted) yearning from some vocal groups for a return to when times where more simplistic.
One factor I could say is a influence on life quality is the feeling of security over your present and future...and that's dictated on many many things over one's child and adulthood: Education? Job for life? Pension? Home? Health? The erosion of the "family unit" (single parents/multiple partners etc) and the knock-on effect that has on future generations.
I personally feel a big chunk of EU resentment and anger is the result of the social decay in the UK that's been going on since the end of WW2. The EU referendum is the only recent legitimate vent of that. If it were a referendum on the house of Lords, or even the abolishment of both the Labour or conservative parties, or the entire house of common, we'd see the exact same argument's for and against that we see here in this thread.
#1541
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#1542
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"One woman with a farm bungalow and at least a million in her bank has snatched herself a council bungalow (with all free disability aids) to live in. How and why, when she could actually afford to continue to live in her farm bungalow and buy all the aid by herself? Disability aided Council housing should be for the poor disabled, not for the millionaire disabled. But no, they know how to play the system. "
One of the first questions you're asked is regarding how much money you have, you don't get free money with a million in the bank trust me. Well, child benefit which should be stopped too.
One of the first questions you're asked is regarding how much money you have, you don't get free money with a million in the bank trust me. Well, child benefit which should be stopped too.
#1543
Scooby Regular
It's exactly 40 years ago to the very month that Mssrs Callaghan and Healey had to go begging for a multi-Łbillion loan from the IMF and suspend the BofE's membership of the foreign exchange markets. Are you seriously telling us that the majority of people in the country today are eating and living less well now than they were then? Also, what actual evidence do you have, even of the merely anecdotal kind, that standards of living in the rest of Europe have been affected to a lesser extent by this so-called decline that the UK has suffered? Just picking one obvious example at random, I would imagine that many Greeks might take issue with your claim.
And I used the term "eroded" - it means relatively to the wealthy
But I know the arguement, it goes something like this
"No one is poor anymore, I mean everyone can afford a 54" TV and a smartphone, wear designer clobber, smoke, own a dog blah blah blah"
It allows people to dismiss the plight of refugees etc, "I mean if they can afford a mobile phone and wear a Manchester United top how can they be blah blah blah"
#1544
"One woman with a farm bungalow and at least a million in her bank has snatched herself a council bungalow (with all free disability aids) to live in. How and why, when she could actually afford to continue to live in her farm bungalow and buy all the aid by herself? Disability aided Council housing should be for the poor disabled, not for the millionaire disabled. But no, they know how to play the system. "
One of the first questions you're asked is regarding how much money you have, you don't get free money with a million in the bank trust me. Well, child benefit which should be stopped too.
One of the first questions you're asked is regarding how much money you have, you don't get free money with a million in the bank trust me. Well, child benefit which should be stopped too.
Yes, ALL unreasonable benefits and unreasonably paid reasonable benefit should stop, end of. No one is obliging anyone else but themselves by having a child.
#1545
It wouldn't be a particular surprise to see a distinct link between the choice of vote and the voter's intellect would it?
For those requiring an explanation I am suggesting one hell of a lot of the people that vote 'Leave' are going to be (or already are) bottom feeders.
#1546
I am comparing us to comparable Northern European economies
And I used the term "eroded" - it means relatively to the wealthy
But I know the arguement, it goes something like this
"No one is poor anymore, I mean everyone can afford a 54" TV and a smartphone, wear designer clobber, smoke, own a dog blah blah blah"
It allows people to dismiss the plight of refugees etc, "I mean if they can afford a mobile phone and wear a Manchester United top how can they be blah blah blah"
And I used the term "eroded" - it means relatively to the wealthy
But I know the arguement, it goes something like this
"No one is poor anymore, I mean everyone can afford a 54" TV and a smartphone, wear designer clobber, smoke, own a dog blah blah blah"
It allows people to dismiss the plight of refugees etc, "I mean if they can afford a mobile phone and wear a Manchester United top how can they be blah blah blah"
#1547
I agree wholehearted with Turbohot
Quality of life is often a mentioned buzzword amongst politicians and media, but for me its a moot point, as its mostly down to by the means of how you gauge it, and many factors that dictate one's quality of life are in my opinion not measurable as a statistic.
Sure a think tank can survey a load of people and ask them "are you happy?" But that is far to simplistic to measure a person's well being due to the factors that influence happiness. And as noted in the thread and the news/debates alot of the arguments are based on economics and migration....and to state the obvious, being wealthier, better supported through welfare or more financially stable does not mean your quality of life is better, just you have the means to live day-to-day. That is not IMO a measure of living standards, as commonly touted.
I'm sure TH's knowledge can highlight the torments some people suffer from all walks of life. The increasing complexities of modern life is a overwhelming factor for some people who are unable to cope. And there is a grandiose (or rose tinted) yearning from some vocal groups for a return to when times where more simplistic.
One factor I could say is a influence on life quality is the feeling of security over your present and future...and that's dictated on many many things over one's child and adulthood: Education? Job for life? Pension? Home? Health? The erosion of the "family unit" (single parents/multiple partners etc) and the knock-on effect that has on future generations.
I personally feel a big chunk of EU resentment and anger is the result of the social decay in the UK that's been going on since the end of WW2. The EU referendum is the only recent legitimate vent of that. If it were a referendum on the house of Lords, or even the abolishment of both the Labour or conservative parties, or the entire house of common, we'd see the exact same argument's for and against that we see here in this thread.
Quality of life is often a mentioned buzzword amongst politicians and media, but for me its a moot point, as its mostly down to by the means of how you gauge it, and many factors that dictate one's quality of life are in my opinion not measurable as a statistic.
Sure a think tank can survey a load of people and ask them "are you happy?" But that is far to simplistic to measure a person's well being due to the factors that influence happiness. And as noted in the thread and the news/debates alot of the arguments are based on economics and migration....and to state the obvious, being wealthier, better supported through welfare or more financially stable does not mean your quality of life is better, just you have the means to live day-to-day. That is not IMO a measure of living standards, as commonly touted.
I'm sure TH's knowledge can highlight the torments some people suffer from all walks of life. The increasing complexities of modern life is a overwhelming factor for some people who are unable to cope. And there is a grandiose (or rose tinted) yearning from some vocal groups for a return to when times where more simplistic.
One factor I could say is a influence on life quality is the feeling of security over your present and future...and that's dictated on many many things over one's child and adulthood: Education? Job for life? Pension? Home? Health? The erosion of the "family unit" (single parents/multiple partners etc) and the knock-on effect that has on future generations.
I personally feel a big chunk of EU resentment and anger is the result of the social decay in the UK that's been going on since the end of WW2. The EU referendum is the only recent legitimate vent of that. If it were a referendum on the house of Lords, or even the abolishment of both the Labour or conservative parties, or the entire house of common, we'd see the exact same argument's for and against that we see here in this thread.
On this EU referendum fever, it pleases me to see such political proactivity in the masses, but it should be coupled with the awareness. Problem is that this awareness is either an educated and well-informed one, or an uneducated, ill-informed one. The latter is seriously dangerous in the long term.
Last edited by Turbohot; 11 June 2016 at 01:24 PM.
#1548
#1549
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I am comparing us to comparable Northern European economies
And I used the term "eroded" - it means relatively to the wealthy
But I know the arguement, it goes something like this
"No one is poor anymore, I mean everyone can afford a 54" TV and a smartphone, wear designer clobber, smoke, own a dog blah blah blah"
It allows people to dismiss the plight of refugees etc, "I mean if they can afford a mobile phone and wear a Manchester United top how can they be blah blah blah"
And I used the term "eroded" - it means relatively to the wealthy
But I know the arguement, it goes something like this
"No one is poor anymore, I mean everyone can afford a 54" TV and a smartphone, wear designer clobber, smoke, own a dog blah blah blah"
It allows people to dismiss the plight of refugees etc, "I mean if they can afford a mobile phone and wear a Manchester United top how can they be blah blah blah"
#1550
Scooby Regular
It wouldn't be a particular surprise to see a distinct link between the choice of vote and the voter's intellect would it?
For those requiring an explanation I am suggesting one hell of a lot of the people that vote 'Leave' are going to be (or already are) bottom feeders.
For those requiring an explanation I am suggesting one hell of a lot of the people that vote 'Leave' are going to be (or already are) bottom feeders.
well they are not setting a good example drinking early in the morning onwards,but can anyone really be surprised at this when England and football is involved.
Don't have interest in football or ever want to.
Bunch of grown men getting p1ssed up fighting and chanting Engerrrland Engerrrland,**** of Europe just silly drunk men that let the side down.
I thought at first saying bottom feeders was hitting below the belt,but then again you do have some point for saying this.
With England's track record,they haven't lasted long in these tournaments.
So let hope its all over with soon and get back to normal.
#1551
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#1552
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Even your rabidly left-leaning choice of news outlets makes it clear that Russian and French fans (I use the term loosely) shared equal responbility for the trouble breaking out. Being the patriot that you are though, it's no real surprise to see you putting all the blame on the British contingent.
#1553
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https://www.thesun.co.uk/archives/ne...-in-euro-2016/
#1554
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It wouldn't be a particular surprise to see a distinct link between the choice of vote and the voter's intellect would it?
For those requiring an explanation I am suggesting one hell of a lot of the people that vote 'Leave' are going to be (or already are) bottom feeders.
For those requiring an explanation I am suggesting one hell of a lot of the people that vote 'Leave' are going to be (or already are) bottom feeders.
#1555
They obviously hold the wrong views. Perhaps they need to be sterilised to stop them breeding? And why stop there? Why not humanly euthanise them to enrich the human race and give them a mercy death? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_T4
#1558
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
In my opinion anyone who infers that the leave voters are of lower intellect or bottom of the social hierarchy undermines their credibility and every single post they have made for staying becomes wasted as I have zero care to read or listen to these types of people regardless of what side they are on.
It works both ways.
It works both ways.
Last edited by ALi-B; 11 June 2016 at 02:35 PM.
#1559
The Russian gangs involved here were boasting of the chaos they planned to cause at this tournament as far back as February this year:
https://www.thesun.co.uk/archives/ne...-in-euro-2016/
https://www.thesun.co.uk/archives/ne...-in-euro-2016/
And save 350 mill/week.
#1560
In my opinion anyone who infers that the leave voters are of lower intellect or bottom of the social hierarchy undermines their credibility and every single post they have made for staying becomes wasted as I have zero care to read or listen to these types of people regardless of what side they are on.
It works both ways.
It works both ways.