JTaylor

Well I imagine a world where Europe, Australasia and the Americas are one; Britain should be part of that vision.

Petem95

So you want to build an empire?

JGlanzaV

iTrader: (3)

Gods empire knows no boundaries

dpb

is the point not that state of the art defences didn't work last time ?

JTaylor

Sure. Well, I don't personally, but I'd like to see liberal democracy as the dominant force in the world. There's traditionally a hegemony and I'd prefer it to be one that supported human rights. As Churchill said: "Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time...". Still stands, in fact Francis Fukayama claims that Liberal Democracy is "The End of History" in his book of the same name. It's inevitable that in the future there'll be just a few dominant ideologies and I want the one that's best for the most people. A United States of Europe is the next stage in that process.

Petem95

Fair enough JTaylor, those 'liberal utopia' fantasies eh! I respect your opinion though.

Going to be interesting to see if Boris Johnson comes out in support of the 'out' campaign. I think that would be a big boost if he did, although he'd have to face the wrath of Cameron.

I'm actually surprised Corbin hasn't come out in support of the 'out' vote to be honest. I've read a lot suggesting he might be in favour of it, and although I'm not a Labour supporter I kind admire him for standing up for what he believes in.

dpb

To have a proper union wealth and opportunity has to be shared out and somebody has to be in charge or have the fudge we presently commit to .

hodgy0_2

Yes and I think he is a bit embarrassed by that book now, it seems a little premature

I don't think America is that good an advert for liberal democracy at the moment

And I am very wary of the "American exceptionalism" view - epitomised by Fukayama book

JTaylor

On the contrary; it will have, as Churchill so eloquently said, all the "sin and woe" of a world inhabited by flawed humans like me and you. But it will be a world where gay and straight, black and white people, men and women, atheists and theists, rich and poor and all manner of other diverse groups can live in relative freedom and security. And it will evolve. It won't be immutable. A coming together of nation states who share similar ideals and aspirations is the next step for our race. Let's not shrink back in to our island. Let's protect what it stands for by reaching out and joining forces with our cousins around the world!

Petem95

Are you under the influence of a legal high at the moment?!

dpb

Europeans are to become a race ??

JTaylor

It was premature, but Fukayama has modified his position rather than ditched it. He's also distanced himself from the neoconservative movement. I read 'End of History' during my politics course and even though I was of the left at the time I found it compelling and still think that, like Hitchens did, the principle of pushing liberal democracy as a global hegemony is a noble pursuit. That the States and its allies got it wrong across the Islamic world does not mean the principle itself is wrong, but the execution. We see true communism shrinking and we're just waiting on an Islamic reformation. Should only take a millenium or two.

JTaylor

Sort of.

The human race, you plonker.

You lot seem to think this vote is about straight bananas and fishing rights. Well, actually it's about the socio-cultural evolution of the west. So get it right.

dpb

James out of interest have you ever done a real job , apart from selling dreams that is

(beds)


or have I got that wrong

Tidgy

this is the problem i was eluding to earlier, lets face it 99% of us don;t know the real implications and just go on what we are told or headlines about imigration

JTaylor

Not sure it's relevant, but been in sales since I left uni' at 21 until now selling everything from houses, alloy wheels (my own shambolic outfit) to money. Have studied at intervals in between, but have always remained in employment. Currently a sales manager with Dreams. Why?

hodgy0_2

Yes you are right to be wary of the "headlines"

As JTaylor as pointed out it is much much more than they would have you believe

It is about ascribing to European values - it is not perfect, but leaving won't bring perfection either (leaving the EU won't mean UK will collapse either)

Take child benefit, yes it seems odd that a Polish worker gets to send his money back home

I lost all my entitlement to child benefit 3 odd years ago

The EU rule is not so much that a Polish worker has that right, but rather he has the same rights as any worker working in the UK

The government could stop it by simply stopping child benefit altogether - but that is really a race to the bottom

Because actually the real kicker is that this is a tiny amount on money in the Grand scheme of things - but makes a great headline

You must always be careful of the debating tactic that goes

"oh look there's a squirrel"

And the out campaign seems to do quite a lot of

"Oh look there's a squirrel"

JTaylor

I care enough about future generations, the country and humanity to try to see beyond the end of my nose.

Stronger together.

JGlanzaV

iTrader: (3)

I dont think we have much choice but to stay in to be honest, as much as I want out.

The EU have done alot for workers rights, that would have never happened if we were out of it.

Turbohot

Sure. Stronger together.

Including non-Christians? Or, will they have to become Christians to be worthy of your full care and compassion?

JGlanzaV

iTrader: (3)

JTaylor

Ask the question on the other thread, Swati.

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Whilst I'd love to agree with you, JT, we need to look at the bigger picture.

United Europe all singing from the same sheet? great...except what happens when those intent on altering our religion to THEIR way of thinking, start making themselves a nuisance?

You have 28 countries who can't agree how to deal with the problem, and lots of them are now sooooo liberal, they don't see it AS a problem.....

neil-h

Agreed, it may well work if there was a true Union. Instead people insist on going on about an antiquated idea of national identity and 'our jobs for our people'.

JTaylor

In a society that rightly allows freedom of religion, Islam can flourish. Islamism on the other hand is an ideology and one that the majority of the human race would like to see extirpated. The balance to strike is between taking measures to iradicate the cancer within our borders (however expansive they are) whilst protecting our liberal principles. Not easy, but there absolutely needs to be a common policy that meets the above criteria. What I'm sure of is withdrawing from Europe won't deal with the threat of Islamism and I'm confident that a united Europe with a common defence policy will be much better equipped to deal with the threat from across the Med'.

dpb

'Stronger together' on the eastern fringes has provoked Russia into stepping into those areas. That'll be a FAIL then ..!

Turbohot

I asked you here, and you well know why. It's perfectly relevant to question the mindset of a man in the very context of this thread, where he shows contradictions (to his own mindset) and gives out conflicting (to his own mindset) statements.

Answer it on this thread, James.

JTaylor

Well, if Warren doesn't mind and if you insist.

Christianity supports secular politics (Google 'Render unto Caesar'), it is not an ideology. No Christian is pushing for a theocracy in this life. Just because we Christians want other people to be 'saved' does not mean we do not love them. Indeed it is exactly because we love them that we want them to be saved. If people want to reject Jesus that's their choice, that doesn't mean I want them to suffer in this life or the next.

JTaylor

Warren, if you want the above moving just ping a mod' and I'm sure they'll sort it.

Petem95

Boris Johnson backing the out campaign - great news, and should give the out campaign a real boost!