brakes nightmare... HELP needed !!
27 February 2013, 12:57 PM
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brakes nightmare... HELP needed !!
Hi guys I have serius problems with the brakes of my 2000 wrx classic with four pots calipers (with new sealings) and abs...
Brief summary :
-Purchased new godspeed discs with ebc orange pads and goodridge braided lines, got them installed by the dealer... The car didnt braked at all, they told me that new stuffs needed to bed in...
-did a full gas tank of bedding in but the pedal was going to the ground with no stopping power at all !
- Bleeded the brakes myself, followed this order (my car is left drived , master cylinder is on the left of the car) : front left , front right, rear left , rear right. No results , still very soft pedal.
- Bleeded them again in a different order: rear right, front left, rear left, front right . This time the bleeding was effective and the pedal was finally rock hard !
-tried the car on the track and experienced heavy fading, smoke from the brakes and pedal to the ground again!
As the brakes were bleeded properly I tought that the fading must have happened because of the crappy 5.1 fluid i putted in ( 260 °c dry boiling point), so now I've buyed a proper motul rbf 660 brake fluid to change it.
As bleeding the brakes myself has been very unconfortable for not having a lift or stands for the car, I brought it back to the dealer who has changed it without charging me anything: still very mushy pedal .
Walked away and took it to another mechanic, who did the job again, bleeding about 100 ml of fluid per caliper: equally mushy pedal like before! I told him to do it again in the diagonal order wich I have used before , he bleeded another 100 ml per wheel with no luck.. He said its because of the pads surface that has deteriorated and its not even , and that a little bedding in of the pads would have brought the pedal hard again ... Not the case , i've driven the car for some days and the pedal is still soft!
I've noticed one thing: with the engine off the pedal is properly hard, but when I turn it on the pedal loses the first half of its travel ! Also the braking is unconsistent: sometimes no power and soft pedal, and sometimes better power and harder pedal , I believe this is a clear index of air in the circuit!
Now after the fading at the circuit the new pads where actually garbage, they were very deteriorated on the sides and even the discs are a bit ruined ( but they're straight as they don't judder at all). The new dust seals on the calipers pistons are MELTED by the heat ! the pistons are perfectly free tough.
I want to give it another try to bleeding them myself, can you suggest me the best procedure to follow regarding wheels order ?
Any other suggestion is appreciated, especially regarding good race pads for the 4 pots...
Brief summary :
-Purchased new godspeed discs with ebc orange pads and goodridge braided lines, got them installed by the dealer... The car didnt braked at all, they told me that new stuffs needed to bed in...
-did a full gas tank of bedding in but the pedal was going to the ground with no stopping power at all !
- Bleeded the brakes myself, followed this order (my car is left drived , master cylinder is on the left of the car) : front left , front right, rear left , rear right. No results , still very soft pedal.
- Bleeded them again in a different order: rear right, front left, rear left, front right . This time the bleeding was effective and the pedal was finally rock hard !
-tried the car on the track and experienced heavy fading, smoke from the brakes and pedal to the ground again!
As the brakes were bleeded properly I tought that the fading must have happened because of the crappy 5.1 fluid i putted in ( 260 °c dry boiling point), so now I've buyed a proper motul rbf 660 brake fluid to change it.
As bleeding the brakes myself has been very unconfortable for not having a lift or stands for the car, I brought it back to the dealer who has changed it without charging me anything: still very mushy pedal .
Walked away and took it to another mechanic, who did the job again, bleeding about 100 ml of fluid per caliper: equally mushy pedal like before! I told him to do it again in the diagonal order wich I have used before , he bleeded another 100 ml per wheel with no luck.. He said its because of the pads surface that has deteriorated and its not even , and that a little bedding in of the pads would have brought the pedal hard again ... Not the case , i've driven the car for some days and the pedal is still soft!
I've noticed one thing: with the engine off the pedal is properly hard, but when I turn it on the pedal loses the first half of its travel ! Also the braking is unconsistent: sometimes no power and soft pedal, and sometimes better power and harder pedal , I believe this is a clear index of air in the circuit!
Now after the fading at the circuit the new pads where actually garbage, they were very deteriorated on the sides and even the discs are a bit ruined ( but they're straight as they don't judder at all). The new dust seals on the calipers pistons are MELTED by the heat ! the pistons are perfectly free tough.
I want to give it another try to bleeding them myself, can you suggest me the best procedure to follow regarding wheels order ?
Any other suggestion is appreciated, especially regarding good race pads for the 4 pots...
27 February 2013, 01:08 PM
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I started to think its very possible ! maybe the heating experienced at the track cooked it forever...
But before I buy a master cylinder , how can I be sure ?
But before I buy a master cylinder , how can I be sure ?
27 February 2013, 01:10 PM
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I started to think its very possible ! maybe the heating experienced at the track cooked it forever...
But before I buy a master cylinder , how can I be sure ?
But before I buy a master cylinder , how can I be sure ?
27 February 2013, 01:26 PM
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Gennerally on all cars ive bled is drivers side rear 1st even if LHD. opposite rear, same side front then drivers side front.
My older car had useless brakes. upped to 4 pots and this was better. Replaced the rear with new discs and pads and all sorted.
Was told by many that the 4 pots boil the fluid too easily.
On the new car changed to Brembos and bl**dy hell. Its stops now
My older car had useless brakes. upped to 4 pots and this was better. Replaced the rear with new discs and pads and all sorted.
Was told by many that the 4 pots boil the fluid too easily.
On the new car changed to Brembos and bl**dy hell. Its stops now
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27 February 2013, 02:25 PM
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so Tez you say rear left, rear right, front right, rear left? I'll give it a try ...
Yes I know I should get the brembos but I cant afford them as I would have to buy discs, wheels, hubs , etc as well ...
Yes I know I should get the brembos but I cant afford them as I would have to buy discs, wheels, hubs , etc as well ...
27 February 2013, 02:41 PM
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Finish with front left, nearest to survo/master cylinder. Remember that my brakes got better mainly because i fitted new to the rear. Took up all the travel in the pedle.
27 February 2013, 05:19 PM
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tought that the right size discs came only in 5x114 , I will think about it but I'd rather get the 4 pots to work properly as I've just spent 500 £ for discs , pads , seals and refurbishing ... 
Can someone please tell me if there is a way to understand if the master cylinder is leaking?
Can someone please tell me if there is a way to understand if the master cylinder is leaking?
27 February 2013, 06:39 PM
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I've always bled my brakes from the furthest away from the servo working my way in so nsr, osr, nsf and osf to finish with, and if you think its air in the system then open the bleed nipple and let it self bleed keeping an eye on the fluid level, I personally have never had an issue doing it this way, only once I had a problem on a car (can't think to hand what it was) but the pedal was still crap to feel, turns out it had to have the ignition on or the car running so the abs pump would allow the fluid through, for some reason it wouldn't bleed tidy with the ignition off, which I found really strange as I have only come across it once 
27 February 2013, 07:31 PM
#20
flushing that amount of fluid through and the fact you did have a decent pedal at one point would lead me to believe you may well have fried the pads
firstly remove and inspect the pads and see if they have "crumbled" as this may be the cause of your pedal issues
firstly remove and inspect the pads and see if they have "crumbled" as this may be the cause of your pedal issues
27 February 2013, 08:18 PM
#21
Hi
It sounds to me like you have not bedded the brakes in enough before going onto the track and you have cooked them , the brakes need bedding in properly just for fast road use , for track days its even more important.
You need to do about 300 miles of normal driving , then a series of hard high speed stops putting more and more heat into them , this has to be done before taking it onto the track , with any new discs and pads youfit , if the pads have crumbled around the edges then they have had too much heat to early into them , and if you have melted the seals then they have had some serious heat into them.
Email me pictures of the pads , you might get away with cleaning them up with sand paper to take the top layer off for them to work if they are cooked
Cheers Ian
It sounds to me like you have not bedded the brakes in enough before going onto the track and you have cooked them , the brakes need bedding in properly just for fast road use , for track days its even more important.
You need to do about 300 miles of normal driving , then a series of hard high speed stops putting more and more heat into them , this has to be done before taking it onto the track , with any new discs and pads youfit , if the pads have crumbled around the edges then they have had too much heat to early into them , and if you have melted the seals then they have had some serious heat into them.
Email me pictures of the pads , you might get away with cleaning them up with sand paper to take the top layer off for them to work if they are cooked
Cheers Ian
28 February 2013, 06:19 PM
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these are the pads... although they are fried its not because of them that the pedal is spongy ! the braking is good if you press the pedal enough.
I believe there is air in the abs lines... should I try to bleed with the engine on ?
I believe there is air in the abs lines... should I try to bleed with the engine on ?
28 February 2013, 07:40 PM
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Unfortunately the pads have got some grease on them in the first km of use, it came out of the calipers dust seals... after that I had the pads sanded and they looked fine, I used them for a couple of days prior to go to the track.... maybe they have absorberd the grease and have crumbled because of this ?
28 February 2013, 07:42 PM
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Poor pedal because of the pads? because the surface is warped and there is no more even contact between pads and discs ?
Do you suggest me to get new pads before trying to bleed the brakes again?
Do you suggest me to get new pads before trying to bleed the brakes again?
28 February 2013, 07:46 PM
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28 February 2013, 08:42 PM
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these were ebc orangestuff pads... they are indicated as "track only pads" , there is even a label with it on the box ! so they must be suited for track use , I want to believe that I haven't bedded em in correctly !
Rear pads are also ebc orangestuff, but the rear brakes have never reached this high temps so they still are fine.
Discs are definitely not warped or cracked because they don't judder at all, car handles fine .
However I'm still not persuaded that the pads could cause a spongy pedal...
Rear pads are also ebc orangestuff, but the rear brakes have never reached this high temps so they still are fine.
Discs are definitely not warped or cracked because they don't judder at all, car handles fine .
However I'm still not persuaded that the pads could cause a spongy pedal...