Hatch WRX

iTrader: (1)

Hi There
I hought I'd share my Lydden trackday experience yesterday and check with members whether my expectations were too high....or I was just unlucky!
I have an 03 Wagon in good condition with following spec:
- full de-cat & re-mapped (last week!)
- full Whiteline performance pack
- BC coilovers
- Black Diamond Discs F&R and Red Stuff pads & 4 Dot fluid.

At the end of my first session, about 20 laps of building up speed etc, (I had the instructor alongside me so everything being done properly), I had complete brake failure!
Pedal to the floor & no slowing.

An interesting experience!

Managed to crawl back to pits & left it all to cool off with the hope of continuing later in the morning.
But, on inspection the brake pads looked rather discoloured & overheated and there was a crack in the disc from the outside to the hub !

Day over by 10:00

I bought the car with the brakes already 'upgraded' and was thinking this was a reasonable basis for an occasional track day.

The upgrade was done just over a year ago about 7000 miles ago.
The car's used at weekends & not abused!

Am I being a bit optimistic in expecting more life from the brakes and that they would stay intact?

Comments please....


The upside of the day was that I met Chris (from Southampton) & Sue (from Cambridge).
Upon hearing of my news Chris very generously allowed me 10 laps in his rather useful Lichfield!
A fabulous gesture from a charming couple I'd only met that morning!
How about that for a Subaru comaraderie moment!
This kept me cheerful on my slow journey home, many many thanks!

dunx

iTrader: (3)

Fluid is the first place to look, the discs and pads can't work if the fluid has boiled.

HTH

dunx

P.S. Brembos and STI alloys are a good upgrade if you are serious about trackwork. IMHO.

P.P.S. You weren't trying hard enough, I boiled mine in three laps at Blyton, and they are very short laps...

P1 LTD

What a nice gesture from chris & sue

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

It sounds a little unlucky, the dot 4 a fully synth you put in there (people will swear that the 5.1 is better but its not true, a good fully synth .4 is as good as a 5.1), and were the discs grooved/drilled etc?

Tony

JohnD

iTrader: (5)

Hi - Good to meet you at North Weald today! That rain pretty well curtailed action for the day!
I guess you've no idea whether the Red Stuff's were latest generation pads? As Red Stuff are NOT for track use (Latest generation Yellow Stuff or Blue Stuff are better) I've got a feeling they've overheated to the point of glazing which means you need to press a bl**dy sight harder which in turn has increased the temp of the disc to the point of surface cracking, especially as you had drilled discs?
Even if the discs were retrievable you should remove those pads and bin them!
You should talk to someone like Allyn at AS Performance for a good road/track combo.

JohnD

The Pink Ninja

iTrader: (23)

From previous experience the standard 4 pot caliper regardless of disc or pad is not good enough for use on track and WILL result in brakefade/failure in the end, The calipers are too small IMO and get too hot which in turn transfers heat to the fluid/pads which then results in the problems you have, Brembo`s are much better with a bigger caliper, disc and pad which spreads the heat out to give better braking,

Some people will probably disagree with me here but this is what i found after trying 3 different sets of discs and numerous sets of pads on my last WRX before getting a bigger brake set up.

Gaz.

JonMc

iTrader: (51)

+1, and add to that the fact that the calipers are steel they are not great at dissipating the heat and add to the problem - STI calipers are alloy as are a lot of aftermarket items which helps to dissipate the heat and keep the overall braking system cooler

Hatch WRX

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for replies.
Yes, the discs were drilled & grooved.
It's also only using Subaru calipers at F&R.

I have tried to post a couple of pics but have failed! Not sure where I'm going wrong...

JohnD - good to meet you too. The rain did rather spoil things. Pity there were not a few more Subaru's there. I don't know the version of the pads, I will be speaking to Scoobyworld to get their thoughts as they did all the original work.

GAZ - sounds like good advice. The discs I had were not as large as some I've seen and I guess surface area is key along with the calipers & pads & fluid selection.

Time for an upgrade I think. I'm happy to hear suggestions.

kad 16v

I got there just after lunch when chris and sue went to the garage for food, they came back and i had parked pretty much next to them which was a shock to both of us as we both have litchfield Type 20's (his blob mine hawk) but have to agree what a smashing pair, such nice people very chatty.

Such a shame your day was brought to an end but as above, steel calipers get to hot and cant cool quick enough rendering your brakes useless when they have overheated.

If your looking to upgrade your brakes give KAD (kent auto developments) a look, their brakes are on a par with brembo and the like, i have a set of the 6 pot calipers on my 150bhp old type mini and that has been round the track with mini miglia champ bill sollis at the wheel and he couldnt fault them and he certainly couldnt make them overheat

I would have them on my type 20 but i dont want to start taking bits off of it although as i know kad quite well instead of having kad engraved on the caliper i could have Type 20 lol

I have had just grooved discs and drilled and grooved discs on the mini and found that the drilled cracked up alot faster with heavy use but did look better lol

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

Well I doubt you will be getting drilled discs again for the track grooved is all you need, drilled do have a tendency to crack under hard use due to expansion/contraction, they find the weakness in the metal and you get the outcome you have where the crack goes from the drilled hole to the outer edge of the disc....

Bigger brake setup for track then eh?

Tony

Hatch WRX

iTrader: (1)

Blimey two Lichfield Type 20's @ Lydden! Did you get on track too?
Chris & Sue were great!
I will look into KAD (I've seen Bill race many many times, I'm a bit of an old Mini fan too!).

I'm definitely hearing; larger discs, grooved not drilled, alloy not steel calipers.

JonMc

iTrader: (51)

Also worth looking at second-hand STI set-ups and k-sport - both are good value upgrades

kad 16v

yep i couldnt belive it either and that i had parked up pretty much next to them when they had popped out.

No track time for me just went up with a few others that were on the the track, due to a Op a few months back i cant pull my seatbelt tight yet so would have been rolling out of my seat gutted though.

You may have to phone them for a price and they aint cheap so if its cheaper your after as said above snap up some second hand brembo's

If your into minis i have the full KAD setup at 150BHP as featured on the ultimate mini extreme DVD, i wont hijack the thread but here she is (if anyone want to know any more please pm me, as said dont wanna hijack the thread)

Bill sometims runs the KAD engine in his clubman and boy does it go, 45s round lydden in a mini lol great fun

dazdavies

iTrader: (22)

I've had that combination of pads and disks on my old UK Classic.

They were crap on the road in that never mind on a heavier car on track.

For track work I dont think there is any combination of disks and pads that work well enough on the standard earlier subaru Calipers.

As mentioned above the first upgrade would be to Newage brembos.

I'm going to be going the Ksport route on my Type R

stockcar

we must have imagined all of those grpN cars we managed top keep out of ditches over the years then........

it can and has been done, however it all depends on how much you want to spend/cost effectiveness and everything must be in tip-top condition

alyn

dunx

iTrader: (3)

Brembos are huge and your wheels will need to go if you buy some...

K-Sports are more compact and I've seen them used with WRX alloys.

HTH

dunx

mark@wrx

+1 Alyn. It isn't always necessary to go for oversized brakes. The right combination of pads, lines and fluid are the critical areas. It's an amazing thing to have the discs glowing red but the brakes still work perfectly well.

Hatch WRX

iTrader: (1)

The K Sport's appear good value on the face of it.
The Brembo's are probably a bit out of my budget range.
Are they really twice as good as the K Sports?
I have 18" wheels on my Wagon...
So, for fast road and track day use would it be best to go for the 330 or 356 ?
I'm assuming the 304 wouldn't offer a significant improvement over the current and the 330 are similarly priced anyway.

JohnD

iTrader: (5)

If you're considering Ksport, this GB might still be on?
https://www.scoobynet.com/group-buys...kit-799-a.html
I've heard that the actual Ksport pads are not up to much so select something better.
Unless I'm mistaken, the Ksport's are from the same factory as your suspension?

JohnD

Hatch WRX

iTrader: (1)

Thanks JohnD.
I sent an enquiry email over to KSport bit earlier.
I think I'll be calling around a few suppliers of the K Sports to get best deal.

Moley

iTrader: (9)

Lydden Hill is a killer for brakes.

My friend cooked his there doing about 10 laps

Hatch WRX

iTrader: (1)

Solution to my brakes dilema:-

A few discussions with Ian Godney - very informative & patient!

Car is now fitted with new Godspeed grooved discs all round.
Fronts are 335mm. Rear are standard size.
Have kept the Subaru calipers.
Pads are Bluestuff all round.
Fluid is 5.1

All fitted & sorted by Extreme Scoobies.

Now being patient & bedding them in before trying them out properly!

RetroMk1

iTrader: (1)

I did a similar setup and all is good now, i was suffering with brakes feeling a bit soft after a few laps so i changed to braided hoses and a brake stooper, feel really sharp now