Podge

Can anybody confirm what road pads Prodrive recommend for MY00 std UK Turbo? I think they use Ferrodos.

How do these perform against the factory fitted pads and against Mintex M1155?

I find that the Mintex squeal, create loads of brake dust, are hard on the standard disks, and are poor when cold. On the other hand I must say that are excellent when hot and won't give up too easily when pushing the car hard.

Thanks.

Andy W

Ferrodo DS2000
Available from your dealer or TSL motorsport

Hoppy

DS2000 pads are excellent, but the fact that you want upgraded pads suggests you're quite hard on the brakes. Which means you'll warp the discs before long. Best to upgrade the discs at the same time, also from Prodrive. £500 but good.

Richard.

Podge

Thanks guys.

GaryC

...but Mintex pads are a 'spec' above the ferrodo.

DS2000 are fast road pads, and cost 140ukp per set from dealer/prodrive
1155s are race spec pads, give better performance, less fade and cost 60ukp per set from numerous places

and bed them in properly, and the 1155s won't squeal.

No brainer in my book, 1155s everytime


Good advice to change disks, for disks, BUT 500ukp for a set of disks??? do they wear a black mask at the time?? very reputable Gp N discs are available from most suppliers from 100ukp per set.

I got pads, discs, braided hoses, BSB, DOT 5.1 fluid all for 250ukp That gave me stopping power to make your head hurt, and no fade on or of track

[This message has been edited by GaryC (edited 03 June 2001).]

Podge

Thanks for the suggestion Gary.

In terms of stopping power the Mintex M1155's are excellent. I have not used the Ferrodo DS2000's yet so I can't comment on them. The one thing I'm sure about is that I certainly would not like to loose stopping power if I change the pads.

Prodrive must use Ferrodo for a reason. They will hardly put up with the problems I've had with the Mintex. Maybe I'm being unfair to Mintex, but you can read the problems for yourself below and then see what you think.

Maybe Prodrive have some comments themselves?

There are three main reasons why I'm thinking of changing to the Ferrodo's:

1. The Mintex can surprise you a little when cold i.e. first couple of stops out of the house in the morning. This is no big deal once you get used to them, but I'd hate to have to stop suddenly. After 5 minutes or so under normal driving conditions they are fine. From this point on they get better and better especially when pushed hard.

2. They produce a serious amount of brake dust, which has to be removed from the alloy wheels regularly. I put up with this, because the stopping power is so good.

3. They SQUEAL something wicked. They are so bad that you can't have the window down in slow moving traffic or around town. I've had two sets in the front now, both with the same result. They are around 5000 miles up on the second set now and these are not as noisy as they were when first installed.

Both sets were bed in using the manufacturers instructions i.e. three stops from 30 to zero, three from 60 to 30, and three from 90 to 30. The car was then left standing for half an hour. Then SQUEAL.

The pads don't squeal when hot i.e. after a fast run, but they don't take long to cool down. Then SQUEAL. The fast run removes any graze from the pads also.

I could try replacing the standard disks for some Group N ones, but this means replacing the pads also. I'm afraid if I do this with the Mintex M1155 pads then the squeal will remain. Then another set of pads, probably the Ferrodos and so on.

I'd appreciate any remidy for the squeal at this stage, even one that reduced the noise somewhat.

Thanks again.

SteveH

Mike

As an interim to getting the P1 Brake upgrade, will these pads improve my P1's braking?

Cheers
Steve

MikeWood

Yes!

GaryC

The squeal shouldn't be THAT bad - as I had three sets of 1155s and never got a squeal except once after a heavy track sesh when they had been glazed (£20 cash in hand to a garage to de-glaxed them with a wire brush sorted it out). When bedding 1155s in, try...

5 stops from 40 to 0, followed immediatly by 3 or 4 medium pressure 80 to 30, followed immediately by 2 or 3 hard 80 to 30, then a 5 minute drive without usung the brakes to let them cool down. Voila - bedded in pads!! THEN everytime you use the car just do a couple of gentle stops to warm the pads, and make sure when you come off the motorway or long (brake cooling) stint on the A-roads, you don't just plant your foot on cold brakes, as this will cause the pads to glaze and discs to crack Five minutes on the motorway at 70mph will cool red-hot brakes (calipers/discs/pads) to 'ice cold'!!

All pads of the same spec as the 1155 (ie race spec eg DS3000, Red Stuff, Pagid Blues etc) will not work as well from cold, and will need a couple of applications to get them to operating temperature, but IMO even first cold application performance is comparable to the OEM pads??

The dust problem IS an 1155 trait, and one that you can't really cure, although WW waxing your wheels once a month will mean you can virtually rinse the dust off, and certainly clean with just soap and water. The Pagids are better than the 1155s for dust, but do cost well over twice as much

Prodrive use Ferrodo, as Mintex wouldn't supply on an exclusive basis, Ferrodo would! Prodrive used Mintex up to and including MY98 spec!

If not losing stopping performance is of prime importance, don't drop from a race spec pad to a fast road pad - I did (1155s to DS2000s) and swapped back within a fortnight. If squealing is really that bad, try Pagids (over twice the cost), Red Stuff (worse for cold performance) or the Ferrodo DS3000 (even worse for brake dust and 'molten residue' )

MikeWood

We use Ferodo DS2000 after testing many alternatives, including M1155.
They give better performance on 99MY cars than M1155 and don't squeal. Despite the claims they actually faded less than M1155 in the tests we did (10 stops from 100mph) and are kinder on the discs.

Mike

Podge

Thanks for all the help guys. I'll try the Ferrodo DS2000 and see what the difference is like.

I have just two final questions:

Are the pads the main factor in brake squeal?

The disks don't look that worn yet, but I'm prepared to replace them with the pads if that eliminates the squeal. Is this necessary?

Ian Sutton

Podge the DS2000's come in a box of 4 so you only need one box to make a set and they are £75 or thereabouts (for AP 4 pots). I bought two box's a couple of weeks back from Hi-tech in Dartford thinking they came in Pairs. If they are £140.00 as Gary C suggested to fit Subaru 4 pot pad shape then Prodrive have definately pulled a fast one and are ripping off/cornering the market.


As far as squealling I find they do a bit in slow trafic (dabbing the brakes) but there is no noise on hard braking/track.

...Ian

GaryC

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ian Sutton:
<B>
If they are £140.00 as Gary C suggested to fit Subaru 4 pot pad shape then Prodrive have definately pulled a fast one and are ripping off/cornering the market.
[/quote]


My lips are sealed

But whilst Prodrive have an exclusive arrangement with Ferrodo to supply the Subaru 4-pot pads, the Nissan 300ZX uses identical pads (same part number), which can be sourced substantially cheaper. I got mine for around £45 for a set - a bit cheaper than the £140 the dealer/Prodrive wanted

Still only kept them on for a fortnight before talking them back and exchanging back to 1155s as I was dissappointed with the loss in braking performance

Darren Thompson

I'm with Gary C on this one the 1155's get my vote every time for value and performance, this is why we use them in the rally car guys.

Darren.

Ian Sutton

I get ya!

So basically for a Subaru 4 pot the DS2000's aren't up to scratch and Mintex are favoured, whereas for my AP 4 pot 17 inch kit they are the best thing since sliced bread only seconded to the much more expensive Pagid blues.

This is obviously a brake kit thing and I won't confuse the thread any further.

..Have fun, Ian

GaryC

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ian Sutton:
<B>
I get ya!

So basically for a Subaru 4 pot the DS2000's aren't up to scratch and Mintex are favoured, whereas for my AP 4 pot 17 inch kit they are the best thing since sliced bread only seconded to the much more expensive Pagid blues.

This is obviously a brake kit thing and I won't confuse the thread any further.

..Have fun, Ian [/quote]

Its not that the Ferrodo DS2000 arn't 'upto scratch', they are just a lower spec pad. In the same way, a BMW 325 is a great car and has distinct advantages over the 330, but the 330 will 'perform' better as it is a higher spec!

Have you tried the 1155s in the APs? I know a number of owners who swear by the 1155s in their APs

chiark

GaryC - could you let me know a source of the 1155s at a decent price?

Also, any recommendation for a particular disc to suit?

carl

Has anyone tried the Mintex 1144s? Supposedly better for road use?

1155s are available from Scoobymania (AFAIK) and Scoobynet Shop.

[This message has been edited by carl (edited 05 June 2001).]

GaryC

Falkland performance are always competitive, but I used to get better prices from local motorsports suppliers by haggling

Disc-wise, there are dozens to choose from, I used Bremsport Gp N grooved, worked very well, and only cost me £120

Mintex 1144s are a fast road spec pad (same 'spec' as DS2000/EBC green stuff etc). Never used myself, will work better from cold, but there will be a performance trade-off!

Stef

Gary.
The Mintex equivalent of the DS2000 is the 1155. The 1166's are the equivalent of the DS3000's, and I believe there are also 1177's??
Mike from Prodrive has just said that they tested the 1155's and the DS2000's amonst others and the DS2000's were the better all-round pad. I have been told similar by AP as well, who obviously test most pads on their brake dyno, but this relates to the pads on AP set-ups, not standard Scooby ones. It's obvious in your set-up you prefer the 1155's, and as long as everyone's happy that's the main thing.
I've also heard abouth this Nissan pad thing but haven't found anyone who could get them for the prices you mention.
Where did you get yours from?

Stef.

GaryC

Interested in your comments Stef.

Both the 1144s and DS2000s (and green stuff) are described by the manufacturers as Fast road pads.

The 1155s are officially 'not for road use' (as detailed in the packet) as I am told are the DS3000/Pagids/Red Stuff. The Manufacturers describe these as 'Race or Competition pads'

I do agree that it is the best pads for your brake set up AND personal preference. A large number of AP users I speak to prefer 1155s as they feel they give better performance. I can back that up albeit on standard 4-pots with better discs. The DS2000s faded on the road let alone the track (1155s never even faded in track for me), and didn't give anywhere near the stopping power I got with the 1155s. When I contacted Ferrodo about my dissatisfaction, they told me their DS2000s weren't the same spec and thus comparable to the 1155s - hence why they arranged for a refund!

There are 1166s (don't know about 1177s??). but these are harder to get as they are dangerous on the road as they take 4 or 5 applications to get up to operating temperature and are virtually useless when cold.

The Nissan thing is true. I ordered the 300ZX DS2000s from a little car spares place (AB Spares or something similar) on Preston Road in Whittle-le-Woods, Chorley (I used to live close-by). He had to order them and wait a week for them, but they came and fit, and IIRC cost c£45. TAS in Leyland can also get them. If you ring any Mintex supplier and ask for the part number for the 300zx front pads, it will be MDB1416 - same part number as the Scooby 4-pot

Re the Prodrive thing, Prodrive used to recommend and use the 1155s upto and including MY98. I was told by Prodrive themselves (and two dealers) the main reason for the change was that Mintex wouldn't supply the pads exclusively to Prodrive. If they had been the best pad before 1999, what happened to them to make them not the best pad in 1999 and after

The DS2000s may well be the better 'allround' pad, as the 1155s (and other higher spec pads) do take longer to get up to working temperature and will/can be noisier, but do perform better - all down to compromises In much the same way, the RB5 WR is considered to be the best 'allround' Impreza, but the STi5 and 22B are still faster

gregh

which can be sourced substantially cheaper. I got mine for around £45 for a set - a bit cheaper than the £140 the dealer/Prodrive wanted

&gt;&gt; Interesting, when I ran DS2000s I rang/emailed loads of places, and never found anywhere that would supply either the Nissan or Scooby one. Got to £120 odd as the cheapest.

cheers,
greg

MikeWood

Gary

We did not stop using the Mintex pads because they weren't exclusive. We superceeded them because we found something better!

Our testing proved conclusively that DS2000 gave better performance than M1155 in all the tests we undertook.

Podge

I seemed to have sparked off a healthy discussion on Ferrodo DS2000 v's Mintex M1155 pads.

Anyhow, I'm going to try the Ferrodo pads with MY00 STD front disks. They should be in early next week. I'll let you know how it goes. It may take a 100 miles to bed them, after that I should know if there is any difference.

I can clarify that the M1155's come in a box with the words "Not for use on the public highway" written clearly on them. I wonder will the Ferrodo box say something similar?

This leads to another question... What are the insurance implications associated with using competition pads v's fast road pads? Are you covered if the box says "not for road use"?

Bear in mind that Insurance companies are experts in not paying when it suits them.

GaryC

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by MikeWood:
<B>

Our testing proved conclusively that DS2000 gave better performance than M1155 in all the tests we undertook.

[/quote]


Except price eh? £140 vs £60??


As I said - I was just going on information I was told by Prodrive and two dealers

MikeWood

Gary

£60 + a pair of discs when the M1155 have worn them out before the DS2000 would have

Mike

MTR

Edited to remove spurious info about Partco supply of M1155 pads, posted by myself earlier.

Hello all,
Sorry but it looks like Partco may have got their wires crosed.
I went to pick upo my M1155 compound pads today, and they had recieved MDB1155M1155 pads.
The MDB1155 is the part number (the wrong part number by the way) the M1155 is the correct compound, but what car the pads were for I have no idea.

Steve, the chap that took my order wasn't in, so we were unable to establish if he knew the correct part number for the Impreza, and the Mintex book doesn't list a different pad for the 4 pot equipped cars, just one pad for all models.
Or at least the Mintex book they had only listed 1 type.

I have established that Mintex MDB1416 and Ferodo FDB986 are the pad style listed for one of the variants of the Nissan 300ZX ( I think during one of my phone cals to differing companies, someone told me it was a pre 1994?).

But I have yet to see a catalogue either Mintex/Ferodo that states a specific pad style for the Subaru 4 pots, that are obviously different than the 2 pot sliding caliper pre MY99 cars.

The chap at my local Halfords is going to try and establish a part number and then price tommorrow for me.

Oh well, I knew it had to be too good to be true.

Cheers MTR



[This message has been edited by MTR (edited 12 June 2001).]

GaryC

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by MikeWood:
<B>Gary

£60 + a pair of discs when the M1155 have worn them out before the DS2000 would have

Mike[/quote]


Touche!!

Dave Coulshaw

Mike, so let me get this right, Prodrive used to sell performance pads that prematurely wore discs out, but now that you have found some that don't, you feel justified in charging almost a 100quid premium?? No wonder you can afford to buy Tickford if you make close to a 200% mark-up??

Please tell me this isn't true?


If I went for MTR's 1155s at c45quid, would the 95quid saving over the Prodrive ds2000s buy uprated discs aswell? Surely this would even further improve braking etc?

Hoppy

All I would say about Prodrive is that their kit is very good, it has full Subaru warranty, and I've found their customer service excellent. Not so sure about all Subaru dealers, but that's not Prodrive's fault.

Try some DS2000 pads and then see if they're good value.

I've got APR 6-pots and with Pagid RS421 pads they're just fab. How much do you think a new set of pads are? £258

Richard