Matt Churchill

A million dollar question I know, but if I only use my car for keen road driving, no track days, is it really worth the extra £1000 to go for a complete upgrade a la Scoobysport, or would upgrading the pads and disks be good enough?

I like the look of the EBC pads and discs - is this as good as anything else, or is the Pagid any better?

I know it is all down to opinion, but any advice help would be appreciated.

Confused of Gloucester,

Matt

TopCat

Matt,

Do you have 4 pot's? if so great!

I would change to black diamond / padgid discs, and pagid, mintex, ebc as pads.

Change the hoses worth doing if all the wheels and brakes are coming off anyway, you get a much harder feel of the peddle and dot 5 brake fluid to reduce the high temp and fad.

I did the same when I had 2 pots it was much better than the std stuff, but 4 pot is the way to go.

I run 20psi and drive the car hard no fad, well for the first 30 mins.

Next stage AP/brembo (Track freaks)


Hope this helps


Tc

WALKER

Ive got the std 4 pot calipers on my Type R. i`ve also fitted Black Diamond Grooved discs and Mintex 1155 pads along with hoses and brake support bracket(all available from Mike at Scoobymania).

Huge improvement over std discs and pads, much better feel and stopping power. Couldnt beleive the differance the brake support bracket made.

I think that you`ve got to be going some on the public roads to want anything much better than this setup, but on track its a different kettle of fish.

I`ll need to start doing a lot of track days before i would justify spending £1000+ on APs or the like, but then again...........

Paul

Matt Churchill

Guys,

Thanks for the help - I should've said I've got a UK99 - so it's got 4 pots.

Slightly off topic, but is there anything to choose between pads. Are drilled better than grooved, or is a combi better again?

From what people have said I think it is just the pads and disks to do. Anybody out there done pads/disks then gone to full change?

Cheers

Matt

Hoppy

Matt, good question and there doesn't appear to be a definitive answer. TC talks sense. And various people have said good things about EBC/Greenstuff. I also feel certain that the Prodrive upgraded discs and pads would do the trick - £500.

This would make a good subject for the next edition of ScoobyNews - take a few different kits to Bruntingthorpe and see which ones give up, and which ones measure up. Problem is, would the manufacturers donate kit for possible destruction testing? That question in itself might produce some revealing answers!

I'll take it up with Webmaster Simon de Bank. Sorry I can't be of more help right now.

Richard

Bas

Moe

How ya doin m8?

My brakes feel a bit dodgy at the moment so I think I might have to spend some dosh on them anyway.

If I took the opportunity to go for a 4 pot upgrade, how much am I looking at spending? (Finances are a bit tight at the moment...this damn car's costing me too much!)

By the way Moe, my Scoob still feels great after you sorted it...cheers m8.

Matt

Moe gave me a ride in his car the other week and if you've got 2 pots like I have, you definitely notice the difference. Like you though, I'm wondering whether it's worth spending £1,000+ on them just for road use...I'm hoping there's a cheaper upgrade available that will still do a decent job.

Cheers

Bas

Darren Thompson

Go for a Mintex pad every time, I tried EBC Red Stuff and they were crap compared to the Mintex, they faded quicker and wore out far to quickly. The extra cost of Mintex pads is due to the old saying of what you pay for is what you get, I have got Mintex 1155 pads on standard disks and AP brake fluid and have no problems at all.

Darren.

Matt Churchill

Paul, is it just the fronts you've changed?

Darren, how long have you had that set up - I always thought that if you uprated pads you had to disks as well and vice versa?

Matt

dela

Matt,

On the disc choice front, as far as I can ascertain the logic is:

Drilled : Designed to aid cooling, but more prone to cracking if you get them really hot.

Grooved : Desgined to keep the face of the pad clean and expel (sp?) gases which build up.

Combi : Both of the above.

Being a MY99 car you should consider how much cooling the brakes will get, as AFAIK you don't have a duct that runs from the front surround?

My personal preference is a grooved disc with ducting, I'm just saving the pennies at the moment though.

dela

mutant_matt

Hi Matt - how are you?

All I'll say is, get a Brake Support Bracket first as there are loads and loads of people who have already testified to how good this is (and it's only £50). I've got one but being a lazy sod haven't got round to putting it on yet. Must do that soon. As soon as I've put mine on I'll let you know what I think.

Once you've got one of these, then start upgrading the other stuff....(IMHO )

Matt.

Gary Foster

I put a brake support bracket on last night, and I can confirm there is a definite difference. Doesn't make any difference if you are braking gently, it only helps when you are braking hard.

If I press my pedal when stopped it goes down a bit, gets a bit squidgy then stops solid - before hand it never stopped going down.

Strange thing to get used to is lifting off the brakes, before as soon as I lifted of very slightly the brakes would immediately stop braking - now if I lift of a little the brakes continue to brake but less well.

Hope that all makes some sense ? it seems though it's done what it said it would do and I certainly prefer the less spongy pedal and it is easier to adjust how much braking you are doing.

Gary

Darren Thompson

The Mintex and EBC pads have a grove cut in them to aid with the cleaning of the face of the pad and obversely not as good as grooved disks as well, but the standard under warranty disk and the Mintex 1155 pad are so much better than the standard pad and the EBC pad. You can run a standard disk with uprated pads no problems at all, but an uprated disk and pad are the best.

Darren.

Matt Churchill

Darren,

Yeah I think if anything I would go for both disk and pad - I like the look of the Diamond disks, and maybe the Mintex pad are 1155 better than 1144? I suppose the other thing to consider is how much mess comes off them, I don't want to be always cleaning the wheels - or at least no more than I need to now!!

Dela - are you saying therefore that the best ones to go for with my car are the drilled ones - is it very likely that they would crack just on road use - I know I'm hard on brakes, but that hard?

Matt

Sigmund

I see some people here advice you to use Black Diamond discs. I would strongly discurage you from using those as they will warp when used hard. True they give improved braking up to a point but when you get there they suck. I speak from experience.

Go for AP-racing discs and calipers. I my opinion that's the only way to do it right.

"Do it right and do it once" Whish I had done that....

Matt Churchill

Sigmund,

Are you saying that this happened on road use, or whewn you were on a track?

Matt

Matt Churchill

Matt - I'm good m8 how are you? Would you please stop being so lazy and get and fit the bracket!! and then if you could try half a dozen different pad and disk combination that would be good too

Gary - thanks for the info, I think it made sense, looks like that is my first stop.

I suppose at least that will give me more time to decide on the best (?) pad/disk option.

Matt

JasonHook

Matt

I don't think anyone that has condtributed to this thread uses Prodrive Uprated Pads/Disks (so far).

I've recently fitted Front Disks and Front and Rear pads. The Disks were s/h and the pads new. Total cost inc vat and labour was £440.

As a result I have improved bite and less fade. Not astounding improvement but for a lot less money than the AP/Brembo solutions it works ok for me.

You probably need to go to a SIDC meet and see if anyones prepared to demonstrate the difference.

Jason.

Darren Thompson

Jason that Prodrive brake conversion will be Mintex pads then and Standard disk material with grooves cut in. The only difference is the grooves on a 2 pot caliper setup on my MY98.

Darren.

SteveB

iTrader: (1)

Matt,

I had the same dilema last year. I too don't do any track days but just spirited b road stuff(Exmoor) that really tested the standard set up. I had braided hoses and 5.1 fluid and found these firmed the pedal but ultimately didn't improve braking.
On a couple of Exmoors I needed extended stops due to my brake pedal extending to the floor with fade(and lots of smoke!). People on our runs with improved pads and disks (and 4 pots)were suffering the same problem as well.
In the end I was losing confidence in the braking completely so decided to go the whole hog and fit the Alcon kit(£1200) and can say his has been fantastic.
My worry was that spending £300 on disks and pads didn't to me seem like that much of an improvement. The problem after all with the std kit is the calipers(heat build up).

Regards

Steve.

Sigmund

Matt: Yes, the Black Diamond cross drilled discs warped from road use. I think I had had them for about a monyh or so when I noticed.

I think SteveB is onto something here: Whatever you do to the original brakes: Brackets, dot5 fluid, new pads or discs, it won't help. It will only improve the feel of the brakes. The problem is that the discs are too small (and the material isn't up to the job). To improve braking significantly you will need bigger discs that can get rid of more heat and improve the calipers leverage on the disc.
I have written a bit about this on my webpage:

kryten

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by SteveB:
<B>In the end I was losing confidence in the braking completely so decided to go the whole hog and fit the Alcon kit(£1200) and can say his has been fantastic.[/quote]

Steve, did you really manage to get the Alcons for £1200 - was this new including fitting & VAT?? (Just been quoted £1600....)

Andy Gough

I've tried standard discs, brembo Gpn discs, tarox discs and they all warp. brembo's were the worst, lasting nearly a whole week!

Black Diamond discs seem to work the best, although eventually they start to crack. They still outlast all the others though.

If you look at all the different discs, they all appear to have the same casting number - eg the raw disc is made by the same manufacturer.

Different heat treatments to the disc seem to give it different longevity profiles.

Discs which are made for road use always seem to warp before they crack, whilst pukka competition discs seem able to survive extremes of heat whilst maintaining their warp free character. Comp. discs eventually start to display radial cracks, but still do not warp.

SteveB

iTrader: (1)

Kryten,

Yep, Thats what it cost me.

Although fitting was on top of that figure(1 hour)
Three of us did a deal with our local dealer.

Have you tried the 10% SIDC discount ? Lots of dealers are offering it.

Steve.

Matt Churchill

Steve,

Did you use Tiley's for the upgrade?

I know that I should know the answer, but what does the Alcon kit include?

Cheers,

Matt

Hoppy

A small point. It has been suggested above that the Prodrive disc/pad upgrade is just standard discs with grooves cut in them and Mintex pads. It is not.

The Prodrive brake/disc upgrade is completely different discs (larger, superior material, grooved) and Ferodo DS2000 pads. Discs £329, pads (exclusive to Prodrive) £164. Matching rear pads are £88, all inc VAT plus fitting.

Richard

PS The fundamental problem with Impreza brakes if the disc. The calipers are the least of your worries.

Matt Churchill

Richard,

when you say the DS2000 are exclusive - are they different to the normal ones in some way, I seem to remember seeing them in a Demon Tweeks catalogue.

Are the standard disks just not up to the job, or is there more to it than that? I suppose the other thing is that any dealer upgrade is covered by a warranty!

I must admit I was discounting this as an option - just seemed to forget!

Ta,

Matt

Hoppy

Hi Matt. Standard Subaru discs are the weakest link (goodbye, etc ho ho). Pads are also hopeless, but if you upgrade them you'll warp the disc.

If I was going for a fast road set up, it would be the Prodrive discs with DS2000 pads front and rear, plus 5.1 fluid. More expensive than some other upgrades, but given the lack of comparitive info I'd back the Prodrive brand/warranty.

If you're going on track, frankly nothing except the full disc/pads/caliper upgrade will last long. APR, Prodrive, Brembo - take your pic, they're all superb.

The Ferodo DS2000 pads are exclusive to Prodrive in the Subaru fitting.

I've got braided hoses and the brake support bracket thingy mentioned above. I can't say I've honestly noticed any difference from either. The Prodrive/Alcon 330mm upgrade doesn't even change the rubber hoses but still gets rave reviews.

Richard.

Andy W

Guys sorry to correct you but TSL motorsport

SteveB

iTrader: (1)

Matt,

Correct with the dealer.

I investigated upgrading my brakes for a fair while and came to the conclusion that to increase to stopping effect and reduce fade i'd have to:
A. increase the disc diam to impart more leverage.
B. Change fron cast iron calipers to Aluminium.(most significant improvement!!)

To me, changing pads and dics wasn't going to make a significant difference. Obviously I can't comment on this upgrade as I went straight to the full Alcon kit.

Matt, If you want a demo of what this can do let me know, we're not that far apart.

Steve.

SteveB

iTrader: (1)

Matt,

Sorry forgot your other question.

Alcon kit includes(now) 330mm discs, 4 pot aluminium calipers(very nice looking) plus DS2000 pads. i also paid £75 to replace my rear pads with the DS2000 as well.
You will need recent 17" wheels to fit this kit.

Steve