Brake fade?
15 May 2000, 10:15 AM
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With the great weather I have been enjoying driving a fair bit over the weekend.
I was pushing my car on saturday and had to brake from well over the speed limit to around 40 to make a corner. Ususally my brakes are very strong but on this occasion they just didn't bite and gave me a huge fright. I luckily wasn't pushing stupidly and had started braking far earlier than I thought was necessary which gave me enough extra room to slow down. I went home about 2 minutes later and all the way the brakes felt like they were only working at half their normal efficiency.
I have been giving the brakes abuse this morning trying to figue out if I can trust them or not and I'm really not sure what to think. They seem to feel better but they still don't bite like they did.
Considering I had new brembo disks and new Pagid pads put on about a month ago I can't believe that it is due to wear.
Could it be brake fade, and if so why did it happen so suddenly - one minute they were fine the next they were practically non existent? Should I change or upgrade my fluid? Has anyone had this happen?
Help and advice would be appreciated!
Thanks
Stu
I was pushing my car on saturday and had to brake from well over the speed limit to around 40 to make a corner. Ususally my brakes are very strong but on this occasion they just didn't bite and gave me a huge fright. I luckily wasn't pushing stupidly and had started braking far earlier than I thought was necessary which gave me enough extra room to slow down. I went home about 2 minutes later and all the way the brakes felt like they were only working at half their normal efficiency.
I have been giving the brakes abuse this morning trying to figue out if I can trust them or not and I'm really not sure what to think. They seem to feel better but they still don't bite like they did.
Considering I had new brembo disks and new Pagid pads put on about a month ago I can't believe that it is due to wear.
Could it be brake fade, and if so why did it happen so suddenly - one minute they were fine the next they were practically non existent? Should I change or upgrade my fluid? Has anyone had this happen?
Help and advice would be appreciated!
Thanks
Stu
15 May 2000, 01:03 PM
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Hi Stuart
This was brake fade and it does come on very suddenly.
Better pads will delay its onset and better discs will cope with the extra heat from the better pads, but... and its a big but, the size of the standard discs will not allow rapid cooling and it is possible to experience fade when blasting down country lanes. A big stop, from high speed, as you described will then often push the brakes over their heat capacity.
Mintex 1155 pads, once they have faded (not difficult), lose their resin and require about 1mm removing to bring them back to life. This is called de-glazing. We prefer to sell Pagid, as they do not glaze.
This was brake fade and it does come on very suddenly.
Better pads will delay its onset and better discs will cope with the extra heat from the better pads, but... and its a big but, the size of the standard discs will not allow rapid cooling and it is possible to experience fade when blasting down country lanes. A big stop, from high speed, as you described will then often push the brakes over their heat capacity.
Mintex 1155 pads, once they have faded (not difficult), lose their resin and require about 1mm removing to bring them back to life. This is called de-glazing. We prefer to sell Pagid, as they do not glaze.
15 May 2000, 01:04 PM
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Hi Stuart
This was brake fade and it does come on very suddenly.
Better pads will delay its onset and better discs will cope with the extra heat from the better pads, but... and its a big but, the size of the standard discs will not allow rapid cooling and it is possible to experience fade when blasting down country lanes. A big stop, from high speed, as you described will then often push the brakes over their heat capacity.
Mintex 1155 pads, once they have faded (not difficult), lose their resin and require about 1mm removing to bring them back to life. This is called de-glazing. We prefer to sell Pagid, as they do not glaze.
This was brake fade and it does come on very suddenly.
Better pads will delay its onset and better discs will cope with the extra heat from the better pads, but... and its a big but, the size of the standard discs will not allow rapid cooling and it is possible to experience fade when blasting down country lanes. A big stop, from high speed, as you described will then often push the brakes over their heat capacity.
Mintex 1155 pads, once they have faded (not difficult), lose their resin and require about 1mm removing to bring them back to life. This is called de-glazing. We prefer to sell Pagid, as they do not glaze.
15 May 2000, 01:46 PM
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Pete, thanks for the advice. I guess it was fade then! I'm not sure if you noticed, but I do actually have uprated discs and Pagid pads which I got from you! They have been brilliant compared to my standard ones until this incident. I'm a satisfied customer!
As they are pagid pads I guess they are not glazed, which means that something else has happened because they have lost some bite and the pedal feels more spongy now.
Could I have overheated the fluid and done it permanent damage? My guess is that the brakes need new fluid or bleeding because the pedal is now softer than it was.
Cheers
As they are pagid pads I guess they are not glazed, which means that something else has happened because they have lost some bite and the pedal feels more spongy now.
Could I have overheated the fluid and done it permanent damage? My guess is that the brakes need new fluid or bleeding because the pedal is now softer than it was.
Cheers
18 May 2000, 10:42 AM
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Hi Stef,
Mine worked "ok" from cold, but felt and worked much better with some heat in them. I found the pagids were quite aggressive to the disks, which is, of course, where the better feel and power came from in the first place.
I now run (or try to run
) brembo fast road pads, which work better from cold, give more than enough braking power to overload the tyres, don't eat the discs at the alarming rate the pagids did but do, as you would expect, start to fade sooner.
Moray
Mine worked "ok" from cold, but felt and worked much better with some heat in them. I found the pagids were quite aggressive to the disks, which is, of course, where the better feel and power came from in the first place.
I now run (or try to run
) brembo fast road pads, which work better from cold, give more than enough braking power to overload the tyres, don't eat the discs at the alarming rate the pagids did but do, as you would expect, start to fade sooner.Moray
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18 May 2000, 11:30 AM
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Well, I took it to my dealer and they found that my Pagid pads had glazed, but it was not due to the pads, it was due to some unexplained grease that had got onto both my front brakes and then burnt onto the pads.
I had them de-glazed and the fluid changed which has put them back to normal.
Stef, I have found that they require a bit of heating up to get maximum feel from them although they are more than adequate when cold.
I had them de-glazed and the fluid changed which has put them back to normal.
Stef, I have found that they require a bit of heating up to get maximum feel from them although they are more than adequate when cold.
19 May 2000, 08:27 AM
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Andrew
Didn't a guy on the iwoc say he could get mintex pads and 'Group N' grooved discs for about £160? I haven't got the email anymore, do you know who he is or where they are from?
Nick
[This message has been edited by Nick West (edited 19-05-2000).]
Didn't a guy on the iwoc say he could get mintex pads and 'Group N' grooved discs for about £160? I haven't got the email anymore, do you know who he is or where they are from?
Nick
[This message has been edited by Nick West (edited 19-05-2000).]
19 May 2000, 12:06 PM
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As Pete C explained on a recent post to IWOC, could it be that the pad backing plates have warped due to the excess heat? If the pads are now no longer totally flat, then you would only be pressing part of them against the disc?
If it is the fluid, then what would have happened to it? Could it have boiled?
I'm interested in trying the Mintex pads with a pair of grooved discs as an upgrade option (funds won't stretch to Brembos or APs ...
) Maybe the grooves would help remove the glaze from the pads? Hmm ...
A.
If it is the fluid, then what would have happened to it? Could it have boiled?
I'm interested in trying the Mintex pads with a pair of grooved discs as an upgrade option (funds won't stretch to Brembos or APs ...
) Maybe the grooves would help remove the glaze from the pads? Hmm ...A.
20 May 2000, 09:12 AM
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Nick
The discs in question are Bremsport Grooved. They are £106/pair including next day delivery - TAS 01772 454647 ask for Steve, mention my name. The best £100 you'll spend on your brakes - you won't be disappointed
Pads were from Falkland - £70 inc P&P.
Mail me if you want more info!
Gary
[This message has been edited by GaryC (edited 20-05-2000).]
The discs in question are Bremsport Grooved. They are £106/pair including next day delivery - TAS 01772 454647 ask for Steve, mention my name. The best £100 you'll spend on your brakes - you won't be disappointed
Pads were from Falkland - £70 inc P&P.
Mail me if you want more info!
Gary
[This message has been edited by GaryC (edited 20-05-2000).]
20 May 2000, 11:34 AM
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i have dot 5 fluid, braided hoses and mintex 1155 pads ( arghh - the dust!!!! ). i find i can still fade the brakes quite easily when playing round the derbyshire hills. will uprated discs help?? i've got two pot callipers at the moment but was thinking of uprating to four pots. funds definately won't stretch to ap's etc. cheers pumpers.
20 May 2000, 07:13 PM
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Pumpers, I ran 1155s with Standard discs - improved braking power, bit still faded badly. Have now fitted Bremsport discs and not only is stopping power awesome, haven't yet experienced any fade (first track excusion July 22nd!) All for just £106!! 
23 May 2000, 06:50 PM
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Stu
The grease may have been hub grease which is a common occurance on track days. You can see it smeared across peoples wheels, with brake dust stuck to it. It is caused by excess heat from the brakes heating the hubs and boiling the grease out.
The standard brakes normally fade before things get this hot.
The grease may have been hub grease which is a common occurance on track days. You can see it smeared across peoples wheels, with brake dust stuck to it. It is caused by excess heat from the brakes heating the hubs and boiling the grease out.
The standard brakes normally fade before things get this hot.
24 May 2000, 09:48 AM
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Pete,
That may just explain it - thanks! It was a very hot day and I'm sure my brakes would have been hotter than normal. Does this mean though, that my hubs are running without all of the lubricant that they require?
Cheers
Stu
That may just explain it - thanks! It was a very hot day and I'm sure my brakes would have been hotter than normal. Does this mean though, that my hubs are running without all of the lubricant that they require?
Cheers
Stu
24 May 2000, 11:46 PM
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Pete,
Is there a way to help cool the brakes to avoid the hubs getting hot enough to boil the grease? And before you say it, yes I know, don't use the brakes
I can get this problem with the standard brakes, I presume that it is only going to get worse if I fit harder pads which will get hotter before they fade.
Do you get this problem with Brembo/AP brakes?
DaveW
Is there a way to help cool the brakes to avoid the hubs getting hot enough to boil the grease? And before you say it, yes I know, don't use the brakes
I can get this problem with the standard brakes, I presume that it is only going to get worse if I fit harder pads which will get hotter before they fade.
Do you get this problem with Brembo/AP brakes?
DaveW
25 May 2000, 11:01 PM
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Was wondering what the benefits of removing the disc backing plates would be?
Heard of a guy who routed big duct pipes from under the bumper pointing into the centre of the disc. This air then got sucked into the vents at the centre of the disc, and chucked out around the edges through the vents.
Would maybe help the brakes run a little cooler? Although you wouldn't want to duct water onto them when it was raining!
Andrew
Heard of a guy who routed big duct pipes from under the bumper pointing into the centre of the disc. This air then got sucked into the vents at the centre of the disc, and chucked out around the edges through the vents.
Would maybe help the brakes run a little cooler? Although you wouldn't want to duct water onto them when it was raining!
Andrew
27 May 2000, 09:34 AM
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You don't get this problem with Brembo and AP for two reasons...
First the discs lose heat more quickly as they are wider,
Second these kits use an alloy bell that dissipates heat more much more quickly and the heat doesn't get as far as the hub.
A floating kit has negligable contact area between the disc and bell, so the heat transfer into the bell is even lower.
If the hubs stay cooler, the handling remains crisper too. When hub grease boils, it isn't taking up tolerances in the bearings and you get undesriable play in the wheel.
First the discs lose heat more quickly as they are wider,
Second these kits use an alloy bell that dissipates heat more much more quickly and the heat doesn't get as far as the hub.
A floating kit has negligable contact area between the disc and bell, so the heat transfer into the bell is even lower.
If the hubs stay cooler, the handling remains crisper too. When hub grease boils, it isn't taking up tolerances in the bearings and you get undesriable play in the wheel.
15 November 2012, 09:01 AM
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I got braided lines fitted and AP600 Dot 6 racing fluid to my 06 WRX and it has made a difference as under heavy braking the Dot 5 was heating up to much and affecting the braking by giving me that spongy feeling.
The company who do the work on my car have suggested Ferodo DS2500 or Performance Frictions pads, the latter giving off more brake dust tho depending on the compound you get.
The company who do the work on my car have suggested Ferodo DS2500 or Performance Frictions pads, the latter giving off more brake dust tho depending on the compound you get.
16 November 2012, 04:51 PM
#30
If you are running stock calipers like the 2 pots or wrx 4 pots then you will get fade on a hard drive no matter what, as the caliper meterial is diffrent to say Brembo calipers and ap and k sport. The wrx calipers cannot take too much into them and once they are hot they take ages to cool down thus brake fade, Brembo calipers are far better for keeping the fluid at workable temps.
You can minimise brake fade by fitting certain disc and pads to wrx calipers but you will still get brake fade when pushed hard, even with the 335 kit, it makes no diffrence to huge discs IMO, it's the calipers that need upgrading.
You can minimise brake fade by fitting certain disc and pads to wrx calipers but you will still get brake fade when pushed hard, even with the 335 kit, it makes no diffrence to huge discs IMO, it's the calipers that need upgrading.