Doc

Has anyone tried EBC Kevlar brake pads on a scooby?
There are three types.
According to manufacturer:-

Green Stuff. No warm up req'd.

Red Stuff. Needs some warm up, but adequate? response from cold.

Yellow Stuff. Race spec. Needs warming up.

Apparently they have won an award from M*X P***R Magazine but I can't bring myself to type it let alone read a back issue

They are available to fit the Impreza.

2 pot front calipers. RRP £54.50+VAT
4 pot front calipers. "Still tooling up but available soon at not much more than the 2 pots"

If you ring the manufacturer (01604 583344) they can give you the number of the nearest stockist to you. Mine was Autosave in Bridgwater 01278 426468.

I have never heard of these companies and only briefly about these pads in a previous thread. However they were not fitted to a scooby.

Are they worth a try or should I be a sheep and stick to Mintex

robski

Had Kevlar on my Celica as they were supposed to be the best. Were pants in my opinion (must point out, not this make tho).
This was running with grooved discs, but they still constantly suffered with really bad glazing.

not worth it in my opinion
robski

TonyFlow

I fitted the EBC greens to my Impreza (albeit only because I got them for Free), and they just blew me away, the response is superb, they do in fact, work better when they are warmed up, and do not fade at all after a few "emergency" stops from speed. When you first fit them though, they create a lot of dust. When they have ran out, I will definitely fit these beasts again

ColinU

See my next posting... I'm no longer an EBC fan!

> Original posting:
> I fitted EBC Greenstuff pads to the front of my MY98 a month ago.
> So far so good. Certainly better than normal stopping power
> (not earth shattering, but very good). They've also suffered the abuse
> of a 4 hour track session and stood up to the test admirably -- better bite,
> and far reduced fade. The only niggle I have is a squweel/grating
> sound on the front offside which started the other day. Hopefully it's
> not due to a pad fault... time to jack up
> the car and check it out.

[This message has been edited by ColinU (edited 08-11-1999).]

Stef

I intend to give them another chance (my last set were destroyed by pad knock-off at Cadwell).
I'll be using Red Stuff (needs very little bedding in!) at Donington, and then replace them with Green afterwards.
Never seen yellow!

Stef.

[This message has been edited by Stephan (edited 03-11-1999).]

DavieR

EBC pads! I wouldn't waste my money on them again. On the road there was no improvement over the standard pads, and for the one track day I used them for, they were definately worse, and faded a lot earlier.

They lasted a total of 3000 miles. Never again.

johnfelstead

i found EBC greens totally crap. I could fade then in a 2 mile run on country lanes.
give loads of dust as well. Use ferodo DS2000 if you want to live!

Stef

DavieR.

Are you referring to normal kevlar pads, or Green Stuff?

Stef.

DavieR

Hi Stef,
The EBC pads were the Green Stuff. For the track maybe the Red ones would be better. But as for the Green ones, the standard Subaru pads performed better - that's how bad they were.

Davie

Andrew Timmins

I've got EBC Greenstuff disks and pads on a MY95 and find them to be better than the standard ones which were fited before.

I understand that EBC Greenstuff pads are now on their third generation. Those of you who had problems may have had first or second generation pads.

A set of front pads cost me about £45 which is much cheaper than many other brands.

ColinU

EBC Greenstuff#2...

In my last posting (above) I rated the EBC Greenstuff pads as better than the standard scooby ones (+ I had good experiences with them on other cars).

I can now hold my hand up and say I've altered that opinion - at least as far as scoobies go.

I checked out the squeeking/grating noise from the offside front caliper, and found out that the EBC pads were totally knackered. They had worn obliquely -- about 8mm of friction material at one end of the pads, 0mm (i.e. metal) at the other! Identical problem on the nearside front, but not quite down to the metal (1mm to go).

For a set of pads that's seen less than 1500 miles that's pretty poor -- even though part of that was 50-ish laps at Knockhill over a four hour period.

Mintex 1155 are now the order of the day.

- Colin.

johnfelstead

collin, if you are going to go on track, for gods sake check your brakes regularily during the day. I go through a brand new set of pads every 80 miles when on the track at donnington, both front and rear. once you hit a certain temp, they just disapear.

Stef

Colin.

It sounds as though you've suffered from pad knock-on like I did earlier this year, which also destroyed my pads (like wedges of cheese!).
I don't think this is down to the pads, but more to the fluid. Green Stuff pads, whilst OK for road use, should never be used on track, which is why EBC have Redstuff pads.
I may be wrong, but it sounds very similar to my situation.

Stef.

johnfelstead

sorry to be pedantic but here goes.
what you are trying to explain is not "pad knock-off" but is as a result of the pad getting hotter at its leading edge, compaired to its trailing edge. it has nothing to do with fluid temp. The above is a normal charicteristic of overheated pads.
Pad knock-off is caused by flex in the disk rotor in relation to the brake caliper. It is usually caused by hub flex on standard cars under extreme cornering loads.

Stef

John.

Thanks for the correction, but I was only giving the explanation that Pete at Scoobysport gave me.
If that is the case, then it's clearly due to the quality of the pad (or lack of!).
Perhaps two identical cases is too much of a coincedence.
As I've said before though, Green Stuff isn't good enough for track days, that much is for sure (unless you brake like a fairy! .

Stef.

Mike Tuckwood

EBC do not currently do a 'yellow' pad for the Imprezza. <I>(They may if there is enough demand)</I>.

The Green pads as Stef says are definitely the wrong pad to use for a track day.

You have to be realistic about the amount of abuse these pads suffer on a track.

<B>50 laps of Knockhill on Greens!</B> You are lucky you didn't have an 'incident'.

John Felsteads observations are spot on, you should be checking pads Etc, every time you come off after a stint on the track.

EBC Green pads are good from cold up to approx. 550 degrees C, at which point they will be wearing at a hugely accelerated rate in the manner described by ColinU for the reasons described by John F.

EBC Red stuff need warming to abot 100 degrees C before they start to work effectively but run up to approx. 750 degrees C. (Huge difference on the track).

If you drive quick and are hard on the brakes normally anyway, (John F) Red stuff are the only ones to consider.


The Max Power awards conducted last year were very carefully carried out and the EBC pads didn't win for nothing.

Mike.

Stef

Mike.
I live near EBC HQ, and they have said they will machine any of their pads to order with the correct part number.
Are you saying that if Yellow Stuff was available, it would be the best for track use?

Stef.

Mike Tuckwood

Stef.

Sort of but not exactly. It is partially dependant on a mix of driving style, particular track, weather & type (weight primarily) of car they are being used on.

The Yellow pad has a working temp range which starts at approx. 150 degrees C and runs all the way up to 950 degrees C.

It is for 'Heavier Race & Rally, BTCC & endurance racing' and is a pure race compound.

If you are going to nail your car and be hard on the brakes at every opportunity, Yellow is the one to go for.

The tech. bod at EBC is away until Friday, I will (was going to anyway) speak to him about Yellow pad availability.


<I>Brakes don't work if you are going sideways.</I>

Mike.

ColinU

Hi folks,

Thanks for the comments re my EBC "wedges".

To clarify -- I did check the pads (i.e. removed and inspected them) after the track day. They were OK. No significant wedging, and no more wear that I would expect from such "abuse".

Since the track day the car has only been driven "sedately" by me or my wife with baby Holly on board. My guess is that although the pads seemed OK after the track usage they must have been at the point of no return (i.e. weakened leading/training edge combination).

Odd, but that's the only conclusion I can come to.

- Colin.

johnfelstead

i think i need to expand a little on the pad taper wear problem you are seeing (cheese shape).
There is very little you can do to stop this on a road car braking system.
It is a natural phenominan that the leading edge of the pad gets hotter than the trailing edge.
On competition calipers such as AP Racing 4 Pot calipers, the pistons used have different sizes for the trailing and leading edges of the caliper, this is to apply more pressure on the trailing edge to minimise the temp difference accross the pad.
What you may also be seeing is that as the pad gets thinner the thermal chariteristics get worse as there is less material to act as a heat soak, thus increasing the temperature exponentially.
I have tried Pagid, mintex, EBC and ferrodo on my road cars and have found ferrodo DS2000 the best pad for disk wear/consitency and lack of fade/low temp charicteristics.
On my race and rally cars i have found performance friction 93 compond(race) 83 compound(rally) the best but are far too harsh for road use.

Pete Croney

Guys

I think the heat that gets into the rear hubs is as much too blame and this is what I was trying to explain to Stef.

When we have done brake testing, the rears are often running hotter than the fronts... sometimes 25% hotter. If the heat gets into the hubs, the disc will move and will press against the pad, accelerating wear.

A symptom of this is pad knock off, which Stef was getting huge amounts of.

If this was a problem with temperature along the pad, it would happen to both pads. It normally only happens to one pad per caliper. If both are affected, the other pad is the opposite profile, ie leading edge is wearing more than the trailing edge.

Stef

Pete.

Couldn't put it better myself. (Which is probably why I didn't! )

Stef.

johnfelstead

if the calipers you are talking about are sliding calipers, (only one side has a piston) then they are very prone to wearing one side more than the other.
Pad knock-off is caused by flex in the hub/disk in relation to the caliper.

Mike Tuckwood

Pad knock off can also be caused by the disc moving about in the caliper and pushing the pads back.

The wedge shaped pads if caused at or after a track day or constant hard use with the wrong grade of pad fitted, is not normally heat related directly, (although the heat does make the problem worse).

It is caused due to the fact that the edge of the pad which is carrying the directional load of the disc passing through it, loads up so much that it cannot exert anywhere near as much pressure onto the discs as the leading edge (which is carrying no load at all).

This is why multi-pot calipers (4 or 6) use different sized pistons so that more pressure is applied at the trailing edge to overcome the fact that the pads are carrying huge loads against the internal caliper aperture.

I spent over three hours yesterday with the technical 'Guru' at AP Racing and this was one of the topics discussed.

He also went into detail as to why in heavy use applications, 6 pot calipers will out perform 4 pots. From the horses mouth as they say. (he doesn't look like a horse).

Also saw Mika Hakkinens damaged F1 caliper from whatever race it was he crashed in and calipers & clutches for McClaren F1's Lotus' All the F1 manufacturers bar 2 use AP Calipers.

Mike.

[This message has been edited by Mike Tuckwood (edited 11-11-1999).]

johnfelstead

mike, you have just repeated every thing i have said in this thread allready.

I use AP racing calipers on my race and rally cars and have spent 5 years sorting various brake issues in GT racing and Group A rallying with the assistance of AP plus LeMans winning race engineers.

i have played with internal and external water cooling, ceramic inserts, Titanium, alluminium and stainless steel pistons, radial and lug mount calipers, floating and solid mounted disks. Different wheel bearing configurations for pad knock off reduction, different poundage of anti knock-off piston springs. etc. etc.

Stef

I've played with all the settings on 'Colin McRae Rally' on the Playstation!

Stef.

Mike Tuckwood

If you look carefully John, I agreed with you and threw a few other factors in as well <I>(otherwise it wouldn't have been worth replying would it)</I>

I was trying to explain that it was not purely heat that caused it and give a description of why the pad needed more pressure at the trailing edge (which is not solely because of heat).

Some people do not have or run race and rally cars and I thought it may be helpful?

Differnt sizes pistons are used because of the (friction impeded) energy differential required to exert the same pressure (under heavy load) as the leading edge?

Under load the pad back plate is carrying the huge rotatonal forces from gripping the disc against the caliper.

The difference being likened to say the amount of pressure (or how much pressure is exerted at which point) if you were trying to push a wardrobe across a floor?


I think that is slightly different to what you covered. Or I don't listen carefully enough, (Not impossible).

Mike.

firefox

StePHy...

I thought you only played with yourself... lol

Jane.

Stef

Hmmmmmm....

I can see a BBS user ban coming on for someone!

SteF.