God-awful noise under heavy braking.
23 February 2004, 02:37 AM
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God-awful noise under heavy braking.
Some advice or hints would be gratefully received guys - with SNet being down for ages I have searched the internet and I dont know if I am more enlightened or not! 
Sorry if it goes on a bit but I want to try and include as much info as possible.
Driving today on an empty dual carriage way I had some fun and ended up building up quite a 'head of steam'
Came to a roundabout and braked in plenty of time, although due the speed I was travelling it was obviously fairly hard braking.
An absolutely obscene noise appeared under braking, which seems have been coming from the front and presumably the wheels/brakes. It appeared to be a rotational noise too, if that makes sense.
It is hard to describe exactly - it wasnt grinding or scraping but more a sort of a groaning, humming, wailing or perhaps droning sort of noise.
I absolutely shat my pants and thought something was going to break but it didnt and hauled me to a stop - it's hard to comment on the feel of the brake pedal - the brakes were effective but perhaps not quite as much so as normal - the pedal certainly wasnt soft or anything - maybe even a touch of the opposite but I cannot say for certain.
With another stretch of roundabout I built up speed again (but not so much this time - just in case) to try and brake hard again and the same thing happened - the noise seemd to remain for a very short period after I had released the pedal too. Would this suggest that maybe there was too much heat in the brakes and they stuck momentarily or something?
The pads are worn but I dropped the car in to the dealer a week or two ago to look at a very, very slight grinding noise under braking - nothing major was their opinion, merely normal brake noise exacerbated a little by worn pads and discs perhaps. They said I had around 1/3 of the pads left, and should get another few thousand miles out of them.
Would they have really got that hot under one hard application, even if the pads are worn? And even if they did, would that have caused the droning noise?
Could it be something with the discs - warping, glazing or hot spots or anything? Here are a couple of pictures of the discs taken shortly after I had got back. I presume those black marks are heat spots? Can anyone make an informed suggestion as to any problems with those discs?
Another thought I had was that maybe it was tyre noise - but it seems very loud if it is. The tyre pressures are and were fine. As of a week or so ago, I had around 5mm of tread all round - so worn but not dead at all yet. From what I can see, bar the wear, the tyres are not damaged at all.
the car is a MY03 WRX with standard brakes, and 18" P1 wheels with 225/40/18 P Zero Rosso tyres.
I was planning on getting new pads and discs in the next week or so anyway (a little bit earlier than needed according to the dealer) and was thinking about upgrading the setup anyway - to what I'm not sure though (on a budget) - so if there is indeed a problem it is not that big a deal - gives me an excuse to do it asap actually!
Any help would be great guys - and once again, many, many apologies for a very long post - as I said, I just wanted to get as much info down at once as I could.
Cheers
John
Sorry if it goes on a bit but I want to try and include as much info as possible.Driving today on an empty dual carriage way I had some fun and ended up building up quite a 'head of steam'
Came to a roundabout and braked in plenty of time, although due the speed I was travelling it was obviously fairly hard braking.An absolutely obscene noise appeared under braking, which seems have been coming from the front and presumably the wheels/brakes. It appeared to be a rotational noise too, if that makes sense.
It is hard to describe exactly - it wasnt grinding or scraping but more a sort of a groaning, humming, wailing or perhaps droning sort of noise.
I absolutely shat my pants and thought something was going to break but it didnt and hauled me to a stop - it's hard to comment on the feel of the brake pedal - the brakes were effective but perhaps not quite as much so as normal - the pedal certainly wasnt soft or anything - maybe even a touch of the opposite but I cannot say for certain.
With another stretch of roundabout I built up speed again (but not so much this time - just in case) to try and brake hard again and the same thing happened - the noise seemd to remain for a very short period after I had released the pedal too. Would this suggest that maybe there was too much heat in the brakes and they stuck momentarily or something?
The pads are worn but I dropped the car in to the dealer a week or two ago to look at a very, very slight grinding noise under braking - nothing major was their opinion, merely normal brake noise exacerbated a little by worn pads and discs perhaps. They said I had around 1/3 of the pads left, and should get another few thousand miles out of them.
Would they have really got that hot under one hard application, even if the pads are worn? And even if they did, would that have caused the droning noise?
Could it be something with the discs - warping, glazing or hot spots or anything? Here are a couple of pictures of the discs taken shortly after I had got back. I presume those black marks are heat spots? Can anyone make an informed suggestion as to any problems with those discs?
Another thought I had was that maybe it was tyre noise - but it seems very loud if it is. The tyre pressures are and were fine. As of a week or so ago, I had around 5mm of tread all round - so worn but not dead at all yet. From what I can see, bar the wear, the tyres are not damaged at all.
the car is a MY03 WRX with standard brakes, and 18" P1 wheels with 225/40/18 P Zero Rosso tyres.
I was planning on getting new pads and discs in the next week or so anyway (a little bit earlier than needed according to the dealer) and was thinking about upgrading the setup anyway - to what I'm not sure though (on a budget) - so if there is indeed a problem it is not that big a deal - gives me an excuse to do it asap actually!
Any help would be great guys - and once again, many, many apologies for a very long post - as I said, I just wanted to get as much info down at once as I could.
Cheers
John
23 February 2004, 11:11 AM
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John,
What you've explained is sadly quite normal on standard brakes, it's all about heat!! The discs and pads get very hot very quickly, and then the 'droning' starts, from my experience the fact that the original discs aren't grooved is part of the problem, the pads glaze slightly, and give off some sort of gas, which gets trapped between the disc and pad forming a cushion of gas that you're trying to push the pad through, not good!!
However, ifthe discs were grooved, not only would that gas be able to escape through the grooves, but the grovves also stop the pads glazing, basically the groove scrapes a VERY thin layer of pad off when you brake! But don't panic, they can still last reasonably well!!
My first move would be to forget dealer fit discs and apds, and get different discs and upgraded pads, Ian at Godspeed does grooved standard size discs, and different pads for a reasonable price, and he gaurentees them against cracking and warping for a year I think.
http://www.godspeedbrakes.co.uk
Ron.
What you've explained is sadly quite normal on standard brakes, it's all about heat!! The discs and pads get very hot very quickly, and then the 'droning' starts, from my experience the fact that the original discs aren't grooved is part of the problem, the pads glaze slightly, and give off some sort of gas, which gets trapped between the disc and pad forming a cushion of gas that you're trying to push the pad through, not good!!
However, ifthe discs were grooved, not only would that gas be able to escape through the grooves, but the grovves also stop the pads glazing, basically the groove scrapes a VERY thin layer of pad off when you brake! But don't panic, they can still last reasonably well!!
My first move would be to forget dealer fit discs and apds, and get different discs and upgraded pads, Ian at Godspeed does grooved standard size discs, and different pads for a reasonable price, and he gaurentees them against cracking and warping for a year I think.
http://www.godspeedbrakes.co.uk
Ron.
23 February 2004, 11:53 AM
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John,
I have a very similar thing happens on my MY00 UK Turbo. Very worryingly loud droning/humming sound when braking hard from high speed (>100mph) but absolutely fine at lower speeds. I knew my front discs and pads were worn and thought the problem would go away when I replaced them, so I ordered Godspeed drilled and grooved discs with Mintex pads. However, the problem didn't go away.
Next thought was tyres so I swapped wheels with different tyres on - no change. Next I thought perhaps the problem wasn't related to the brakes at all but was maybe to do with the drivetrain, so I have had the bearings, diffs and driveshafts checked but all seems to be fine!!
So I am still at a loss as to the cause and have kinda learned to live with it (I don't drive at high speeds very often!) but I would love to know what it is and put it right!!
Steve
I have a very similar thing happens on my MY00 UK Turbo. Very worryingly loud droning/humming sound when braking hard from high speed (>100mph) but absolutely fine at lower speeds. I knew my front discs and pads were worn and thought the problem would go away when I replaced them, so I ordered Godspeed drilled and grooved discs with Mintex pads. However, the problem didn't go away.
Next thought was tyres so I swapped wheels with different tyres on - no change. Next I thought perhaps the problem wasn't related to the brakes at all but was maybe to do with the drivetrain, so I have had the bearings, diffs and driveshafts checked but all seems to be fine!!
So I am still at a loss as to the cause and have kinda learned to live with it (I don't drive at high speeds very often!) but I would love to know what it is and put it right!!
Steve
23 February 2004, 11:53 AM
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Ron,
Many thanks for your reply.
Having slept on it, this was the kind of conclusion that I was coming to - ie the brakes had reached their limits ( I guess not their absolute limit as they still did their job - but they were beginning to struggle). This was partly because I have noe other real problems with them.
I now know why enthusiatic drivers say that the standard set up is poor I had found the brakes fine under normal and (what better drivers on here would call) sort of 'light' spirited driving But having had the car for approaching a year now I am growing in confidence and understanding, and as such am beginning to explore the cars performance more. And it seems I have found the brakes wanting!!
My dilemma is that I have my first track day in just under a couple of weeks. I was going to use the dealer upgraded option (not the full Prodrive brake kit, but just uprated discs and pads) as I would be able to get them ordered and fitted, and bedded in, in time.
I know they are not the best option, or the most VFM, and that even the pads (I think) are re-branded items available elsewhere for less money (so I may even go, or would have gone, elsewhere for those). My thinking was a) that they would have to be an improvement over standard (wouldnt they?!?) and b) that, as above, I could get the job done in my time constraints.
Not being able to afford something like a full AP big brake kit (which is something I would love) I have actually looked at some of Ian's stuff and it is something I definitely would consider. But I know that due to demand Ian may not be able to help me in time and if anything happened and I didnt get the brakes in time I would be in trouble re the track day. I think I have also missed out on a group buy of some sorts (though not exactly sure what for ) but I would imagine that that may make it extremely difficult for Ian to help me in time. Only way to find out, I guess, is to ask him or hope he pops his head in here.
Godspeed stuff aside, another reason for going the dealer route was that (for the uninitiated like me) this is something of a minefield, and even though I may end up paying over the odds at the moment the sense of security that using dealer supplied stuff would hopefully bring, and the fact that they are 5 minutes away, would be great until I had got my head round everything and knew how to do the job properly (and had the budget!).
Does that make sense at all, or do I sound like a dribbling moron?
Thanks again for your help Ron - much appreciated.
John
Many thanks for your reply.
Having slept on it, this was the kind of conclusion that I was coming to - ie the brakes had reached their limits ( I guess not their absolute limit as they still did their job - but they were beginning to struggle). This was partly because I have noe other real problems with them.
I now know why enthusiatic drivers say that the standard set up is poor
I had found the brakes fine under normal and (what better drivers on here would call) sort of 'light' spirited driving But having had the car for approaching a year now I am growing in confidence and understanding, and as such am beginning to explore the cars performance more. And it seems I have found the brakes wanting!!My dilemma is that I have my first track day in just under a couple of weeks. I was going to use the dealer upgraded option (not the full Prodrive brake kit, but just uprated discs and pads) as I would be able to get them ordered and fitted, and bedded in, in time.
I know they are not the best option, or the most VFM, and that even the pads (I think) are re-branded items available elsewhere for less money (so I may even go, or would have gone, elsewhere for those). My thinking was a) that they would have to be an improvement over standard (wouldnt they?!?) and b) that, as above, I could get the job done in my time constraints.
Not being able to afford something like a full AP big brake kit (which is something I would love) I have actually looked at some of Ian's stuff and it is something I definitely would consider. But I know that due to demand Ian may not be able to help me in time and if anything happened and I didnt get the brakes in time I would be in trouble re the track day. I think I have also missed out on a group buy of some sorts (though not exactly sure what for
) but I would imagine that that may make it extremely difficult for Ian to help me in time. Only way to find out, I guess, is to ask him or hope he pops his head in here. Godspeed stuff aside, another reason for going the dealer route was that (for the uninitiated like me) this is something of a minefield, and even though I may end up paying over the odds at the moment the sense of security that using dealer supplied stuff would hopefully bring, and the fact that they are 5 minutes away, would be great until I had got my head round everything and knew how to do the job properly (and had the budget!).
Does that make sense at all, or do I sound like a dribbling moron?
Thanks again for your help Ron - much appreciated.
John
23 February 2004, 12:01 PM
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Brake upgrade possible solution?
John,
Have a look here (but be quick as the group buy is closing soon!) as this seems to offer the best compaamise between a £1K+ set of AP`s or brembo`s and merely uprating the disks and pads. All in all it should cost about £600 for the brake upgrade, braided hoses and brake fluid, a great deal.
I`d give this some serious consideration and be a bit wary of merely uprating your disks and pads if your planning a track day.
Drop me an e-mail if your up for it.
Cheers,
Chris
Have a look here (but be quick as the group buy is closing soon!) as this seems to offer the best compaamise between a £1K+ set of AP`s or brembo`s and merely uprating the disks and pads. All in all it should cost about £600 for the brake upgrade, braided hoses and brake fluid, a great deal.
I`d give this some serious consideration and be a bit wary of merely uprating your disks and pads if your planning a track day.
Drop me an e-mail if your up for it.
Cheers,
Chris
23 February 2004, 12:04 PM
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lol, sorry for another mammoth post guys
Steve, thats interesting. Hmmmmm. maybe it isnt the brakes as such then.....
My problem was from similar speeds to you too....it is very worrying isnt it!!
There has to be something amiss here - I can't see that its a 'feature' that you have to live with, surely....? I mean, on track this would surely happen a lot and this would send you mad - Ive never heard journos mention it or anything......
Well, unless anyone can suggest anything, I need to go ahead and get my brakes done anyway so I guess we will see if that eradicates my problem. If it does then maybe our problems are not exactly the same.....Or maybe it wont make a difference. Will have to see I guess!
John
Steve, thats interesting. Hmmmmm. maybe it isnt the brakes as such then.....
My problem was from similar speeds to you too....it is very worrying isnt it!!
There has to be something amiss here - I can't see that its a 'feature' that you have to live with, surely....? I mean, on track this would surely happen a lot and this would send you mad - Ive never heard journos mention it or anything......
Well, unless anyone can suggest anything, I need to go ahead and get my brakes done anyway so I guess we will see if that eradicates my problem. If it does then maybe our problems are not exactly the same.....Or maybe it wont make a difference. Will have to see I guess!
John
23 February 2004, 12:05 PM
#7
Oi ya dribbling moron I have standard sized grooved discs on the shelf , and have 6 sets of the 335mm kit on the shelf , so if you want to take part in the current group buy they are available now
What size wheels do you have , you will need 17's for the bigger kit.
Cheers Ian
I have standard sized grooved discs on the shelf , and have 6 sets of the 335mm kit on the shelf , so if you want to take part in the current group buy they are available nowWhat size wheels do you have , you will need 17's for the bigger kit.
Cheers Ian
Last edited by Godspeed Brakes; 23 February 2004 at 12:06 PM.
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23 February 2004, 12:12 PM
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This thread seems to have lurched forward somewhat in the last few minutes!!
Chris and Ian lol, cheers guys.
Give me a little while to think this through! (how long have I got???)
I take it price and other info etc is on the other thread.....
Ian, I have 18" wheels so the bigger kit would fit I imagine.
If I were to order first thing in the morning when could I reasonably expect them?
Cheers guys - gonna go off and have a think and work stuff out (or try too
Chris and Ian
lol, cheers guys. Give me a little while to think this through! (how long have I got???)
I take it price and other info etc is on the other thread.....
Ian, I have 18" wheels so the bigger kit would fit I imagine.
If I were to order first thing in the morning when could I reasonably expect them?
Cheers guys - gonna go off and have a think and work stuff out (or try too
23 February 2004, 12:24 PM
#9
As soon as I get at least 5 orders in (I've had one in this morning) then I will be sending them out next day delivery , otherwise you can have one now if you cant wait for the group buy but then there's no discount sorry
I imagine that the other group buy orders should be in within the next couple of days though.
Cheers Ian
I imagine that the other group buy orders should be in within the next couple of days though.
Cheers Ian
23 February 2004, 12:39 PM
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John,
I'm sure it's not a "feature" as mine is the only car I know of that it happens on (and yours now!). There are about a dozen or so owners/enthusiasts local to me and none of them have encountered it
I'd be interested to know if your problem goes away when you replace your brakes.
By the way, 18" P1 wheels on an MY03??? That'll be the problem then! You should replace the wheels immediately and sell the P1 wheels to me
Steve
I'm sure it's not a "feature" as mine is the only car I know of that it happens on (and yours now!). There are about a dozen or so owners/enthusiasts local to me and none of them have encountered it
I'd be interested to know if your problem goes away when you replace your brakes.By the way, 18" P1 wheels on an MY03??? That'll be the problem then! You should replace the wheels immediately and sell the P1 wheels to me
Steve
23 February 2004, 01:03 PM
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Steve -
Will let you know whether I still experience the noise when I get something else on.
Chris in a minute, YHM.
edit: Ian YHM (in a minute) too now as I have found your email addy.
John
Will let you know whether I still experience the noise when I get something else on.
Chris in a minute, YHM.
edit: Ian YHM (in a minute) too now as I have found your email addy.
John
Last edited by JohnMcC; 23 February 2004 at 01:04 PM.
23 February 2004, 04:08 PM
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Ian
Sorry about that
Thanks for your reply though (luckily I do have broadband ), and YHM back again (not quite as big this time )
The gist of it is that I am 99.9% up for this and just want to clarify mainly where to get the kit fitted.
John
Edit: actually, here is as god a place as any to start - anyone here in the South (east) London/Kent area who can recommend a place that will fit the kit?
Cheers.
Sorry about that Thanks for your reply though (luckily I do have broadband
), and YHM back again (not quite as big this time )The gist of it is that I am 99.9% up for this and just want to clarify mainly where to get the kit fitted.
John
Edit: actually, here is as god a place as any to start - anyone here in the South (east) London/Kent area who can recommend a place that will fit the kit?
Cheers.
Last edited by JohnMcC; 23 February 2004 at 04:09 PM.
23 February 2004, 04:09 PM
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John welcome to the club WRX03 standard ****e brakes!! I am surprised it has taken you nearly a year to find this out LOL. I have the same car as you and have fitted the 335 godspeed brake kit you will not look back they are fantastic and you will banish the problems that you have previously mentioned. The only problem that you will now have is that the rear brakes will look very spangley under those 18's, still thats next months salary taken care of .
Regards
John
Regards
John
23 February 2004, 04:20 PM
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I guess I've been driving in a rather girly fashion then Cheers for the recommendation - think I'm almost certainly going to get the kit, I have certainly heard lots of great things about Ian's brakes since I have been on Scoobynet - time to see for myself
I'll forget you said that about the rear brakes
Ive got tyres to get too at the moment!! John
23 February 2004, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by DBY
John thats what you get for driving a Beetle for too long!!
Tyres have done between 14k and 15k - forget off the top of my head.
2-3 millimetres until they are illegal but have a track day soon so will kill them then - but would probably be looking to change well before they became illegal anyway.
Is that proof that I drive like a big girl
or is that reasonable?
Last edited by JohnMcC; 23 February 2004 at 04:59 PM.
23 February 2004, 06:52 PM
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It is hard to describe exactly - it wasnt grinding or scraping but more a sort of a groaning, humming, wailing or perhaps droning sort of noise.
You don't have to make wholesale changes to your braking system to combat it, simply changing the pads to a recognised good compound will make a world of difference to initial application, while changing the lines for braided ones will improve pedal feel no end, and using a high temperature fluid will maintain consistency through repeated hard applications.
The standard discs and calipers can be made extremely effective via this approach, although, if you have space under your wheels, fitting a big brake kit like the Godspeed one would be a worthwhile option.
23 February 2004, 08:40 PM
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John I have done about the same mileage 14.5k with 3mm left so you must have been trying!!
Ron and a very nice job you did too
GM Always bringing common sence to the proceedings
Regards
John
Ron and a very nice job you did too
GM Always bringing common sence to the proceedings
Regards
John
24 February 2004, 08:07 AM
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Ron - thankyou - another recommendation for Ian's brakes Looking likely that I will follow suit (just gonna make a few phone calls this morning Ian, if you see this).
gm - thanks for the info - this is what this kit should achieve really - the discs could do with changing anyway so I may as well get those at the same time. I am going to do at least one track day so I would like them uprated too ideally, thats why this kit looks like the answer.
John - I reality I do drive the car fairly hard. I dont profess to be an excellent driver but as the year has gone on I have realised more of the potential of the car.
What I dont do a lot is haul the car to a stop from silly speeds, which is when the noise happened the other day. Although, I'm sure I have done before, but it must be the standard brakes limits, plus the fact that they are worn and on their way out, that caused the noise.
Just need to locate someone who can fit some of Ian's brakes in the next fortnight and I will be all set hopefully.
John
Looking likely that I will follow suit (just gonna make a few phone calls this morning Ian, if you see this). gm - thanks for the info - this is what this kit should achieve really - the discs could do with changing anyway so I may as well get those at the same time. I am going to do at least one track day so I would like them uprated too ideally, thats why this kit looks like the answer.
John - I reality I do drive the car fairly hard. I dont profess to be an excellent driver but as the year has gone on I have realised more of the potential of the car.
What I dont do a lot is haul the car to a stop from silly speeds, which is when the noise happened the other day. Although, I'm sure I have done before, but it must be the standard brakes limits, plus the fact that they are worn and on their way out, that caused the noise.
Just need to locate someone who can fit some of Ian's brakes in the next fortnight and I will be all set hopefully.
John
Last edited by JohnMcC; 24 February 2004 at 08:08 AM.
24 February 2004, 10:19 AM
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John
There are not many people that write longer posts than I do, but yours is a splendid attempt, mate. A fine body of work for a dribbling moron
Just to endorse what everyone is saying here, really. I don't think there is anything much wrong with your standard brakes, as such. Except that a) they are not really up to the job, and b) they looked shagged to me!
Gentle braking from 50mph is one thing, but hitting them hard from 100-plus is a completely different world. The discs quickly saturate with heat, which then goes staight back to the pads and fluid, and the whole thing escalates rapidly towards a majorly scary moment
A mate did some sums for me a little while ago and the heat absorbed in a 100-0 stop would boil three full kettles of water in four seconds, which really brings it home.
The main problem is, in my view, the discs. They cannot absorb enough heat from a major application. This is seriously aggravated by the fact that you've lost a lot of metal through wear, and from the pads also, so you've lost a lot of heat-soak before you start. And on a track day, brakes get a horrible battering, depending on the circuit. Donington is worst and will kill any standard kit (including my mates 911, which cost him over a grand to get fixed LOL).
Ian's upgrade with big two-piece grooved discs and uprated pads has got a very good reputation and track-day guarantee. VFM is excellent. Prepare for plenty of
Richard.
PS Don't forget about the rears. They have virtually no cooling and, even though they don't do much, they can get extremely hot. Upgraded pads should fix them. Oh, and don't forget a suspension up-grade, too!
There are not many people that write longer posts than I do, but yours is a splendid attempt, mate. A fine body of work for a dribbling moron
Just to endorse what everyone is saying here, really. I don't think there is anything much wrong with your standard brakes, as such. Except that a) they are not really up to the job, and b) they looked shagged to me!
Gentle braking from 50mph is one thing, but hitting them hard from 100-plus is a completely different world. The discs quickly saturate with heat, which then goes staight back to the pads and fluid, and the whole thing escalates rapidly towards a majorly scary moment
A mate did some sums for me a little while ago and the heat absorbed in a 100-0 stop would boil three full kettles of water in four seconds, which really brings it home.The main problem is, in my view, the discs. They cannot absorb enough heat from a major application. This is seriously aggravated by the fact that you've lost a lot of metal through wear, and from the pads also, so you've lost a lot of heat-soak before you start. And on a track day, brakes get a horrible battering, depending on the circuit. Donington is worst and will kill any standard kit (including my mates 911, which cost him over a grand to get fixed LOL).
Ian's upgrade with big two-piece grooved discs and uprated pads has got a very good reputation and track-day guarantee. VFM is excellent. Prepare for plenty of
Richard.
PS Don't forget about the rears. They have virtually no cooling and, even though they don't do much, they can get extremely hot. Upgraded pads should fix them. Oh, and don't forget a suspension up-grade, too!
24 February 2004, 02:57 PM
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Ian - YHM - I have decided to go with them
Richard - That stuff about how much heat gets into them is scary! I think they are shagged lol - just got back and had similar noises, but from lower speeds now!
They are pretty much fine pootling around, but try and press on and they arent giving me any confidence.
lol - and dont make me spend more money that I dont really have!
Ron - thanks anyway think I have fitting sorted now.
John
Richard -
That stuff about how much heat gets into them is scary! I think they are shagged lol - just got back and had similar noises, but from lower speeds now! They are pretty much fine pootling around, but try and press on and they arent giving me any confidence.
lol - and dont make me spend more money that I dont really have!
Ron - thanks anyway
think I have fitting sorted now. John
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