Draft policy on copyright/replicas/... - I think you will like it!
14 November 2003, 09:20 PM
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Hi All,
The recent Report To Moderators that have come into us have highlighted the fact that Scoobynet and the whole replica issue needed looking at. This has caused no small amount of hassle for the scoobynet team both from the community and from the desire to do the right thing.
This isn't a definitive statement of policy yet, but here's what it's looking like... This isn't just this forum, it's global, but as there's been some "active discussion" here, I'd like to get some comments back as there's obviously some people who have good input to give on this.
- If a post discusses obvious exact copies of copyrighted work (eg DVDs, CDs, engine maps, logos, that sort of thing) or infringement of rights then Scoobynet may act to remove the offending posts.
- If a party feels that a post is discussing infringing their rights, it is up to the party to make a complaint using the report to moderator function. Each will be looked at on a case by case basis and handled to the best of our ability.
So, taking the recent threads that have had attention and please bear in mind this is my interpretation and may not represent scoobynet's full policy which will be coming soon.
- Sticker threads were locked following a complaint from Prodrive. In the future, we may lock these pro-actively or we may miss them in which case it is up to Prodrive to report to moderator. They are obviously infringing Prodrive's rights, of that there is no doubt. Let's not get into a debate about that one again, I'm still recovering from wading through trademarks
- P1 lip spoiler thread was locked following a complaint from Prodrive. This is less clear cut. A P1 lip spoiler is made only by Prodrive, however a replica that has been prototyped, designed and refined so is a separate work rather than a direct copy. How this stands legally is unknown to me. However, the thread was also an advert which is why it was locked.
- Replica spoiler thread was locked following a complaint of inconsistency. This was actually a good thing, as it has sparked a more complete debate and hopefully we've got something that now works. If it isn't already unlocked, I'll unlock it as we're a bit clearer on what policy is now!
I really would appreciate your thoughts and help with this. The mods hate being perceived as working against the community, or power mad, or hypocritical or inconsistent but we are human and do make mistakes. We are here for the good of the community, despite what you may think
.
You may be thinking that this is a storm about nothing: in a way it is, but in another way it isn't. Scoobynet is a publisher in the eyes of the law, and despite the disclaimers at the bottom of pages and post we could still be held responsible legally. I'm not a lawyer, and I don't want to be one, but Scoobynet doesn't have the funds to fight that sort of legal fight to prove it either way.
Any thoughts? Hopefully this is sensible, and a bit clearer on when we will act (i.e. when it's unequivocal ripping off) and when we won't (i.e. when we cannot be sure and it is up to the potentially agrieved party to complain and convince us that something is wrong)
Cheers,
Nick.
The recent Report To Moderators that have come into us have highlighted the fact that Scoobynet and the whole replica issue needed looking at. This has caused no small amount of hassle for the scoobynet team both from the community and from the desire to do the right thing.
This isn't a definitive statement of policy yet, but here's what it's looking like... This isn't just this forum, it's global, but as there's been some "active discussion" here, I'd like to get some comments back as there's obviously some people who have good input to give on this.
- If a post discusses obvious exact copies of copyrighted work (eg DVDs, CDs, engine maps, logos, that sort of thing) or infringement of rights then Scoobynet may act to remove the offending posts.
- If a party feels that a post is discussing infringing their rights, it is up to the party to make a complaint using the report to moderator function. Each will be looked at on a case by case basis and handled to the best of our ability.
So, taking the recent threads that have had attention and please bear in mind this is my interpretation and may not represent scoobynet's full policy which will be coming soon.
- Sticker threads were locked following a complaint from Prodrive. In the future, we may lock these pro-actively or we may miss them in which case it is up to Prodrive to report to moderator. They are obviously infringing Prodrive's rights, of that there is no doubt. Let's not get into a debate about that one again, I'm still recovering from wading through trademarks
- P1 lip spoiler thread was locked following a complaint from Prodrive. This is less clear cut. A P1 lip spoiler is made only by Prodrive, however a replica that has been prototyped, designed and refined so is a separate work rather than a direct copy. How this stands legally is unknown to me. However, the thread was also an advert which is why it was locked.
- Replica spoiler thread was locked following a complaint of inconsistency. This was actually a good thing, as it has sparked a more complete debate and hopefully we've got something that now works. If it isn't already unlocked, I'll unlock it as we're a bit clearer on what policy is now!
I really would appreciate your thoughts and help with this. The mods hate being perceived as working against the community, or power mad, or hypocritical or inconsistent but we are human and do make mistakes. We are here for the good of the community, despite what you may think
. You may be thinking that this is a storm about nothing: in a way it is, but in another way it isn't. Scoobynet is a publisher in the eyes of the law, and despite the disclaimers at the bottom of pages and post we could still be held responsible legally. I'm not a lawyer, and I don't want to be one, but Scoobynet doesn't have the funds to fight that sort of legal fight to prove it either way.
Any thoughts? Hopefully this is sensible, and a bit clearer on when we will act (i.e. when it's unequivocal ripping off) and when we won't (i.e. when we cannot be sure and it is up to the potentially agrieved party to complain and convince us that something is wrong)
Cheers,
Nick.
14 November 2003, 10:01 PM
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prodrive's spat their dummy out,there are plenty of cars "debadged" out there, nobody looks at billy basic 316 bmw and thinks "oh thats a M3"just cos it's got a M3 badge on it,just another stupid reason of papdrive (sorry)prodrive,does it mean by putting a full 22B kit on scooby then some one's going to give 22B money for it "NO,it doesn't" poeple do have common sense,if i saw a decal saying "prepared by prodrive" on scooby then i'd ask for documention,reciept's just the same as you would buying any car.i can't see by putting the words "legal fight" in your statement above make's any yahoo cos if thats the only reason's prodrive can come up with,then i'll send more dummie's to them!!!!
14 November 2003, 10:09 PM
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DJ, is there any point you're trying to make in there that helps generic policy mate? It appears that it's just a rant at prodrive.
This isn't a "have a go at prodrive", we've tried to explain that they've got to police their rights otherwise they lose them - that's about the long and short of it.
I would appreciate your thoughts on the policy as you do have opinions on this matter. We do need a policy, otherwise we'll be inconsistent.
The legal fight bit relates to scoobynet's liability as a publisher of information: if we are complicit in someone being disadvantaged financially (ripped off, loss of earnings through piracy etc) then we could be liable. We might not be, but we cannot afford to fight it hence err on the side of caution where we have to.
If you are a lawyer and can give us qualified advice that would stand up in court then please please please do drop webmaster@scoobynet.co.uk a mail as we could do with just that sort of help - seriously!
Cheers,
Nick.
[Edited by chiark - 11/14/2003 10:26:41 PM]
This isn't a "have a go at prodrive", we've tried to explain that they've got to police their rights otherwise they lose them - that's about the long and short of it.
I would appreciate your thoughts on the policy as you do have opinions on this matter. We do need a policy, otherwise we'll be inconsistent.
The legal fight bit relates to scoobynet's liability as a publisher of information: if we are complicit in someone being disadvantaged financially (ripped off, loss of earnings through piracy etc) then we could be liable. We might not be, but we cannot afford to fight it hence err on the side of caution where we have to.
If you are a lawyer and can give us qualified advice that would stand up in court then please please please do drop webmaster@scoobynet.co.uk a mail as we could do with just that sort of help - seriously!
Cheers,
Nick.
[Edited by chiark - 11/14/2003 10:26:41 PM]
15 November 2003, 06:25 PM
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This is a can of worms this. A quick search of the Scoobyshop for products containing the word replica brings 8 hits ranging from about £150 to £450 - you need to remove these to be consistent and also search very carefully for products which may infringe patents and copyrights without actually confessing to be replicas in the description. It would be hypocritical to advertise and sell these.
Once you see how many things are involved especially Sti spoilers and that - you will have a serious decision to make about removing them. Otherwise just tell Prodrive you will leave threads alone but offer to cooperate in providing IP addresses of users if they want to take legal action against the people breaking their copyrights and see if they bother - I doubt it.
Also springs to mind that there is a thread in the archives with a template to rip off the Prodrive mini mudflaps as fitted to the P1 WR with 18" wheels - that needs finding.
If Subaru Technica International kicked off about all the forged mudflaps, foglight covers etc in the threads on here you would be locking a lot of them.
This list is endless. I think you are likely to dig a big hole on this one and it may fall in on you.
People like talking about all this stuff and exchanging ideas. I don't have any stolen designs on my car but I do appreciate that Scoobynet has saved me hundreds of pounds by getting all manner of car related stuff done on the cheap and it is one thing that I like most about this board.
Could you consider moving the servers to India? I think they are one of the few countries that still don't acknowledge patents or copyright so copying stuff is not illegal there
Once you see how many things are involved especially Sti spoilers and that - you will have a serious decision to make about removing them. Otherwise just tell Prodrive you will leave threads alone but offer to cooperate in providing IP addresses of users if they want to take legal action against the people breaking their copyrights and see if they bother - I doubt it.
Also springs to mind that there is a thread in the archives with a template to rip off the Prodrive mini mudflaps as fitted to the P1 WR with 18" wheels - that needs finding.
If Subaru Technica International kicked off about all the forged mudflaps, foglight covers etc in the threads on here you would be locking a lot of them.
This list is endless. I think you are likely to dig a big hole on this one and it may fall in on you.
People like talking about all this stuff and exchanging ideas. I don't have any stolen designs on my car but I do appreciate that Scoobynet has saved me hundreds of pounds by getting all manner of car related stuff done on the cheap and it is one thing that I like most about this board.
Could you consider moving the servers to India? I think they are one of the few countries that still don't acknowledge patents or copyright so copying stuff is not illegal there
15 November 2003, 07:11 PM
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oh deary me, i don't want to go to india
as above djs right the argument by prodrive is not the best, its niave to think just because of a sticker you can sell your car for more, the bottom line is they don't want their logo on most subarus, whereas most subaru drivers would like the logo on,
the whole copyright thing will be hard to sort out for scoobynet
it could apply to anything, if someone sells some after market parts lights what would happen, the crystal repeaters from halfords aren't made by subaru, have they got a copyright issue
as above djs right the argument by prodrive is not the best, its niave to think just because of a sticker you can sell your car for more, the bottom line is they don't want their logo on most subarus, whereas most subaru drivers would like the logo on,
the whole copyright thing will be hard to sort out for scoobynet
it could apply to anything, if someone sells some after market parts lights what would happen, the crystal repeaters from halfords aren't made by subaru, have they got a copyright issue
16 November 2003, 12:40 PM
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Boost, the point is that "replica" doesn't necessarily mean "blatant copy". We went down the route of considering pulling all replica stuff from the shop, and locking every thread on scoobynet that mentioned replica, then realised it would be impossible and downright stupid and potentially damaging to the community.
Scoobynet cannot judge if something is a replica, or a new design styled in the fashion of, or an exact copy. If we ban replicas, they'll appear called something else. That does no-one any favours and means we're forever arguing internally about what is and isn't a replica.
Given that there's a whole market outside of the scooby world devoted to making replica bits, I can't see them being utterly illegal. Chatting with suppliers, most take inspiration from existing bits and make their own from scratch. If that's illegal, then there's a lot of high profile people breaking the law.
We can't effectively judge this - no one could. So, unless it's blindingly obvious copyright infringement (ie copy a DVD etc) then we cannot act without better advice.
If the situation isn't black and white, the onus is with the copyright holder to complain and prove the complaint is valid.
This is what we've been doing for a long time, but at least it's formalised now.
Cheers,
Nick.
Scoobynet cannot judge if something is a replica, or a new design styled in the fashion of, or an exact copy. If we ban replicas, they'll appear called something else. That does no-one any favours and means we're forever arguing internally about what is and isn't a replica.
Given that there's a whole market outside of the scooby world devoted to making replica bits, I can't see them being utterly illegal. Chatting with suppliers, most take inspiration from existing bits and make their own from scratch. If that's illegal, then there's a lot of high profile people breaking the law.
We can't effectively judge this - no one could. So, unless it's blindingly obvious copyright infringement (ie copy a DVD etc) then we cannot act without better advice.
If the situation isn't black and white, the onus is with the copyright holder to complain and prove the complaint is valid.
This is what we've been doing for a long time, but at least it's formalised now.
Cheers,
Nick.
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