kenny.c

Does any one know if AVA has had their 4wd rolling road fixed yet ?

Lambchop

Not 100% sure at the moment if they can take scoobs or not. i do know that for a bit they were only able to take 4x4 fords.dunno why!
I could ask if you like? or call yourself on 0141 8485257.

cheeRS

Steve

Richie1

In my opinion AVA dont have a clue about any other cars other than Fords.

I went around to see them as I was interested in a Cavalier Turbo they were modifying. After a quick chat (10 mins) I came to the conclusion that, ok they may be great on Fords, but they didnt really know Vauxhalls very much.

They seemed to think you can only get 280+BHP from the Vauxhall Turbo unit if you fit a Garett unit and they went totally against the twin headgasket route for lowering compression slightly that most other tuners do.





[Edited by Richie1 - 12/17/2001 7:09:01 AM]

slimshady

richie ,

had the same type of conversation myself with them, not impressed !

slim

Richie1

I dont have any problems recommending STAR Performance in Glenrothes. And thats not just for their 4WD setup but for the quality of service and the ppl that run the place being top notch and genuinely interested in getting as much as poss from your car.

An example was 2 RR sessions back about September time. They recently had the boost mapping section put in which involves plugging a line into your engine to measure the boost and plot it along the power graph.

They did a coupl of runs with mine as normal but were not happy with it. They explained that the valve they were using wasnt making a proper seal. After using a different valve they ran it again (I only paid for 2 runs) and I "gained" 12BHP due to no boost leaking.

The thing being this - I only paid for 2 runs and they didnt have to tell me this OR sort it but they did without a second thought. Not all places will do this.


I think everyone on this board will agree with me when I say STAR's setup is probably one of the best in the UK and THEE best in Scotland.

Rich

p.s. I am no way affiliated with STAR. I give credit when and where its due.

sasim

Cheers Richie, another crisis averted (is that how you spell it ??)

Stuart


[Edited by sasim - 12/17/2001 1:10:23 PM]

keith cowie

I WILL NEVER GO BACK TO AVA FOR THE REASON THAT ON THE DYNO DAY WE ALL STOOD ABOUT LIKE ****** FOR HOURS WHEN THEY KNEW THAT THERE ROLLING ROAD WAS F-CKED AND WAS NOT GOING TO WORK.
THEN THEY TOOK ALL OUR NAMES AND TEL NUMBERS AND WAS GOING TO CALL US FOR OUR FREE DYNO RUNS WHEN IT WAS SORTED.
HAS ANYONE HAD A PHONE CALL BECAUSE I HAVE NOT AND EVEN IF I DID I WOULD NOT LET THEM TOUCH ME SKYLINE AS I DONT THINK THEY WOULD KNOW WHERE TO START.
I HAVE BEEN TO STAR MANY TIMES NOW AND NO PROBLEM THERE
AT STAR THEY HAVE A GOOD BIT OF KIT

evojkp

Keith I can only echo your soundings mate. It was not very professional the way they handled the day. Especially with Jap Mag in attendance!! Did they ever get their write-up?? I very much doubt it.

I also have to agree with you on Stars attitude on rolling road days, although not all their kit is top class. I could mention a certain exhaust fan unit I'm certain that that is now in the skip, along with a couple of rear valance aprons.

...John

Spanpody.

I can vouch for that John, my apron is in the skip

The EVO's now fixed, absolute top job the paintshop did!

All in all my £30 rolling road day cost me £450 to fix.
Feking £250 for a bumper apron from Co-OrdSport and £200
for painting the airdam/repair to the bumper and fitting.

Shaun

Richie,

"They seemed to think you can only get 280+BHP from the Vauxhall Turbo unit if you fit a Garett unit and they went totally against the twin headgasket route for lowering compression slightly that most other tuners do."

I have owned a Calibra Turbo, and had quite a number of mods done to it. If you speak to ANY self respected tuner, anybody that suggests you put TWO headgaskets on to lower the compression is a proper monkey!!! THE only REAL/PROPER way to lower compression is to have the pistons machined!!!!!!!! I have never used AVA before, but can conclude that in this example they know what they are on about.

Regards,
Shaun.

Richie1

Shaun, I agree that the "proper" way to lower the compression on any engine is by using different pistons but thats doesnt take away the fact that some of the more reputed Vauxhall tuners use the double head gasket route as well as offering the alternative of the low comp pistons and its RELIABLE which is what it all comes down to in the end...... Easy to get 500+BHP but try and stop it blowing up within 2 weeks

It might not be the proper way to do it but there can be no argument that it works and has shown to be reliable in such cars as a 300BHP Astra MK1 Turbo amongst others......

The main thing you gotta make sure is getting quality head gaskets.


Like I said, they might know their Fords like the backs of their hands but they dont know the Vauxhall Turbos as much as they pretend they do.... this is my opinion after talking with them.

I dont know a damn thing about Skyline's which is why I wont stand there b/s my way thru a conversation with anyone about em.... likewise for some ppl and Vauxhalls


I would rather someone told me things like this before going to see a place that might or might not blow up one of the things I worked my lilly white *** off for

Shaun

I understand what you are saying, but the Vauxhall Turbo engine runs at such a high compression ratio that anybody that suggested to me to run two head gaskets to sort out my compression problem, is somebody I would walk away from. How a qualified tuner can recommend that having two headgaskets is a proven way of lowering compression is beyond me to be honest. If it was that good away of doing it, we would be using this kind of method on all engines. At the end of the day you are increasing the week point of the head and block facings, by having another layer that OIL/WATER or AIR can escape from. When running boost on any engine, the headgasket is a weak point, so by running TWO you are only increasing the risk (albeit at a slightly lesser compression ratio, but then standard cars blow them anyhow).

It may be a method that is available, but to be honest it is a bit of a butchers way of doing things, and considering you have to take the head off in the first place you might as well whip the pistons out and machine the heads.

Lambchop

keith/john
sorry you feel that way about ava
i was at the day that was cancelled at the last moment.i was there in the moonstone 3 door.
They had spent the whole night trying to rectify the problem and did all they could to try and fix it.unfortunately it wasn't repairable in the end.

richie
you're a bit of a chuff eh?
double headgasket? lmao haha
They did a very smart conversion on a cav turbo and presumably its the one you spoke about.It had an 8 injector setup and everything and is most likely one of the most powerful cavs around.think in the end it made 220ish @wheels which is roughly the same as my stage1 cossie.
Sorry that they can't get a lot out of it in the end but at the end of the day vauxhall never gave them much to work with did they? lmao


Chopski

Richie1

hehe Lambchop....

I dont have anything against them at all mate but I dont like ppl that try and make out more than they actually do thats all.

Most powerful Cavalier around ?? You havent seen the 300BHP ECOTEC turbo then ??

The guy with the cavalier conversion from AVA says he gets 247BHP@front wheels on about 1 bar of boost. Mine is around 205BHP@front wheels on 0.5bar of boost (ran it in 4WD and it came back with 238BHP and 243lb/ft at fly..... around 30BHP lost in 2WD)

Come Friday it should be running a bit more around the 280BHP flywheel (hopefully around 250BHP@front wheels) until around April/May time when I get other stuff done.


The AVA one sounds like a quick car but certainly aint the most powerful Cavalier/Calibra around


Doh, missed that last bit of your post Lambsie

You are right. Vauxhall didnt give anyone a lot to go on and the most restrictive part of the whole setup is the Moronic (no not a typo ) engine management. Its the sort that, whatever you try and do to get more power, finds a way of turning it back down to "keep it safe".

There are ways and means of solving this nowadays. There is serious tuning gear coming from the continent capable of taking these cars to RELIABLE 350+BHP including uprated transfer boxes to cope with power above this.

The continent treat Opel cars the way the UK have treated Cosworths..... Have a look at this site for a bit more info if you want - http://www.eds-motorsport.de/indexenglisch.htm


Most ppl have under-rated the Cavalier/Calibra turbos in the last few years even tho they are a match for a UK spec scooby and a standard Cosworth. Now that proper tuning is available, it makes it even more interesting



[Edited by Richie1 - 12/19/2001 9:20:29 AM]

[Edited by Richie1 - 12/19/2001 9:21:46 AM]

TFyus

When i read this topic i had to put a reply... im in aussie at the moment otherwise i would have replied a little sooner.

AVA know what they are doing... one simple conversation when they recomend NOT using double head gaskets or that the pace chargecooler system for the cavy turbo is rubbish is not a reason to say they dont know what they are doing... Double headgasket is a totally CRAP way of lowering the compression on any car... what normally blows on an engine... or to put it another way... its not unusual to see a head gasket blowing on a POWERFUL car that is used all the time for say 10,000 mls plus a year... to then put in TWO possibilities by adding ANOTHER weakness into the system is a lame cheap way of lowering the compression... reliability with AVA conversions is about BIG mileage and proper jobs... my rst tuning is carried out there.. and on 13.5 psi on my ORIGINAL 1600 cc bottome end and 150,000 miles i have the second fastest top speed rst recorded using the original 1600 ( ie not a 2 litre or whatever ).... so thats reliability...

i have been in loads of there cars... they arent interested in cheapy fixes or any of that crap... just proper work... decompressed engines turbos that are NOT beyond their limit and power figures that are genuine at the wheels only not BULL...

i ALSO was at that rolling road day that didnt work out... i had driven 150 miles from aberdeen to get there... not to participate just to watch and chat and join int he fun with everyone... i was there LONG after everyone else left... they were REALLY destraught that the computer had failed we were talking about it afterwards... they HATE wasting anyones time and are genuine as hell.

They are the only tuning company that i would trust my car to... simple as that. They know shed loads about fords as u say but if u reckon thats all it goes to then u are seriously wrong. I know of a 2 litre astra kinda m reg style that they turbo'd that is fast and reliable the cavvy that we are talking about aswell.. a full on reliable job... not the limits of where they can take the car by any means.... the bmw's MEGA converions turboing BIG engines and so many others... martins cossie with 305 at the rear wheels... which went for the limiter in fifth like a std scuny turbo pulls 110... dave_edwards rst running SO much more than my own... its running 270 at the front wheels at the moment and awaiting a new gearbox for its final run up... expect over 300 at the wheels.. reliable ENGINE wise... but driveshafts and that might dies ... te he... as the car is only designed for like 110 as std and 300 is ALOT more...

they also look for fuel economy... my rst ( 2nd fastest recorded 1600 cc rst ) runs 30 to the gallon cruising at 75 80 ish...

anyhows i totally understand why everyone was upset with that rolling road day... but i can 100% lay it down and assure u that ALL of u lot added together were not more upset and destraught that AVA were at the failing that day..they stayed up ALL night working on it and were always hoping they could get it working.

as for them calling those numbers once they are ready for subarus ill lay my own life down that they do that.

And im only a customer...

ps my wee rst at 13.5 psi... saw off most of this bbs when they turned up at a track day at knockhill... up the straight we could handle the evo 6 running apexi boost controllers etc and all the subaru's there...

to add i had a great day and wished i was back in the uk to have another shot... the car might be ther soon but not me driving it!! ...

anyhows all the best u lot... and dont stress about ava's knowledge they know fine amounts about most things...

Steven Ross-Watt
(tfyus@hotmail.com if u want to take this up any further)

Russs

Sorry, with Richie on this one.

If they know so much about tuning turbo motors, why did they go to the trouble of putting 8(!) injectors on the Cav turbo we are talking about, when a simple upgrade to greens or blues would do?!?
Christ, even a fifth injector would make more sense, and has been used frequently with good results on these cars.

Likewise, they dumped the whole (perfectly tuneable) turbo setup for another one?!?

Perhaps they wanted to charge the guy a fortune............

Either that, or they are applying knowledge gained from one car to another completely different one - never a good idea. Basic principles stand, but using different turbos just 'cos they know them better?!?


Russ

evojkp

At the end of the day, what the hell does it matter what they can do or not. They let down a LOT of people on the day and failed to communicate any updates on progress as to fixing the RR. They left potential future customers standing about, finding shelter from the cold for most of the day with no information as to what was going on.

How much business sense did that make. Lets leave everyone standing about like to%%ers so that we may make a buck today!!

Sorry IMHO not a very professional attitude. Even the Jap Mag reporter had to go looking for info.

I have heard good reports about AVA but if they can't treat the paying public properly.....

...John

ColinU

My tuppence worth...

Never been to AVA, but have a very reliable source of info regarding them (the owners brother is a good mate of mine and he never bullsh!tes me).

From previous conversations with my mate...
AVA set up years ago mainly working on BMWs (they have done very impressive BMW work). AVA pride themselves in not being another grease monkey or quik-fit mechanic outfit. The owner (Alan) should be consider more of a true engineer. He takes a lot of time in thinking any mods through, understanding the overall impact (incl practicality and reliability), and won't do a mod "just because that's what every one else does".

Regarding the rolling road problem: Alan/AVA we're really gutted about what happened. What I'd say is these things just happen. Hands up anyone who hasn't had something go belly-up last minuite at work and had to disappoint a lot of folks/customers? Let he without sin cast the first stone...


-ColinU.

P.S.
My mate (a speed skier) set the UK's "how fast can you go strapped to the top of a car" years ago. That was on an AVA prep'd car (Saab I think)... and the record still stands.

stage 1

As far as the **** up- true and yes they probably did handle it wrong. I was supposed to be there and had to travel for a job interview and missed it so you can lay into me too. At the moment they have too much business to spend the time on the rolling road development and the backups that need to be put in place to make them happy. It will happen at some point but they are only a very small company with no free resources.

But there are bloody good reasons for the cavs tune - 8 injectors for standard fuel consumption off boost and better atomisation at full pelt to avoid bore wash... Something greens and definately blues are much worse for. If the standard turbo is so adequate why does it glow like a beast at the first sign of a stage 1 tune - cos its too small as tests for back pressure proved on the car.

My friend has a nova that was down with double head gaskets by a VERY reputable vaux tuner down south - less than 400 miles and it was mega failing

Martin

boffin

Forgive me, but should you not be posting your coments here http://www.vivaclub.freeserve.co.uk/

Kev-G

As far as set-up goes, AVA have the best in the country - PERIOD. They run the biggest possible rollers to avoid any problems with wheel-spin, the largest and most powerful fan of ANY RR in the country and PROPER extraction. The control system has also been designed and built in-house - Does it not suggest that they have some kind of idea what they are doing??

With regards to the failure on the day of the RR Shoot-out, I think ColinU struck it on the head - 'Hands up anyone who hasn't had something go belly-up last minute at work and had to disappoint a lot of folks/customers?' These things do happen, but it is how you deal with issue which ultimately reflects - Maybe this could have been better, but while their customer service could be improved (and reading some posts on here this applies to all companies - bad news travels V. quickly), I wouldn't doubt their capability. As stage1 also points out that they are a small operation, and have to work first and foremost to pay the bills, but I do know that they have put in more than a few late nights on the dyno. to get it working.

To be honest I have only spent money with AVA a couple of times (1 RR Tune and 1 fault diagnosis), but IMO they are Engineers as opposed to bolt-on merchants - double head gaskets ARE for muppets despite what 'experts' are saying - eight injectors ARE a properly engineered solution rather than simply adding BIG injectors. Making BIG power is relatively easy....Making BIG power RELIABLY is a different proposition - While bolt-on conversions may indeed do the job without any problems, there is always a right way to do something - This often has a cost (witness the large # of posts comparing ie. Superchips v's Motec, Eibach springs v's Leda coil-overs) but the RIGHT way is ultimately dependent upon what the customer wants.

Kev-G
PS - Nothing to do with AVA etc., etc.

Richie1

I go away for a coupl eof days and it all hits the fan

I have a couple of points here. I notice that everyone "defending" AVA are Ford owners/drivers etc. If you have a look at most of my posts on the topic I have clearly stated that they may know a lot about Ford tuning but they dont know that much about Vauxhall tuning.

Lambchop, Stage 1, TFyus etc - I'm glad you have had great experiences with AVA but as I have said earlier here, drive a ford to them and you will....

Any of you lot here know how the Vauxhall turbo engine works ??

I doubt it.... so whats the idea on telling ppl that do how to best tune it etc ?? Sounds like a place I know of when it comes to Vauxhalls.... wait a min, that'll be AVA


Someone was thinking of taking their car to AVA. I thought it would be helpful to let them know my opinion... I aint the only one here with the same opinion on them either.... lemme guess, Stage 1 etc have never had a bad thing to say about any company where someone else is singing their praises ??

I have never once said they are crap in general....

[Edited by Richie1 - 12/22/2001 2:51:45 PM]

TFyus

oh well ...

eight injectors give decent fuel economy... off boost as the standard ones fuel standard cruise fueling... something that bigger injectors like greens cannot do... then the other 4 kick in on power and add extra at the correct level of atomisation...

why is that worse that 4 big ones? are all the decent big cossies running injectors?... it makes sense... as for the std little turbo... whats the point in stressing it soooo much when it can be replaced by something bigger and better suited to the job??... whys that bad|??... and then cowboy double head gaskets are better than a properly engineered low compression engine? hows that bad?

a proper conversion always costs more... but its by definition proper and reliable...

anyhows ... lets not stress about it.. they dont just work on fords... it just happens that there are a lot of petrol head ford owners who want there car to go faster...

lets not argue about it.

rw

supraTT

Richie mate ..........

In all fairness its all fair and well you and Russ doing this on a Vauxhall board, but you really should watch what you are saying about people and companies on a public board....it could come down to a case of defamation of character / libel if the wrong person reads this !

Remember that this is a scooby board, and even me being a Supra owner wouldnt be brave enough to say what you have.....

supraTT

Having spoken to Benny McCallum tonight ( the guy who owns the Cavalier at AVA ), he is not very amused at seeing all of this and has had a problem registering with the site, he has asked me to post the following.....word for word on his behalf:-

Hi guys its my car thats getting the slagging here by the way !. Yes its really a cavalier with 8 injectors, yes it really does have the Garrett Turbo and yes i have spent a small fortune on the car!!
I feel like i have been spending the last 4 or 5 weeks defending AVA for what they have done to my car, against what other people have chosen to do. Just because myself and AVA have decided to apply genuine engineering principles regarding the upgrading of my car rather than following the rest of the cattledoes not make it wrong or give anyone the right to criticise.
Alan, as many of you will know, uses his BRAIN and will not fit or adjust something that is not correct or safe etc.
He fitted my additional injectors and AVA management because the Motronic 2.7 is crapand holds the car back. He wanted to ditch the Motronic altogether, but no i myself wanted to keep my trip computer etc. (would Regal or Courtenay have been able to do that?)
So i gave them more work to do, thinking about how to run 2 ECU's and yes this customer is very fussy!. 8 Injectors later and the car is run up with a whopping 200BHP at front wheels!!! 10 bhp more than before !!!
So the search started for the missing horsepower! I had a 2.5" exhaust in s/s made by RMS in Prestwick which had....6psi backpressure yes 6psi !!!
A thermocouple was also installed as they do this with most cars...do Star ??
Intercooler temp was ridiculous at nearly 70 degrees !So no more power til this was done. When i decided to go for the new exhaust etc, I DECIDED not AVA on a new turbounit, i still believe for more power you need to upgrade from the small KKK Unit and i didnt want to find later that it was time to upgrade and then have to refabricate my exhaust !
AVA Made my exhaust over quite a few monthsand i t hink you could probably take it off and put it in the Glasgow Art Gallery !Intercooler is now 4x RS Turbo's Jobs which has made a superb difference at less than 30 degreesmaximum now.
So i ended up with 247 @ front wheels with unleaded fuel (I insisted on Unleaded)
Next step for me is mapped for super unleaded and maybe some work with the exhaust manifold to Turbo. My block is also decompressed, AVA shortened the Rods by 1mm, does anyone else do that ???? no they all buy £500 worth of pistons, and AVA also wire rung my block !!
I have said it on other Boards, but AVA set the standard, not follow others, and someone else who has experience of their work will agree.
People coming in off the street, not hearing the answers they want to hear,and deciding that AVA know nothing about Vauxhalls is just one example of the narrow mindedness AVA come up against every single day!
I intend to print-out these posts for Alan at AVA to read because i know he is disappointed in the problem with the new rolling road and he does maintain he wants to correct this if you will let him.

FINALLY ..... Someone who says they know about engines but cannot put a spark plug in correctly should be very wary of their remarks !!

When i was at AVA today, the 4 Wheel Drive road is not set up yet.

Bernard McCallum

Richie1

Oi Benny, you starting to get personal ??

Funny, you have been doing this to everyone else who you see cant have the power or reliability you have because they havent spend £5000 on the car including £1200 for an exhaust !!!!


You may have decided this and thats fine but during talking to them it was THEM that said to ME that you have to upgrade to a Garett. I didnt say they pushed you into it. I said THEY told ME you have to do it. I didnt even know you were getting it done then.

Ok then I guess SBD (who make/tune race engines), Courtenay (who tune Vauxhalls) are all complete ***** for doing the same thing ??

Get a grip Benny, things like that happen to the best places as shown above. How do I know ?? I asked them !!!


You print them out. There is nowt libellous here as its clearly stated that it is MY opinion and NOT this boards opinion.... Am I not allowed to have one now as it doesnt match yours ??


Apologies to the Scooby board, this was a post that, amongst other stuff, contained my own PERSONAL views on this company which a few ppl agree with I might add.


Sorry forgot to add this bit -

Michael, it may be a Vauxhall I drive but I can still post on here and the views about this topic arent changed by what I drive



[Edited by Richie1 - 1/18/2002 12:04:13 PM]

Lambchop

"Funny, you have been doing this to everyone else who you see cant have the power or reliability you have because they havent spend £5000 on the car including £1200 for an exhaust !!!!
"

I'll bet that noone else has the power or reliability that benny does!thats what ava pride themselves on!economy and reliability while gaining good horsepower.

What mods do you have ritchie?


Benny(if you can read this somehow)
i saw your car many times at ava and its lovely!heard it running once and it sounded wicked.what a note!tom did a good job on the exhaust eh?
whens the remap on SU and why did you choose U the 1st time?wouldn't mind a spin sometime i'm down


Steve

Richie1

I'll take that bet and happily releive you off your cash Lambsie

I have seen 3 Vauxhalls so far make 272BHP, 276BHP and 304BHP with my own eyes. There are others down South but I havent seen them. One particular MK1 Astra springs to mind. Running approx 300BHP for the last 1-2 years and no problems.... this reliable enough for you ??


At present I have a cutom intercooler and Unichip. Havent had the car rolling roaded to see what its getting since putting the chip in (Rolling road day on 3rd Feb) but running the intercooler only with 0.5bar boost gave me 239BHP and 243lb/ft

The Unichip will be running between 1.1 and 1.35 bar boost

sasim

From what I can see what started off as a serious question has been turned into a lets slag off AVA session, and then progressed into lets slag off each others opinions. I have also received complaints from other Scoobynet members who agree that this has just turned into a slagging match.

I had decided earlier this afternoon to lock this thread, and indeed I did lock it for a short while, as it is really going nowhere and could potentially cause harm to the reputations of both AVA and Scoobynet. However, after a rethink (and taking onboard some advise) I have decided to re-open it.

Please do not post any more messages just to slag off other peoples opinions or technical knowledge, lets try to have a positive discussion about a very interesting tuning/mod subject (that coming from a Scoob owner )and leave your opinions on the technical abilities of AVA out of it.

Cheers

Stuart

[Edited by sasim - 1/18/2002 7:14:05 PM]

Lambchop

ooooops i forgot about this post

richie
get yer car down ava for a run up and see what yer power is.that way you can compare with bennys car

go on i dare ya