Wet handling in new STi
14 May 2002, 03:33 PM
#1
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 516
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Delighted with my new STi Type UK. So refined and performance is certainly adequate if not startling. Howver, I have noticed that compared to my old MY98, the wet grip is poor. Going round a wet roundabout, the front end will understeer very easily, even at low speeds.
What have other STi owners noticed about grip in the wet?
I think that it might be the tyres since the F1s that I had on the last car were excellent in the wet, and alot better than anything else I had tried before.
D.
What have other STi owners noticed about grip in the wet?
I think that it might be the tyres since the F1s that I had on the last car were excellent in the wet, and alot better than anything else I had tried before.
D.
14 May 2002, 03:41 PM
#2
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 5,582
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
DJB I think you've just said the answer mate.The OEM tyres are pants,should be much better once you get F1s/Toyos etc on.By the way are'nt you finding the front LSD helps to 'drag' you around corners and counter understeer.
14 May 2002, 03:52 PM
#3
Scooby Regular
Join Date: May 2000
Location: MY00,MY01,RX-8, Alfa 147 & Focus ST :-)
Posts: 10,371
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
True about the LSD, but beware as there was a long thread about this a few weeks back. There was a guy who managed to spin his new STI, by doing exactly that in the wet - keeping his foot down thinking that the LSD would counteract the understeer. In fact it snapped back and caused the car to spin. I'm sure Diablo will fill you in on the details! I'll try and find the thread for you. Also bear in mind that Scoob's ain't magic. If you go round a wet roundabout or sharp corner there will always be a tendency to understeer as your grip level is going to be reduced. The Scoob is bloody amazing compared to most cars in the wet, but it is not full proof.
Chris
Chris
14 May 2002, 03:59 PM
#4
Scooby Regular
Join Date: May 2000
Location: MY00,MY01,RX-8, Alfa 147 & Focus ST :-)
Posts: 10,371
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
DJB
Found the thread! Have a look at this for a lot of useful information.
Quote from Diablo's first post:
Cheers
Chris
[Edited by Chris L - 5/14/2002 4:02:51 PM]
Found the thread! Have a look at this for a lot of useful information.
Quote from Diablo's first post:
The fact that a front LSD can, in certain circumstances, reduce understeer under power in the dry without provoking oversteer but increase it in the wet (up to the point where the max available % of torque suddenly goes rearwards as in this case provoking oversteer), is one (very important) point which escapes many
Chris
[Edited by Chris L - 5/14/2002 4:02:51 PM]
14 May 2002, 10:25 PM
#6
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 516
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dave T-S
The car has done only 1600 miles and yes they are standard RE040. These are presumably a development of the RE010s fitted to my MY98 when new. I don't remember that the wet handling was as bad in the MY98.
Chris L
I read this thread with interest when it was originally posted. However, I think that this refers to fairly extreme, on the limit handling which I'm too scared to try anywhere on public roads. I was talking about low speed wet roundabouts, where the front end takes an understeer course with minimal throttle input. It is reminiscent of the time when I had PZero's on my MY98 which were truly awful in the wet.
D.
The car has done only 1600 miles and yes they are standard RE040. These are presumably a development of the RE010s fitted to my MY98 when new. I don't remember that the wet handling was as bad in the MY98.
Chris L
I read this thread with interest when it was originally posted. However, I think that this refers to fairly extreme, on the limit handling which I'm too scared to try anywhere on public roads. I was talking about low speed wet roundabouts, where the front end takes an understeer course with minimal throttle input. It is reminiscent of the time when I had PZero's on my MY98 which were truly awful in the wet.
D.
15 May 2002, 08:53 AM
#7
Scooby Regular
DJB
Ok, enough miles for the tyres to be run in then.
The RE040 is a radial tread pattern tyre with a lot of solid tread and not many rain channels.
Just by looking at it you can tell it will most likely be a very good dry tarmac tyre and a bit lacking in the wet. In practice, it is exactly that.
I have found you *can* push the car quite hard in the wet but you have to treat it with great respect or it will bite you.
A change of tyre to Toyo (particularly, as it has a diagonal tread pattern with open tread and plenty of rain clearance channels) will undoubtably improve wet weather grip no end as the standard RE040's cannot clear the water quick enough when it is wet, particularly if there is standing water on the road.
PS - as to it seeming to be worse than the MY98 with RE010's on, I would say from personal experience that is probably because you are going much faster in similar circumstances in the STi7 LOL
[Edited by Dave T-S - 5/15/2002 8:55:18 AM]
Ok, enough miles for the tyres to be run in then.
The RE040 is a radial tread pattern tyre with a lot of solid tread and not many rain channels.
Just by looking at it you can tell it will most likely be a very good dry tarmac tyre and a bit lacking in the wet. In practice, it is exactly that.
I have found you *can* push the car quite hard in the wet but you have to treat it with great respect or it will bite you.
A change of tyre to Toyo (particularly, as it has a diagonal tread pattern with open tread and plenty of rain clearance channels) will undoubtably improve wet weather grip no end as the standard RE040's cannot clear the water quick enough when it is wet, particularly if there is standing water on the road.
PS - as to it seeming to be worse than the MY98 with RE010's on, I would say from personal experience that is probably because you are going much faster in similar circumstances in the STi7 LOL
[Edited by Dave T-S - 5/15/2002 8:55:18 AM]
Trending Topics
15 May 2002, 11:41 AM
#10
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 13,735
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Any car with this sort of power that is aimed at enthusiastic drivers needs to be treated with respect...
Any car's dangerous. When I test drove the STI, I loved the whole package and that was caning it around wet roundabouts on a very wet day.
Drive it too fast and you'll wrap it around something. Pretty much like any car.
Any car's dangerous. When I test drove the STI, I loved the whole package and that was caning it around wet roundabouts on a very wet day.
Drive it too fast and you'll wrap it around something. Pretty much like any car.
15 May 2002, 12:25 PM
#11
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Surrey, UK
Posts: 8,384
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'd say you need to get some GY F1s again mate.. I switch to them on my WRX from PZero Rossos - it made a huge difference in the wet!
The OEM tyres have never been known for their outstanding performance in wet conditions..
Alex
The OEM tyres have never been known for their outstanding performance in wet conditions..
Alex
18 May 2002, 10:59 PM
#12
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 516
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Still trying to learn how to drive this car. So different from previous MY98, in fact I find it much more difficult to drive than the MY98 in the wet.
The understeer comes so easily, its scary. I drove a 20 mile journey tonight over wet roads. There were lots of small roundabouts to practise on.
First the lazy approach - normal speed approach, dab on the brakes just before the apex and then feather the throttle to maintain speed. Result - moderate to severe understeer depending on lock applied. Instinctive back-off kills understeer.
Now if I used this approach in the last car (with F1s fitted), understeer was absent or slight and easily controlled.
Second approach - a bit more aggressive. This almost always worked on the MY98 but in the STi, the understeer is scary. One time tonight, I had to do the almost unthinkable and brake to avoid running into a kerb because of understeer.
Third approach - nailing the throttle at the apex.
Now this approach scares me because I am too inexperienced to deal with the problems which might be encountered. This worked well and you could feel the effect of the LSD tranferring traction, on applying the power. Problem was, when this happens, its sudden and feels like its going to overshoot - not tail-out oversteer but just feels like you've got too much lock on. You then instinctively back-off leading to rather jerky progress.
So still not worked out the best way. Any advice gratefully received.
D.
The understeer comes so easily, its scary. I drove a 20 mile journey tonight over wet roads. There were lots of small roundabouts to practise on.
First the lazy approach - normal speed approach, dab on the brakes just before the apex and then feather the throttle to maintain speed. Result - moderate to severe understeer depending on lock applied. Instinctive back-off kills understeer.
Now if I used this approach in the last car (with F1s fitted), understeer was absent or slight and easily controlled.
Second approach - a bit more aggressive. This almost always worked on the MY98 but in the STi, the understeer is scary. One time tonight, I had to do the almost unthinkable and brake to avoid running into a kerb because of understeer.
Third approach - nailing the throttle at the apex.
Now this approach scares me because I am too inexperienced to deal with the problems which might be encountered. This worked well and you could feel the effect of the LSD tranferring traction, on applying the power. Problem was, when this happens, its sudden and feels like its going to overshoot - not tail-out oversteer but just feels like you've got too much lock on. You then instinctively back-off leading to rather jerky progress.
So still not worked out the best way. Any advice gratefully received.
D.
18 May 2002, 11:04 PM
#13
Scooby Newbie
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm hopefully trading my MY99 for a new STI, so looks like my excuse to fit some new wheels/tyres is here
Think I'll be a little careful trying to power out of an understeer moment
John
Think I'll be a little careful trying to power out of an understeer moment
John
18 May 2002, 11:23 PM
#15
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 516
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
DrEvil
After reading another post on the tracking being out on a new STi, I been wondering about this.
Has anyone else noticed this much understeer or is it just me? I originally thought it was the tyres, but if I'm the only one to notice, then maladjusted tracking seems more likely.
D.
After reading another post on the tracking being out on a new STi, I been wondering about this.
Has anyone else noticed this much understeer or is it just me? I originally thought it was the tyres, but if I'm the only one to notice, then maladjusted tracking seems more likely.
D.
18 May 2002, 11:28 PM
#16
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Surrey, UK
Posts: 8,384
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
DJB - I've found on all four scoobs I've had that the geo settings (from new) were within manufacturer specifications - but were not optimum. The PDI does not included a geo check, so when you pick up a new car, its geo hasn't been check since it left Japan..
Also, it would seem that the camber/tow settings are always geared up on the scoob in favour of understeer, so perhaps a TSL style geo or similar would be benefical - my WRX was transformed after TSL put it on their laser alignment kit and put their recommended settngs on it... My P1 was much better after Mill Lane set the geo up on their laser alignment kit... and my GX is going to TSL in the near future
Hope this helps, Alex
Also, it would seem that the camber/tow settings are always geared up on the scoob in favour of understeer, so perhaps a TSL style geo or similar would be benefical - my WRX was transformed after TSL put it on their laser alignment kit and put their recommended settngs on it... My P1 was much better after Mill Lane set the geo up on their laser alignment kit... and my GX is going to TSL in the near future
Hope this helps, Alex
19 May 2002, 01:27 AM
#17
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 122
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
LEARN HOW TO DRIVE!!!
You lot who reckon that the STi understeers to much and is scary, have no idea how to drive.
Go back to Subaru and trade your rex's in for an outback or something slower.
Better yet....take the bus!!!
Get the hell off our roads if u dont know how to drive.
You lot who reckon that the STi understeers to much and is scary, have no idea how to drive.
Go back to Subaru and trade your rex's in for an outback or something slower.
Better yet....take the bus!!!
Get the hell off our roads if u dont know how to drive.
19 May 2002, 08:25 AM
#18
Scooby Regular
DJB/Alex
My local dealer who supplied our STi's (Welch Group, Cambridge)includes an alignment check in the PDI on ALL Imprezas.
I may be wrong, but would have thought this would go for all dealers.
Having had six Imprezas now, from three different dealers, I cannot say I have noticed any geometry issues. Put it this way, I have just got in them and driven them, and never felt the setup might be out.
No disrespect to anybody that carries out alignment, but there seems to be a big "mystery" to all this bad Impreza alignment that has sprung up and is carried into folklore, and I cannot believe every other Impreza that comes out of the factory is badly set up.
My own personal feedback is that a tyre change will bring the biggest returns, but saying that I have not had a problem pedalling any of them cross country on the OEM RE010/011 and 040 tyres even when pouring with rain.
By all means get the alignment checked, but I will be surprised if it is badly out.
My local dealer who supplied our STi's (Welch Group, Cambridge)includes an alignment check in the PDI on ALL Imprezas.
I may be wrong, but would have thought this would go for all dealers.
Having had six Imprezas now, from three different dealers, I cannot say I have noticed any geometry issues. Put it this way, I have just got in them and driven them, and never felt the setup might be out.
No disrespect to anybody that carries out alignment, but there seems to be a big "mystery" to all this bad Impreza alignment that has sprung up and is carried into folklore, and I cannot believe every other Impreza that comes out of the factory is badly set up.
My own personal feedback is that a tyre change will bring the biggest returns, but saying that I have not had a problem pedalling any of them cross country on the OEM RE010/011 and 040 tyres even when pouring with rain.
By all means get the alignment checked, but I will be surprised if it is badly out.
19 May 2002, 10:42 AM
#19
BANNED
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: LIVERPOOL THE CENTRE OF EXCELLENCE
Posts: 8,511
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
lots of talk about changing tyres here...
If anyones getting rid of good RE011's Ill buy them,coz I drive like a wuss so there fine for me
If youve got any leave message here or in for sale FAO Yoza thanks
If anyones getting rid of good RE011's Ill buy them,coz I drive like a wuss so there fine for me
If youve got any leave message here or in for sale FAO Yoza thanks
19 May 2002, 10:57 AM
#20
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: London
Posts: 7,039
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dave,
I agree that the most likely culprit is the tyres as we all know the RE040's are cheap and nasty!!!!
However, when I took my MY00 to Powerstation at about 1000 miles for the Bump Steer Mod and associated Geom, it was way out. Nick, after setting up the equipment asked me if it pulled to the left and did it feel vauge on hard cornering/hard to tell where the limit was? The answer to both questions was yes. He showed me that the tracking was way out and the the rear wheels were pointing in different directions
After the BSM + Geom, I couldn't believe it was the same car!!!! He said that mine was fairly normal in the "factory set, out of alignment stakes" but he's seen worse and of course, better.
When I test drove Lavender Hill's STi with 180 miles on it, it pulled to the left fairly noticably and felt very vauge in general. I put this down to both the Geom being out and the cheap tyres.
When I get mine, it'll be going down to PS fairly quickly for a proper Geom setup plus some other "bits" (
) to improve the handling.....
Knowing you and your driving style/experience, I would say that your experience must be on the lucky end as I'm sure if your Geom was out, you would have noticed it (but perhaps your bum is not just quite sensitive enough?
)
Cheers,
Matt
I agree that the most likely culprit is the tyres as we all know the RE040's are cheap and nasty!!!!
However, when I took my MY00 to Powerstation at about 1000 miles for the Bump Steer Mod and associated Geom, it was way out. Nick, after setting up the equipment asked me if it pulled to the left and did it feel vauge on hard cornering/hard to tell where the limit was? The answer to both questions was yes. He showed me that the tracking was way out and the the rear wheels were pointing in different directions
After the BSM + Geom, I couldn't believe it was the same car!!!! He said that mine was fairly normal in the "factory set, out of alignment stakes" but he's seen worse and of course, better.
When I test drove Lavender Hill's STi with 180 miles on it, it pulled to the left fairly noticably and felt very vauge in general. I put this down to both the Geom being out and the cheap tyres.
When I get mine, it'll be going down to PS fairly quickly for a proper Geom setup plus some other "bits" (
) to improve the handling.....Knowing you and your driving style/experience, I would say that your experience must be on the lucky end as I'm sure if your Geom was out, you would have noticed it (but perhaps your bum is not just quite sensitive enough?
)Cheers,
Matt
19 May 2002, 07:30 PM
#23
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Surrey, UK
Posts: 8,384
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dave,
I'm afraid not, I've had four Subaru dealers in this area confirm that neither they or subaru check the geometry as part of the PDI, as it isn't 'budgeted' by IM.
May be done out of courtsey oopp north
My '02 could definitely do with a laser based geo check n fix!
Alex
[Edited by DrEvil - 5/19/2002 7:32:55 PM]
I'm afraid not, I've had four Subaru dealers in this area confirm that neither they or subaru check the geometry as part of the PDI, as it isn't 'budgeted' by IM.
May be done out of courtsey oopp north
My '02 could definitely do with a laser based geo check n fix!
Alex
[Edited by DrEvil - 5/19/2002 7:32:55 PM]
20 May 2002, 11:27 PM
#24
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 516
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Beginning to get used to handling in the wet. I'm sure the tyres are part of the problem but I've now realised that this car requires a completely different driving style. I still find it more difficult to drive round fast twisty bits than my old MY98. The only way to kill wet road understeer on the STi is to keep the power on. You need to be in the power band for this to work (less than 4000 revs and its pointless). The moment understeer sets in, you just add a little extra throttle and it magically disappears. Goes against the grain a bit since this did not work as well on the MY98.
D.
D.
21 May 2002, 11:40 PM
#25
Scooby Newbie
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dr. Evil,
Sorry to dig up this old link, but it's taken a couple of days to register/get password/be awake enough to type...
You mentioned Mill Lane and setting up the car. I've got the message that setting the geometry isn't part of the dealers concern when selling a car, but from them I got the 'ole "car with more than 2 miles on the clock and canvas showing on the inner off-side is a reflection of the way the driver must bounce off curbs as they drive" routine and wonder if they can set the car up PROPERLY if I take it back (and pay, of course as "we are not a charity").
PS I guess we're talking about the B'Stoke ML!
Sorry to dig up this old link, but it's taken a couple of days to register/get password/be awake enough to type...
You mentioned Mill Lane and setting up the car. I've got the message that setting the geometry isn't part of the dealers concern when selling a car, but from them I got the 'ole "car with more than 2 miles on the clock and canvas showing on the inner off-side is a reflection of the way the driver must bounce off curbs as they drive" routine and wonder if they can set the car up PROPERLY if I take it back (and pay, of course as "we are not a charity").
PS I guess we're talking about the B'Stoke ML!
22 May 2002, 08:31 AM
#27
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 13,735
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
5903,
I have an MY00, just put new T1s proxes on the P1 wheels.
Wanna swap?
Nick.
PS - aquaplaning happens on any car, it's a function of water depth, tyre width and speed (IIRC). Wider the tyres, the more likely to aquaplane... As well as that, the tread pattern on the Pzero rossos and RE040s is not really designed to squeegee water off the roads, whereas SO2s and T1Ss look like they're absolutely designed for this!
I have an MY00, just put new T1s proxes on the P1 wheels.
Wanna swap?
Nick.
PS - aquaplaning happens on any car, it's a function of water depth, tyre width and speed (IIRC). Wider the tyres, the more likely to aquaplane... As well as that, the tread pattern on the Pzero rossos and RE040s is not really designed to squeegee water off the roads, whereas SO2s and T1Ss look like they're absolutely designed for this!
22 May 2002, 08:44 AM
#28
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: essex
Posts: 868
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
i had an order for a sti before i actually test drove one so when i got the chance to test drive one it was pouring with rain i first noticed when i booted it in first gear the car would learch to the left not uncontrollably but there anyway at one point i did a u turn at a turn right point on a dual carriageway booted it and woah the car went sideways for 25 yards comparing it to my my00 262bhp it felt out of control
over the next weekend i decided that the car was not up to my style of driving and decided to get my deposit back
now i am not saying the car with different geometry and tyres would would not improve it it is just that i lost confidence with the cars limits
when i posted these comments up before i was flamed so it is nice to see that i am not the only one not completly at ease with the cars limits
over the next weekend i decided that the car was not up to my style of driving and decided to get my deposit back
now i am not saying the car with different geometry and tyres would would not improve it it is just that i lost confidence with the cars limits
when i posted these comments up before i was flamed so it is nice to see that i am not the only one not completly at ease with the cars limits
22 May 2002, 01:27 PM
#29
Scooby Regular
To present the alternative view, on the same daily cross country roads my findings are that the STi on standard tyres is *much* quicker point to point than either my old MY00 or MY01 on Leda/18's/AP 6 pots - wet or dry.
22 May 2002, 02:05 PM
#30
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: North Yorks, MY03 PPP, now run a Mondeo ST TDCI 06
Posts: 1,032
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bugwaan you P**ck, guess you are an expert on corners, living in Australia, the only time you need to steer is to avoid one of those large hopping rabbits!!!
People on here are expressing their opinions and don't appreciate completely useless comments from you.
Please post your comments in the muppet forum next time.
People on here are expressing their opinions and don't appreciate completely useless comments from you.
Please post your comments in the muppet forum next time.