Tuning an auto
25 May 2012, 09:55 PM
#2
Yes you can,I have done 5 in the last 2 yrs 
.The most common upgrade on an auto is to swap your td04 for a td05,then swap your 3B for a Z4 ecu(this is me presuming you have a 93 - 96 car), failing that you can do the normal decat,induction kit,etc,but well worth getting it checked out afterwards to make sure it is running ok.
Funnily enough I am off to see Bob Rawle
again in 3 weeks time to have an wrx auto remapped with a simtek ecu 
.
.The most common upgrade on an auto is to swap your td04 for a td05,then swap your 3B for a Z4 ecu(this is me presuming you have a 93 - 96 car), failing that you can do the normal decat,induction kit,etc,but well worth getting it checked out afterwards to make sure it is running ok.Funnily enough I am off to see Bob Rawle
again in 3 weeks time to have an wrx auto remapped with a simtek ecu .
25 May 2012, 10:08 PM
#3
Yes you can,I have done 5 in the last 2 yrs .The most common upgrade on an auto is to swap your td04 for a td05,then swap your 3B for a Z4 ecu(this is me presuming you have a 93 - 96 car), failing that you can do the normal decat,induction kit,etc,but well worth getting it checked out afterwards to make sure it is running ok.
Funnily enough I am off to see Bob Rawle again in 3 weeks time to have an wrx auto remapped with a simtek ecu .
.The most common upgrade on an auto is to swap your td04 for a td05,then swap your 3B for a Z4 ecu(this is me presuming you have a 93 - 96 car), failing that you can do the normal decat,induction kit,etc,but well worth getting it checked out afterwards to make sure it is running ok.Funnily enough I am off to see Bob Rawle
again in 3 weeks time to have an wrx auto remapped with a simtek ecu .Not sure if you can run the SimTek on autobox,just due OE ECU is connected/wired to the TCU and this means ECU and TCU are wired together plus controlling those signals (Torque control signal,Torque control cut signal,Load etc) and you will be occurred unable to downshift,jerkiness etc. if you are want to fit aftermarket ECU,first speak to your mapper and mainly ask people which this run on 4EAT
This means only option which i know is available on Automatic Impreza is ESL,ProEFI and maybe Syvecs(think they done some Supra which run automatic gearbox)
Jura
26 May 2012, 02:32 AM
#5
Not sure if you can run the SimTek on autobox,just due OE ECU is connected/wired to the TCU and this means ECU and TCU are wired together plus controlling those signals (Torque control signal,Torque control cut signal,Load etc) and you will be occurred unable to downshift,jerkiness etc. if you are want to fit aftermarket ECU,first speak to your mapper and mainly ask people which this run on 4EAT
This means only option which i know is available on Automatic Impreza is ESL,ProEFI and maybe Syvecs(think they done some Supra which run automatic gearbox)
Jura
This means only option which i know is available on Automatic Impreza is ESL,ProEFI and maybe Syvecs(think they done some Supra which run automatic gearbox)
Jura
He is already running a V2 sti ecu full decat & blitz induction and the only problem I have encountered is when you switch the ignition on the power light will flash up 16x , then go off. This is merely due to the gearbox ecu not recognising the new unit.
Bob has told me that an auto can be mapped by simtek and it is booked in for the 15th of next month, with the only addition will be a fmic.
Last edited by midnight; 26 May 2012 at 02:34 AM.
Trending Topics
19 July 2012, 01:30 PM
#8
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: South East
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Surely the best turbo for an auto is one that makes boost at or only marginally above the torque converter stall speed? Otherwise, you simply have a car that is horribly slow and unresponsive to drive in most circumstance. Conversely, a ECUTEK'd TD04 car will be responsive and will easily be as quick as any x35d BMW from the lights - and will embarass many a manual WRX caught napping in the wrong gear.
TD04 top end isn't great, but AF hybrid turbos have a stronger top end and are perhaps the best of both worlds.
Other thing to consider is modifying the valvebodies on your 4EAT to give increased line pressure to handle the additional torque. Foresters have been fitted with the 'Direct' 4EAT for a while now, so are better with holding torque, however for old Impreza autos you may need to have the valve bodies modified to hold more than 350ftlbs. The Yanks are keen on modding their autos and there are a few companies that modify valve bodies stateside. Not cheap.
But for heaven's sake, leave the torque converter alone.
TD04 top end isn't great, but AF hybrid turbos have a stronger top end and are perhaps the best of both worlds.
Other thing to consider is modifying the valvebodies on your 4EAT to give increased line pressure to handle the additional torque. Foresters have been fitted with the 'Direct' 4EAT for a while now, so are better with holding torque, however for old Impreza autos you may need to have the valve bodies modified to hold more than 350ftlbs. The Yanks are keen on modding their autos and there are a few companies that modify valve bodies stateside. Not cheap.
But for heaven's sake, leave the torque converter alone.
21 July 2012, 12:57 PM
#9
Someone after my own heart
The following is relevant to the phase 1, 4EAT(R4AX-EL) auto, upto 97/98 - no external ATF filter. Don't forget your running a centre VTD with a 36/64 split. This is not the same as many other countries, inc the USA. They had a different transfer case on the rear of the transmission. Until VTD on some turbo auto's, reappeared there again in '02. And then went away again! (maybe '08?)
4EAT phase 1, VTD version on right.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7241/7...4db791fc_o.jpg
Rather than going to the expense of a complete uprated valve body (ITP, Level 10 etc), there is a valve body kit - Transgo RE4R01A-HD2. This addresses the low line-pressures (and firms up the shifts) that plague the car in 4th gear(overdrive) Not so bad with the WRX auto 4.11 gearing, but a problem with the 3.7(UK) and 3.54 (USA) gearing in the SVX. Driving it in 3rd around town, can alleviate this issue.
Fit a transmission cooler in parallel with the existing cooler in the rad. If you bypass the rad cooler, you may have issues with no top gear in cold weather. Fit an external filter (a fix tried on later SVX's), ideally in a postion where it's in the air flow.
If you do order bits in Britain, say it's for a '96 SVX. That runs the same number of steels and clutches as the turbo box.
There is a rebuild kit available Transtec 23006BF inc. clutches/steels. You should also order the additional 6 forward clutches and 6 forward plates, required for the '96 SVX and turbo spec box.
Or, there are different high-energy construction, steels and clutches, that can be purchased separately, to supplement the Transtec kit.
The OBD1 version (black and green connectors under dash) doesn't talk between the ECU and the TCU - hence the TCU can be chipped and the ECU changed.
3000rpm - 3200rpm is the right stall speed for a daily driver. That's the standard stall speed for a turbo convertor. However, after this length of time the lock-up material in the convertor is probably disintegrating, and blocking channels in the valve body.
16 flashes of the power light, on start up, indicates a stored transmission fault. But not which, of 12 faults, it may be.
Also, renew the duty 'c' solenoid in the transfer case, as a matter of course.
Next time your in a version 1, auto, black cab, think of your Subaru/Jatco auto!
There are also additional mods for the brake band. Addressing the slippage issue due to power and/or low line pressures.
Just depends on the old adage: Speed costs money; how fast do you wanna go.
HTH
The following is relevant to the phase 1, 4EAT(R4AX-EL) auto, upto 97/98 - no external ATF filter. Don't forget your running a centre VTD with a 36/64 split. This is not the same as many other countries, inc the USA. They had a different transfer case on the rear of the transmission. Until VTD on some turbo auto's, reappeared there again in '02. And then went away again! (maybe '08?)
4EAT phase 1, VTD version on right.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7241/7...4db791fc_o.jpg
Rather than going to the expense of a complete uprated valve body (ITP, Level 10 etc), there is a valve body kit - Transgo RE4R01A-HD2. This addresses the low line-pressures (and firms up the shifts) that plague the car in 4th gear(overdrive) Not so bad with the WRX auto 4.11 gearing, but a problem with the 3.7(UK) and 3.54 (USA) gearing in the SVX. Driving it in 3rd around town, can alleviate this issue.
Fit a transmission cooler in parallel with the existing cooler in the rad. If you bypass the rad cooler, you may have issues with no top gear in cold weather. Fit an external filter (a fix tried on later SVX's), ideally in a postion where it's in the air flow.
If you do order bits in Britain, say it's for a '96 SVX. That runs the same number of steels and clutches as the turbo box.
There is a rebuild kit available Transtec 23006BF inc. clutches/steels. You should also order the additional 6 forward clutches and 6 forward plates, required for the '96 SVX and turbo spec box.
Or, there are different high-energy construction, steels and clutches, that can be purchased separately, to supplement the Transtec kit.
The OBD1 version (black and green connectors under dash) doesn't talk between the ECU and the TCU - hence the TCU can be chipped and the ECU changed.
3000rpm - 3200rpm is the right stall speed for a daily driver. That's the standard stall speed for a turbo convertor. However, after this length of time the lock-up material in the convertor is probably disintegrating, and blocking channels in the valve body.
16 flashes of the power light, on start up, indicates a stored transmission fault. But not which, of 12 faults, it may be.
Also, renew the duty 'c' solenoid in the transfer case, as a matter of course.
Next time your in a version 1, auto, black cab, think of your Subaru/Jatco auto!
There are also additional mods for the brake band. Addressing the slippage issue due to power and/or low line pressures.
Just depends on the old adage: Speed costs money; how fast do you wanna go.
HTH
Last edited by 2pot; 21 July 2012 at 08:03 PM.
22 July 2012, 01:09 PM
#10
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: South East
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Some very useful detail. IPT (import Performance Transmissons) in the US do a good valvebody modification for about 500 quid, delivering increased line pressure and pleasently firm shifts.
I think you perhaps meant 2200rpm as the stal speed for the OEM Subaru torque converter..? 3200rpm would be a very high stall converter putting the car on boost on pull away, and although a great launching tool it would make, it would live on revs and be very loose.
I think you perhaps meant 2200rpm as the stal speed for the OEM Subaru torque converter..? 3200rpm would be a very high stall converter putting the car on boost on pull away, and although a great launching tool it would make, it would live on revs and be very loose.
22 July 2012, 01:36 PM
#11
On stock convertors:
Non-turbo stall is 2350 - 2750
Turbo stall speed can range 2650 - 3300
A torque convertor is like a clutch. Fully off the clutch pedal, is equivalent to the stall speed on a torque convertor. But like a clutch, that's still partly depressed, a torque convertor will still give forward movement, before the stall speed is reached.
£150 for the Transgo full kit.
Transgo also do a more basic uprate kit: SK RE4R01A
Non-turbo stall is 2350 - 2750
Turbo stall speed can range 2650 - 3300
A torque convertor is like a clutch. Fully off the clutch pedal, is equivalent to the stall speed on a torque convertor. But like a clutch, that's still partly depressed, a torque convertor will still give forward movement, before the stall speed is reached.
£150 for the Transgo full kit.
Transgo also do a more basic uprate kit: SK RE4R01A
Last edited by 2pot; 22 July 2012 at 05:19 PM.
22 July 2012, 03:33 PM
#12
For max acceleration the stall speed should match the rpm at max torque, of your particular set up.
For a turbo daily driver, the stall speed should be the point a which the turbo begins to make boost. As the turbo increases boost, the the stall speed increases, may be by 400-600rpm. So, on a turbo, it depends if your considering stall speed on or off boost.
Between those two points is a daily driver or drag car - you choose the principle focus of your car.
After that torque convertor design variables are way too complex for me.
Last edited by 2pot; 22 July 2012 at 03:52 PM.
22 July 2012, 04:05 PM
#13
IPT is good,but you can do similar for lot less,somewhere is guide how to do
If you want really top 4EAT,I would speak to Tony Rigoli
http://www.tonyrigoliperformance.com.au/
Those boxes are proven in drag racing etc.,not sure if I can say this about the IPT and other US companies
Second thing which will be maybe better is JDM 4EAT with Sport Shift(Tiptronic) and with this box has been just pleasure to drive,we are run this with Works Bell paddle shifter and in many ways has been as sequential box(not that fast as sequential,but still OK for drag racing or track days etc.)
Great to see,older 4EAT can work with aftermarket ECU,newer 4EAT wouldn't work,but i'm sure with Syvecs is possible to run too newer 4EAT,when Syvecs can run Supra Automatic
Jura
If you want really top 4EAT,I would speak to Tony Rigoli
http://www.tonyrigoliperformance.com.au/
Those boxes are proven in drag racing etc.,not sure if I can say this about the IPT and other US companies
Second thing which will be maybe better is JDM 4EAT with Sport Shift(Tiptronic) and with this box has been just pleasure to drive,we are run this with Works Bell paddle shifter and in many ways has been as sequential box(not that fast as sequential,but still OK for drag racing or track days etc.)
Great to see,older 4EAT can work with aftermarket ECU,newer 4EAT wouldn't work,but i'm sure with Syvecs is possible to run too newer 4EAT,when Syvecs can run Supra Automatic
Jura
22 July 2012, 05:50 PM
#14
Hello Jura
I've read many of your posts, here and on US sites, always helpful. Particularly the info on your experience with auto's, even though mine is an earlier version.
My car simply isn't hard core enough for a Rigoli transmission.
There appears to be much 'mystery' to the uprating of the 4eat. So I became interested, as to what could be done, without resorting to billet parts, and complete auto/manual valve bodies.
I think I've pretty much gone as far as I can.
Except for the transfer section of the box. The VTD version may prove to be the weak link. Less clutch packs and steels, than the other version(see earlier link), but a more intelligent system for road use. At what bhp it fails remains to be investigated.
I've read many of your posts, here and on US sites, always helpful. Particularly the info on your experience with auto's, even though mine is an earlier version.
My car simply isn't hard core enough for a Rigoli transmission.
There appears to be much 'mystery' to the uprating of the 4eat. So I became interested, as to what could be done, without resorting to billet parts, and complete auto/manual valve bodies.
I think I've pretty much gone as far as I can.
Except for the transfer section of the box. The VTD version may prove to be the weak link. Less clutch packs and steels, than the other version(see earlier link), but a more intelligent system for road use. At what bhp it fails remains to be investigated.
22 July 2012, 07:01 PM
#15
Hello Jura
I've read many of your posts, here and on US sites, always helpful. Particularly the info on your experience with auto's, even though mine is an earlier version.
My car simply isn't hard core enough for a Rigoli transmission.
There appears to be much 'mystery' to the uprating of the 4eat. So I became interested, as to what could be done, without resorting to billet parts, and complete auto/manual valve bodies.
I think I've pretty much gone as far as I can.
Except for the transfer section of the box. The VTD version may prove to be the weak link. Less clutch packs and steels, than the other version(see earlier link), but a more intelligent system for road use. At what bhp it fails remains to be investigated.
I've read many of your posts, here and on US sites, always helpful. Particularly the info on your experience with auto's, even though mine is an earlier version.
My car simply isn't hard core enough for a Rigoli transmission.
There appears to be much 'mystery' to the uprating of the 4eat. So I became interested, as to what could be done, without resorting to billet parts, and complete auto/manual valve bodies.
I think I've pretty much gone as far as I can.
Except for the transfer section of the box. The VTD version may prove to be the weak link. Less clutch packs and steels, than the other version(see earlier link), but a more intelligent system for road use. At what bhp it fails remains to be investigated.
We are run our 4EAT at around 350bhp without the problems,how much bhp will hold the 4EAT,this is the question,I've seen few of them running high 400bhp,but I've seen again some broken under 350bhp
Usually 4EAT killing the heat,due this would buy Oil cooler which is relative cheap mod and can prolong the life of the 4EAT...
Agreed newer 4EAT are not the strongest or stronger than "older" 4EAT,but with right mods can run high bhp...
Few months ago I asked Red Victor and Penn Autos/Andy Frost about the rebuild 4EAT i've get quote around 5-7k for rebuild gearbox and which hold 500bhp,if I would go with race 4EAT I would go with Tony Rigoli 4EAT,expensive but proven and is the best at moment.
About the your car isn't hardcore enough,never say never
Somewhere is there guide how to mod the valve body.
TCU is still not cracked yet and many people tried to do reverse engineering,but at moment is still not cracked yet,which is shame,this will allow you better shifting in auto mode(D) and other gears etc.
Jura
22 July 2012, 07:34 PM
#17
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: South East
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If we understand the stall speed to be the rpm at which the car begins to launch, it is approx 2200rpm on JDM E4AT. I have owned two, and I have driven one today. Torque braking will allow a higher stall speed but this definition of stall speed is not widely used anymore as differing brake set-ups between identical cars would produce different stall speeds for the same torque converter. IPT etc and most other autobox engineers use the former definition.
There is a lot you can do with building a bulletproof autobox however I think that in reality, its best just to intelligently tune the car to a 350ftlbs limit with as much torque available as early as possible. Torque kills gearboxes not power. I would say that a healthy top end is entirely within a standard E4AT's capability, if it is delivered higher up the rev range and with mechanically sympathetic driving.
Once you have driven a DSG car or higher end dual clutch cars, you have to accept that the E4AT will always be slushbox, but a tough, reliable, and extremely fun slushbox.
I run 340 ftlbs through mine at the moment, no oil cooler, standard valvebodies, E4AT Direct gearbox (SH Forester XT 2009).
In 70% of road conditions, it is faster than my 430bhp 2.1 CDB SC42 car, and I'm satisfied with this level of response and performance for a daily driver.
I had IPT valve bodies on my weekend car previously and was very happy with the driving feel. It held 330/330 without issue. I conducted an auto to 6-speed manual swap on that particular car to give the car the best set-up for 400/430+ spec. Rather than fit a sequential box or drag set-up which loses the silky smooth feel of 4EAT, I found the hassle and expense of the 6MT to be the most sensible option.
During my Subaru ownership I have owned an Audi TT 3.2 DSG and driven the Nissan GTR extensively, and have come to very much respect the smoothness and robustness of E4AT, whilst also understanding its limits.
My Forester XT autobox also has SI-Drive which changes the map as well as the behaviour of the TCU, allowing TC lock-up in 2nd, 3rd, and 4th in 'Intelligent' mode, torwuey in gear performance in 'Sports' mode, and ultra sharp response in 'Sport sharp' mode, so I can vouch for the effectiveness of the evolutionary changes that Subaru has made to this tried and tested platform.
There is a lot you can do with building a bulletproof autobox however I think that in reality, its best just to intelligently tune the car to a 350ftlbs limit with as much torque available as early as possible. Torque kills gearboxes not power. I would say that a healthy top end is entirely within a standard E4AT's capability, if it is delivered higher up the rev range and with mechanically sympathetic driving.
Once you have driven a DSG car or higher end dual clutch cars, you have to accept that the E4AT will always be slushbox, but a tough, reliable, and extremely fun slushbox.
I run 340 ftlbs through mine at the moment, no oil cooler, standard valvebodies, E4AT Direct gearbox (SH Forester XT 2009).
In 70% of road conditions, it is faster than my 430bhp 2.1 CDB SC42 car, and I'm satisfied with this level of response and performance for a daily driver.
I had IPT valve bodies on my weekend car previously and was very happy with the driving feel. It held 330/330 without issue. I conducted an auto to 6-speed manual swap on that particular car to give the car the best set-up for 400/430+ spec. Rather than fit a sequential box or drag set-up which loses the silky smooth feel of 4EAT, I found the hassle and expense of the 6MT to be the most sensible option.
During my Subaru ownership I have owned an Audi TT 3.2 DSG and driven the Nissan GTR extensively, and have come to very much respect the smoothness and robustness of E4AT, whilst also understanding its limits.
My Forester XT autobox also has SI-Drive which changes the map as well as the behaviour of the TCU, allowing TC lock-up in 2nd, 3rd, and 4th in 'Intelligent' mode, torwuey in gear performance in 'Sports' mode, and ultra sharp response in 'Sport sharp' mode, so I can vouch for the effectiveness of the evolutionary changes that Subaru has made to this tried and tested platform.
Last edited by rexguy; 22 July 2012 at 07:39 PM.
22 July 2012, 08:21 PM
#19
If we understand the stall speed to be the rpm at which the car begins to launch, it is approx 2200rpm on JDM E4AT. I have owned two, and I have driven one today. Torque braking will allow a higher stall speed but this definition of stall speed is not widely used anymore as differing brake set-ups between identical cars would produce different stall speeds for the same torque converter. IPT etc and most other autobox engineers use the former definition.
There is a lot you can do with building a bulletproof autobox however I think that in reality, its best just to intelligently tune the car to a 350ftlbs limit with as much torque available as early as possible. Torque kills gearboxes not power. I would say that a healthy top end is entirely within a standard E4AT's capability, if it is delivered higher up the rev range and with mechanically sympathetic driving.
Once you have driven a DSG car or higher end dual clutch cars, you have to accept that the E4AT will always be slushbox, but a tough, reliable, and extremely fun slushbox.
I run 340 ftlbs through mine at the moment, no oil cooler, standard valvebodies, E4AT Direct gearbox (SH Forester XT 2009).
In 70% of road conditions, it is faster than my 430bhp 2.1 CDB SC42 car, and I'm satisfied with this level of response and performance for a daily driver.
I had IPT valve bodies on my weekend car previously and was very happy with the driving feel. It held 330/330 without issue. I conducted an auto to 6-speed manual swap on that particular car to give the car the best set-up for 400/430+ spec. Rather than fit a sequential box or drag set-up which loses the silky smooth feel of 4EAT, I found the hassle and expense of the 6MT to be the most sensible option.
During my Subaru ownership I have owned an Audi TT 3.2 DSG and driven the Nissan GTR extensively, and have come to very much respect the smoothness and robustness of E4AT, whilst also understanding its limits.
My Forester XT autobox also has SI-Drive which changes the map as well as the behaviour of the TCU, allowing TC lock-up in 2nd, 3rd, and 4th in 'Intelligent' mode, torwuey in gear performance in 'Sports' mode, and ultra sharp response in 'Sport sharp' mode, so I can vouch for the effectiveness of the evolutionary changes that Subaru has made to this tried and tested platform.
There is a lot you can do with building a bulletproof autobox however I think that in reality, its best just to intelligently tune the car to a 350ftlbs limit with as much torque available as early as possible. Torque kills gearboxes not power. I would say that a healthy top end is entirely within a standard E4AT's capability, if it is delivered higher up the rev range and with mechanically sympathetic driving.
Once you have driven a DSG car or higher end dual clutch cars, you have to accept that the E4AT will always be slushbox, but a tough, reliable, and extremely fun slushbox.
I run 340 ftlbs through mine at the moment, no oil cooler, standard valvebodies, E4AT Direct gearbox (SH Forester XT 2009).
In 70% of road conditions, it is faster than my 430bhp 2.1 CDB SC42 car, and I'm satisfied with this level of response and performance for a daily driver.
I had IPT valve bodies on my weekend car previously and was very happy with the driving feel. It held 330/330 without issue. I conducted an auto to 6-speed manual swap on that particular car to give the car the best set-up for 400/430+ spec. Rather than fit a sequential box or drag set-up which loses the silky smooth feel of 4EAT, I found the hassle and expense of the 6MT to be the most sensible option.
During my Subaru ownership I have owned an Audi TT 3.2 DSG and driven the Nissan GTR extensively, and have come to very much respect the smoothness and robustness of E4AT, whilst also understanding its limits.
My Forester XT autobox also has SI-Drive which changes the map as well as the behaviour of the TCU, allowing TC lock-up in 2nd, 3rd, and 4th in 'Intelligent' mode, torwuey in gear performance in 'Sports' mode, and ultra sharp response in 'Sport sharp' mode, so I can vouch for the effectiveness of the evolutionary changes that Subaru has made to this tried and tested platform.
Why are you quoting the specs of a completely different transmission, to the one being discussed?
22 July 2012, 08:25 PM
#20
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: South East
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Disappointed by your tone, 2pot.
The stall speed is not effected by the granduer of the TCU. If we can all use the same definitions, it will help others wanting information later on.
The stall speed is not effected by the granduer of the TCU. If we can all use the same definitions, it will help others wanting information later on.
22 July 2012, 10:45 PM
#21
At this level you will need little bit more than oil cooler,valve body upgrade will be perfect.
About the cracked TCU code,you are probably mean SVX TCU code is cracked,New age TCU code is still not cracked,but Cobb tried to crack(reverse engineering) the TCU,but what I know they,abandon this in early stage,due time and effort which will need
Jura
If we understand the stall speed to be the rpm at which the car begins to launch, it is approx 2200rpm on JDM E4AT. I have owned two, and I have driven one today. Torque braking will allow a higher stall speed but this definition of stall speed is not widely used anymore as differing brake set-ups between identical cars would produce different stall speeds for the same torque converter. IPT etc and most other autobox engineers use the former definition.
There is a lot you can do with building a bulletproof autobox however I think that in reality, its best just to intelligently tune the car to a 350ftlbs limit with as much torque available as early as possible. Torque kills gearboxes not power. I would say that a healthy top end is entirely within a standard E4AT's capability, if it is delivered higher up the rev range and with mechanically sympathetic driving.
Once you have driven a DSG car or higher end dual clutch cars, you have to accept that the E4AT will always be slushbox, but a tough, reliable, and extremely fun slushbox.
I run 340 ftlbs through mine at the moment, no oil cooler, standard valvebodies, E4AT Direct gearbox (SH Forester XT 2009).
In 70% of road conditions, it is faster than my 430bhp 2.1 CDB SC42 car, and I'm satisfied with this level of response and performance for a daily driver.
I had IPT valve bodies on my weekend car previously and was very happy with the driving feel. It held 330/330 without issue. I conducted an auto to 6-speed manual swap on that particular car to give the car the best set-up for 400/430+ spec. Rather than fit a sequential box or drag set-up which loses the silky smooth feel of 4EAT, I found the hassle and expense of the 6MT to be the most sensible option.
During my Subaru ownership I have owned an Audi TT 3.2 DSG and driven the Nissan GTR extensively, and have come to very much respect the smoothness and robustness of E4AT, whilst also understanding its limits.
My Forester XT autobox also has SI-Drive which changes the map as well as the behaviour of the TCU, allowing TC lock-up in 2nd, 3rd, and 4th in 'Intelligent' mode, torwuey in gear performance in 'Sports' mode, and ultra sharp response in 'Sport sharp' mode, so I can vouch for the effectiveness of the evolutionary changes that Subaru has made to this tried and tested platform.
There is a lot you can do with building a bulletproof autobox however I think that in reality, its best just to intelligently tune the car to a 350ftlbs limit with as much torque available as early as possible. Torque kills gearboxes not power. I would say that a healthy top end is entirely within a standard E4AT's capability, if it is delivered higher up the rev range and with mechanically sympathetic driving.
Once you have driven a DSG car or higher end dual clutch cars, you have to accept that the E4AT will always be slushbox, but a tough, reliable, and extremely fun slushbox.
I run 340 ftlbs through mine at the moment, no oil cooler, standard valvebodies, E4AT Direct gearbox (SH Forester XT 2009).
In 70% of road conditions, it is faster than my 430bhp 2.1 CDB SC42 car, and I'm satisfied with this level of response and performance for a daily driver.
I had IPT valve bodies on my weekend car previously and was very happy with the driving feel. It held 330/330 without issue. I conducted an auto to 6-speed manual swap on that particular car to give the car the best set-up for 400/430+ spec. Rather than fit a sequential box or drag set-up which loses the silky smooth feel of 4EAT, I found the hassle and expense of the 6MT to be the most sensible option.
During my Subaru ownership I have owned an Audi TT 3.2 DSG and driven the Nissan GTR extensively, and have come to very much respect the smoothness and robustness of E4AT, whilst also understanding its limits.
My Forester XT autobox also has SI-Drive which changes the map as well as the behaviour of the TCU, allowing TC lock-up in 2nd, 3rd, and 4th in 'Intelligent' mode, torwuey in gear performance in 'Sports' mode, and ultra sharp response in 'Sport sharp' mode, so I can vouch for the effectiveness of the evolutionary changes that Subaru has made to this tried and tested platform.
4EAT/5EAT are good boxes,agreed they will need upgrade and if they're upgraded will last.
We are run our 4EAT at 350bhp,when we are started our project we are want good 4EAT and really after quotes which we are get,we are went with 5speed PPG
About the Sequential box,we're almost bought from my friend KAPS 6speed sequential box(5k EUR),but he sold before we're decided to go with this.
Can't comment on the Forester box,but probably best 4EAT which we're drove has been JDM 4EAT with Sport shift and Works Bell paddle shifter
Jura
We are running now MDX321T from Lateral Performance and car is now used only as weekend/track day/drag car.
We are used before the wagon daily(with 4EAT,great to town or to the traffic),but now with PPG and Exedy Twin plate would say,we wouldn't try go to the London in biggest traffic
Jura
23 July 2012, 01:13 AM
#22
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: South East
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jura, very interesting. Do you mean that you have converted your car to manual and fitted 321T and that it is no longer automatic?
Regarding DSG, I disagree that E4AT is not comparable to a torque converter based gearbox. Both have a 'D' mode, so they are both viewed as automatics by uninformed Joe Public.
The fact is, VAG spent millions on RnD trying to make their DSG box feel like a torque converter autobox as they had comfort issues around town with early implementations. Poorly maintained GTRs suffer similar issues. Comfort is a key strength of E4AT, and any modification that detracts from that is a bad one, in my view. Let it be what it is - a really strong and well engineered slushbox.
You probably right about the best E4AT being a JDM model. The JDM models are always best as they keep the best for the home market!
Regarding DSG, I disagree that E4AT is not comparable to a torque converter based gearbox. Both have a 'D' mode, so they are both viewed as automatics by uninformed Joe Public.
The fact is, VAG spent millions on RnD trying to make their DSG box feel like a torque converter autobox as they had comfort issues around town with early implementations. Poorly maintained GTRs suffer similar issues. Comfort is a key strength of E4AT, and any modification that detracts from that is a bad one, in my view. Let it be what it is - a really strong and well engineered slushbox.
You probably right about the best E4AT being a JDM model. The JDM models are always best as they keep the best for the home market!
Last edited by rexguy; 23 July 2012 at 01:14 AM.
23 July 2012, 01:43 AM
#23
Jura, very interesting. Do you mean that you have converted your car to manual and fitted 321T and that it is no longer automatic?
Regarding DSG, I disagree that E4AT is not comparable to a torque converter based gearbox. Both have a 'D' mode, so they are both viewed as automatics by uninformed Joe Public.
The fact is, VAG spent millions on RnD trying to make their DSG box feel like a torque converter autobox as they had comfort issues around town with early implementations. Poorly maintained GTRs suffer similar issues. Comfort is a key strength of E4AT, and any modification that detracts from that is a bad one, in my view. Let it be what it is - a really strong and well engineered slushbox.
You probably right about the best E4AT being a JDM model. The JDM models are always best as they keep the best for the home market!
Regarding DSG, I disagree that E4AT is not comparable to a torque converter based gearbox. Both have a 'D' mode, so they are both viewed as automatics by uninformed Joe Public.
The fact is, VAG spent millions on RnD trying to make their DSG box feel like a torque converter autobox as they had comfort issues around town with early implementations. Poorly maintained GTRs suffer similar issues. Comfort is a key strength of E4AT, and any modification that detracts from that is a bad one, in my view. Let it be what it is - a really strong and well engineered slushbox.
You probably right about the best E4AT being a JDM model. The JDM models are always best as they keep the best for the home market!
Hi there
Sadly yes is no longer 4EAT,when we are decided go with 2.1L and bigger power,I've contacted few companies here and elsewhere,but quotes which we are get has been ridiculous and simplest thing has been swap for PPG,which in the end has been lots of headache
IPT has been option,but after doing some research on some forums,I've found IPT failure rate is little bit high and we are decided go with manual gearbox PPG
Agreed both have "D" mode,but DSG is not available on the Subaru,yes is available on the EVO X,but still lots of people have problems with them,due this i'm not convinced with them
If you could try Legacy/Impreza with the Sport shift and you will be surprised how it feels and you can shift(up and down) when you are want and no when 4EAT wants.
Really if I would buy Impreza(or Legacy) with 4EAT,my choice will be 4EAT with Sport Shift(Tiptronic)
Jura
23 July 2012, 02:06 AM
#24
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: South East
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Built gearboxes from a shop thousands of miles away is a risk too great to take. The manual swap was the best idea for the 400bhp+ level - it seems we both came to the same conclusion.
I agree that double clutch gearboxes seem to have double the issues. Simple is best.
I had a Legacy with VTD Sportshift and my Forester is also a Sportshift. I didn't use Sportshift much on the Legacy as the TCU was intelligent enough to make it near redundant.
As you know, Sportshift VTD-AWD uses G-sensors and yaw sensors to understand what the driving conditions at any given time are. This would allow the TCU to down shift and use engine braking into bends when sensors have indicated high g-readings in succession (essentially a mountain pass mode) and downshifting when yaw sensors indicate downhill travel when the brake pedal is depressed for more than three seconds.
Just two examples. Sportshift is fun at the circuit, though.
I know you love your autos so you must be missing the old auto set-up at times. Why not buy a Legacy B4 RSK as a daily driver and keep the wagon as a focused weekend/track tool?
I agree that double clutch gearboxes seem to have double the issues. Simple is best.
I had a Legacy with VTD Sportshift and my Forester is also a Sportshift. I didn't use Sportshift much on the Legacy as the TCU was intelligent enough to make it near redundant.
As you know, Sportshift VTD-AWD uses G-sensors and yaw sensors to understand what the driving conditions at any given time are. This would allow the TCU to down shift and use engine braking into bends when sensors have indicated high g-readings in succession (essentially a mountain pass mode) and downshifting when yaw sensors indicate downhill travel when the brake pedal is depressed for more than three seconds.
Just two examples. Sportshift is fun at the circuit, though.
I know you love your autos so you must be missing the old auto set-up at times. Why not buy a Legacy B4 RSK as a daily driver and keep the wagon as a focused weekend/track tool?
Last edited by rexguy; 23 July 2012 at 11:21 AM.
23 July 2012, 09:28 AM
#25
Would Jura have stayed auto, if he could have sourced a road useable auto, capable of holding 500-1000bhp - at a sensible cost?
I'd be really interested, if people would chip in and suggest what's a sensible cost? In relation to power holding capability.
I certainly wouldn't describe it as merely a slush box.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=tIqWZplEs5g
Or, a different form of motorsport - same box
Last edited by 2pot; 23 July 2012 at 10:54 AM.
23 July 2012, 12:54 PM
#26
Built gearboxes from a shop thousands of miles away is a risk too great to take. The manual swap was the best idea for the 400bhp+ level - it seems we both came to the same conclusion.
I agree that double clutch gearboxes seem to have double the issues. Simple is best.
I had a Legacy with VTD Sportshift and my Forester is also a Sportshift. I didn't use Sportshift much on the Legacy as the TCU was intelligent enough to make it near redundant.
As you know, Sportshift VTD-AWD uses G-sensors and yaw sensors to understand what the driving conditions at any given time are. This would allow the TCU to down shift and use engine braking into bends when sensors have indicated high g-readings in succession (essentially a mountain pass mode) and downshifting when yaw sensors indicate downhill travel when the brake pedal is depressed for more than three seconds.
Just two examples. Sportshift is fun at the circuit, though.
I know you love your autos so you must be missing the old auto set-up at times. Why not buy a Legacy B4 RSK as a daily driver and keep the wagon as a focused weekend/track tool?
I agree that double clutch gearboxes seem to have double the issues. Simple is best.
I had a Legacy with VTD Sportshift and my Forester is also a Sportshift. I didn't use Sportshift much on the Legacy as the TCU was intelligent enough to make it near redundant.
As you know, Sportshift VTD-AWD uses G-sensors and yaw sensors to understand what the driving conditions at any given time are. This would allow the TCU to down shift and use engine braking into bends when sensors have indicated high g-readings in succession (essentially a mountain pass mode) and downshifting when yaw sensors indicate downhill travel when the brake pedal is depressed for more than three seconds.
Just two examples. Sportshift is fun at the circuit, though.
I know you love your autos so you must be missing the old auto set-up at times. Why not buy a Legacy B4 RSK as a daily driver and keep the wagon as a focused weekend/track tool?
And on this TCU has been really not the best,shifting too early to gears and really we are hate "D" mode,in Tiptronic mode we are love it 4EAT,in typical "D" we are used only in traffic or town driving
About the missing 4EAT,yes sometimes,when we are travel and we are hit traffic or drag.4EAT has been great in every situation.
We are thinking about the Legacy B4 4EAT model,maybe later on,but right now,we have our wagon
Jura
Now that's relevant
Would Jura have stayed auto, if he could have sourced a road useable auto, capable of holding 500-1000bhp - at a sensible cost?
I'd be really interested, if people would chip in and suggest what's a sensible cost? In relation to power holding capability.
I certainly wouldn't describe it as merely a slush box.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpAW0SjRjb4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=tIqWZplEs5g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-9tPf5o4OA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7HetSgoJkE
Or, a different form of motorsport - same box
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Re7JrOc2gCo
Would Jura have stayed auto, if he could have sourced a road useable auto, capable of holding 500-1000bhp - at a sensible cost?
I'd be really interested, if people would chip in and suggest what's a sensible cost? In relation to power holding capability.
I certainly wouldn't describe it as merely a slush box.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpAW0SjRjb4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=tIqWZplEs5g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-9tPf5o4OA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7HetSgoJkE
Or, a different form of motorsport - same box
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Re7JrOc2gCo
I would stayed with 4EAT,but if you are looking now price for 6speed is around £1600 and PPG around £2k,those boxes will hold the 500bhp all day long and with some build 4EAT you will never have confidence will hold the 500bhp and heavy abuse on the track or drag,if yes will hold the abuse price for those will be little bit expensive against the PPG or 6speed
Tony Rigoli is legend and really his 4EAT are best on the market
Sensible cost of the 4EAT,which last 500bhp will be somewhere at around the £3k,but still think if you want be sure box will hold this power,would say PPG or 6speed is safe option
All depends for what car will be used and build
Jura
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
