Guest

iTrader: (2)

Did my first track day in my 1997 UK Turbo 2000 yesterday, standard except for HKS induction, HKS SSQV bov, full 3" turbo back decat and later four pot front brakes with drilled and grooved discs and OEM pads. Had a few questions about the car's performance during the day.

I woefully underestimated how much fuel I'd get through, worked it out at just over 200 miles on track at 10-11 mpg got me through two full tankfuls, or £140 quid! Is this to be expected regularly or does it vary with circuit configuration etc? I was pushing the car hard to make up for cheap chinese tyres and poor brakes, I was going quite quick and got quite a lot of track time in compared to some others there so is this maybe the reason?

Also, about a second or so after coming out of various corners, on the straights the engine occasionally cut out completely then jumped back in again, enough to make me nearly headbutt the wheel! A few others in the paddock reckoned I might be getting fuel surge, however this seemed to happen regardless of the level in the tank? Car's had replacement used coil sourced and fitted with new plugs and leads by a local Subaru specialist before I bought it, about 4 months ago.

I put brand new OEM spec Mintex pads on ready for today, and I'd worn the nearside set down to the metal by just after lunch, with the o/s not far behind. They were cheap pads but even so I'm a bit surprised, will a set of Aztecs Kevlar ones for example be able to last a full day? I was lucky somebody there had a half used set I bought for a tenner otherwise my day would've been over quickly!

Finally, when out for the first few laps everything was running fine, but after I'd done 5-6 goes round I started to get really bad brake fade coupled with a tremendous shaking/vibration through the steering wheel. The brake fade I expected but the shaking almost felt like the discs were severely warped, yet when I let them cool down they feel fine again for another 5-6 laps. Any other ideas what this might be?

Sorry for all the questions and as I'm asking all sorts I thought the general thread would be the best place! Also need to mention it was an awesome day, really good fun and I think I'm hooked, would've loved to see what the car could do with some sticker rubber! I've worn the cheap tyres I had on completely bald and they've got big chunks missing out of them, so my new Toyo T1rs should be better if they're kept at the right pressures!

I'll get a few pictures up later on, didn't get many I was too busy driving!

bonesetter

iTrader: (9)

Where was the TD?

Morzy

iTrader: (1)

The severe wobble could be a sticky calliper mate, I had exactly the same thing, and as soon as it was cool the brakes were back to normal - worth checking when you out some more pads on.

Steve777

iTrader: (8)

and its sounds like you were boiling your brake fluid

Guest

iTrader: (2)

It was the full go circuit at Anglesey! And I cleaned and freed up all the pistons in the front calipers so they're all moving freely, as are the pads on the sliders. Unless the pads were expanding and jamming in the sliders possibly?

I was hoping that if I get a set of Kevlar pads and braided hoses for the front, and look at a 2 pot conversion for the rear with 290 discs and new fluid.

As for the fluid, any suggestions for what I should use? I used new halfirds dot 4 fluid which obviously wasn't up to scratch, have seen dot 5 and 5.1 racing fluid for sale, would this stuff be compatible with all the seals etc in my car? Reservoir cap states dot 3 I think!

JonnyA

iTrader: (1)

If you don't get single digit mpg at a track day, you are not trying.

JonMc

iTrader: (51)

Reservoir cap states the minimum - dot 5.1 will be fine, I use that in my car all of the time

Turbotits

iTrader: (2)

The fuel usage is pretty normal. Mine eats through fuel on track. Ive had it as low as 6 or 7 mpg. Was it cutting out on right hand corners only? Does sound like fuel surge. If your pushing hard enough anything below half a tank and you can get it. Its pitta because of weight. I always keep mine higher than 3/4 of a tank when on track.

AbbasSTI

iTrader: (37)

The head butting the wheel sounds like fuel cut due to over boost. Definitely worth getting it checked over by a mapper IMO........

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

How often were you coming in and how many laps were you doing per session?
Brake fade, as said, fluid, I would also replace your discs, drilled have a nasty tendancy to crack and break under high temps and are not recommended for track use, stick with grooved or dimpled.
Cheap brake pads wont help things, you will need good quality discs and pads if you are track daying it, it puts the cost up but you are able to stop better
Tyres... like anything, a road tyre (especially a budget or mid range one, even some of the more expensive ones) are not good on the track, they become too hot and you lose grip, you will find your toyo's will do this so its best to get a track tyre rather than a road tyre or decrease the time you are out on track so your tyres dont "go off".
Oil change... recommended before and after a track day.
Fluid changes, also recommended if they are near to be done or if you are pushing the car hard.
2 pot rear conversion, not worth it, spend the money on upgrading the fronts with something better than the subaru 4 pots.
Gauges... you really need some fitted to your car, egt, oil temp, boost, water etc, id be looking at the oil temp and boost minimum, also you need to keep your fuel tank atleast half full to stop yourself getting fuel surge, if this happens you may also get det which isnt good for your car so look for a KS3 or the likes.

Tony

JohnD

iTrader: (5)

As above, at least oil pressure and oil temperature gauges. If you were staying on track for long periods, it's pretty certain your oil was getting close to it's safe temp. limit.
There's a good chance your discs were distorting at the high temps. they were reaching then feeling ok again as they cooled.
On track, you find out things about your car you didn't know!

JohnD

carl heath

Isnt there something you can do to stop fuel surge in petrol tank ?

IainMilford

iTrader: (15)

I did 100 miles around silverstone and used 1 and a half tanks of fuel

Galifrey

iTrader: (3)

Baffle it (expensive), Fill with Foam (marginal improvement, needs a new fuel level sender) or add a swirl pot and extra fuel pump (expensive but best by far).

bonesetter

iTrader: (9)

Angelsey is a very tough circuit for a relatively track heavyweight Scooby. ~115mph into 20mph turn and then more heavy braking through to the start/finish and all over again is very heavy on brakes, and tyres for that matter

Have to say my JDM's weight made the car feel quite handicapped there. The drive (from the Midlands) back seemed to free up the car

Here it is in action there (the classic was going very well)



I used 4 tank fulls on those two days, along with a set of pads, and a set of tyres. Very pricey. My brake pedal was going to the floor (fluid)

I bought one of these after seeing the way they annihilate the heavier cars there

Guest

iTrader: (2)

Thanks for all the advice guys, I'm amazed at how naive I was prior to all this, I actually thought track days would be a relatively cheap foray into motorsport, how wrong I was! So far I seem to have completely the wrong brakes, tyres, suspension and fuel system, and that's not to mention the fact I'd like more straight line speed on top!

As I said I was spending longer out on track than others, I'm guessing 10-15 laps each session with maybe a 15-20 minute break inbetween, longer if I needed the toilet or the car needed tweaking/repairs! Guessing my problems were all sub standard parts and fluids coupled with pushing too hard for too long! I didn't spend much on my current four pots, although the discs are brand new so I might consider selling them on as a complete set with some new pads and looking out for a full set of STI Brembos all round. I didn't want to spend £500 on four calipers or whatever it is they go for but after seeing how the current four pots have performed I can see why everyone says the Brembos are the bare minimum you'd need for the track!

Hopefully a set of those with decent discs, pads and new 5.1 fluid should at least make the brakes a lot more useable. As for the cutting out I'll make sure to fit oil and boost gauges for the next one so I can keep an eye on what's going on, and think I'll get an uprated pump as well.

It'll be a shame if Anglesey is also just an expensive circuit for a heavy 4wd car, as it's only about 20 minutes drive from my house! Short of getting a light nimble car for track use not sure what else I could do! Annoying as I got rid of my Saxo VTS with Brembo calipers for the scooby

IainMilford

iTrader: (15)

i would start with decent pads, discs and fluid and braided brake lines, that will make a massive difference to your brakes and you may not need to go to brembos, a lot of people i know have had brake fade with brembo's but that may have just been down to their pad and disc combination.

Guest

iTrader: (2)

In that case I might upgrade the rear brakes to two pots, brembo or normal, and change the fluid and hoses as that will all need doing regardless, then get some better quality pads for the front and see how it does at the next meeting! That way if its acceptable im done, but if not I just need to change the front brakes! Will make my current 4 pots easier to sell with pads in as well.

JohnD

iTrader: (5)

By all means do the upgrades you suggest but remember, you don't need fancy tyres enormous brakes and stiff suspension to enjoy being on track.
My son Chris, his G/F and myself did a t'day at Bedford Autodrome a couple of years back. On the day it was raining first thing so Chris decided not to take his EVO IX (Get it wet - you're joking!) so he went in his Focus 1.6! He reckons he had a really great day with less pressure and nothing to prove. I was behind him on some twisty bits and he was cornering as quickly as me in my STi Of course, you need to be wary of faster stuff but the fun element is there in bucket-loads! (and less scared of bending it!)

JohnD

Guest

iTrader: (2)

Good point and well made, but it's frustrating when your track time is cut short due to the brakes giving out early, you can't hit your lines as quick as you'd like because the tyres slide everywhere, and despite the above you can stay with the Evos and M3s through the bends but get left behind on the straights! All in all it's addictive and I'm looking forward to sorting the car out the best I can with my budget to get it performing better!

Not been able to find many good pictures of the day, only one I've got of me is in a straight line





The guys I was with, my car in it's customary position as everything was getting rather warm:





And Anglesey's current garage setup, new buildings are due to be completed soon!



Had ordered these wheels and tyres two weeks ago, was hoping to have them fitted in time for the track day but quite glad I didn't as I completely trashed the old tyres I had on the 16s!

Scooby B

iTrader: (2)

I got that really annoying wobbling through the steering wheel around castle combe when the brakes were getting too hot. After a bit of cooling down, it went, but came back when the abuse started again.

Combination of brakes were, fresh 5.1 brake fluid, new Hel braided brake lines, new Godspeed discs, new Blue stuff pads, standard brembo calipers.

Guest

iTrader: (2)

If it happens with that set up then I guess it's nigh on unavoidable! I'll get the brakes the best I can and then just live with it in that case

Guest

iTrader: (2)

Got another track session coming up next week, it's just an evening session with the circuit member's club, so I'm hoping it'll give me a good chance at testing the new improvements! I bought loads of parts for the car straight after the last track day, but true to form they've been sat in a box in the garage and I've only got round to fitting everything a week before it's needed!



So after last time with the cutting out I did a bit of research, still loads of things that could be wrong but I made a couple of discoveries. Had an EML light come on intermittently a few days after the track, so I checked the fault codes which brought back a knock sensor fault. If the ECU was cutting/retarding ignition due to detecting knock when I was giving it stick that would make sense. Especially as I was using 95 RON petrol. Have now been running the scoob on Tesco 99 and not had a fault light on, although the knock sensor fault code was still saved. Replaced the knock sensor with a new one and it's all clear now, so that's something else fixed, I hope.

Other bits I've done are replacing all the hoses under the bonnet, I've now got blue silicone boost hoses and coolant hoses with fresh coolant, after seeing a few people retire last time with split hoses of some description I thought I'd catch that before it happens.

Also ordered a full set of Godspeed kevlar pads, hopefully they'll be a bit better than standard ****e, i know I wanted EBC Bluestuff or similar ideally but it is still my every day car and it's a lot of money, I could buy something like 3 sets of the Godspeed pads for one of the EBC! Have fitted those along with later WRX 2 pot rear calipers, grooved discs, Goodridge braided brake lines and completely flushed the braking system with Halfords High Performance DOT 5.1 fluid. Can't wait to see how it goes now!

Only thing I'm slightly worried about is how my nearly new Toyo Proxes T1rs are going to wear, at £280 for a set of four it'll be a PITA if they get trashed after one outing! I know they've got notoriously soft shoulders, so can anyone else offer any suggestions for some cheap ideas for track tyres?

JohnD

iTrader: (5)

Can't believe you did a track day using 95 octane fuel!
If you trash a set of Toyos in an evening trackday, you're doing something wrong? You should be ok with the tyres although obviously you must budget for replacements a bit more frequently. Run the pressures 10% higher.

JohnD

Gigsy

BF Goodrich gForce Profilers.... Much better than T1Rs on road and on the track. Wear rate is pretty good even on track.

Lord Marshall

Guy's sorry to sound dumb but i'm still a noob,why change oil before and after a trackday? surely fast road drivers don't change oil everytime they go for a long blast,even though i know the two are different.that's too much for me i think especially with £20.00 hks oil filters and £55.00 silkolene oil changed 3 times just for a days driving at track

Paullen

iTrader: (2)

Personally I like to change the oil after a trackday, the hight temps etc cause the oil to degrade more quickly than road driving. Take a look at the colour of your oil after the track day. If its costing too much, use some cheaper (not cheap) oil. I'd rather have cheaper clean oil, than dirty, poor performing expensive stuff.

As for tyres, part worns for fun, R888/A048 for ultimate grip (at a price). I've got some part worn track tyres for Japfest etc where I want to be as fast as possible and some under the limit tyres to destroying on airfield days.

The best thing you can do to make you faster is get some tuition on an airfield day, you can push it with little fear of damage and you'll learn HEAPS from an instructor!

JohnD

iTrader: (5)

It used to be the thing to change oil before and after a trackday but with good quality full-synthetic oils there should be no need unless it's done a fair mileage already. many race teams do 2 or 3 races between changes and a full-syn at 120c is quite happy. Everyday driving at low speeds will contaminate the oil far more than a trackday where the oil is going to run at a temp. where water and acids will evaporate.

JohnD

IainMilford

iTrader: (15)

sounds like you're going along the right lines with the brakes, I'd still be tempted to put different pads on like ds2500, they are a good all rounder and you'll be suprised how long they last, even with a few track days

Regarding oil, as long as the oil is a decent brand and 10/50 type level, and is fairly fresh you will be ok, have you got an oil temp gauge?

DonNedly

iTrader: (10)

Getting some proper track tyres made the biggest difference to my track day experiences. Incredible how much more grip some moulded slicks offer and you can thrash it about without worrying about wearing them out.

Like Iain says, you defo want some gauges to keep an eye on things.