MorayMackenzie

Dave,

I suspect she was late for her own accident!
(the pusher in, that is, not our Penni! )


Penni,

I second John on the slow = safe issue. Every driver has different abilities, so what is a safe speed (all conditions permitting) for one driver may well be well past another less able driver's ten-tenths.

You appear to be swallowing the government's "Speed Kills" propoganda.

Seeing other peoples accidents does make you think about how you drive though, doesn't it.

Moray

ColinU

Seems to be that old thread running here: "it's going to be someone elses fault, not mine, that ends up wiping me out"

A lesson I took from Saturday's talk given to the SIDC by the Strathclyde Police was:

<B>ANTICIPATE (and forgive) the limitations of others as well as understand your own. </B>

At least that way you're improving your chances of not getting caught up in a mess to start with.

[This message has been edited by ColinU (edited 08-12-1999).]

JasonHook

Once upon a time I was a member & observer of the Institute of Advanced Motorists. Without wishing to plug that organisation (I don't particularly) I thought it might be worth recommending ROADCRAFT to casual readers of this thread.

Roadcraft is the Police Drivers Handbook and offers excellent chapters on observation, 'becoming a better driver' and 'speed and safety'.

I got enormous benefit from receiving input from an 'Advanced' driving group and this handbook.

Just thought I'd chip in with my two pennies.

johnfelstead

i agree with colin on the anticipate issue, that comes mainly from experience.
Unfortunately we live in a world were it is impossible to anticipate every eventuality.

I also agree with the police wishing to name incidents as a crash and not an accident, there is always someone or something to blame.

One of the big problems with modern driving is that we are totally insulated from our environment and the traffic we now sit in is mind nummingly boring, this reduces our levels of concentration. I went for a run in my 2WD cossie 350BHP last night after 2 weeks of not driving it and was amazed how my concentration level had dropped after driving my impreza for 2 weeks. My cossie is far more involving and has much better feedback, it took me a good 15 minutes to feel back in sync with the car.

Penni Whitehead

This morning I saw something I hope I never see again. Drift Road near Maidenhead - not much left of a BMW - and it's not the place you'd expect that kind of accident. The driver was still behind the wheel and covered over.

When I think how I drive along there some days - I suppose what I want to say guys - is slow down and stay safe!

P

GaryC

Penni - share your sentiments, but what's 'Drift road'????

Southern expression?

johnfelstead

penni, please dont confuse speed with safe.

how slow is slow?

its a risk you take every time you step in a car.
Lifes a lotery and its probable that some moron will take you out rather than you doing it to yourself. This is especialy so for drivers who are enthusiast's who respect their cars and seak to learn their own limitations.

mphnw11

I would also go along with the Roadcraft "rules" for driving. I am sure the majority of drivers in SIDC are enthusiasts, and people who attend the track days are there to learn how to handle the cars tremendous performance.

But in day to day driving quite often excess speeds lead to incidents which sometimes result in people dying. While many of us are good drivers, as John rightly points out it's usually the other person who will cause the incident - but if we were observing properly and driving according to the conditions, we should be able to stop in the vast majority of cases.

I am not an anti speed driver, I just see people driving every day in and around London going way too fast - I guess the question is how fast is fast - and that depends on the unique conditions.

I for one slowed a lot after Dick Grimes course, I also speeded up, all down to using it when appropriate

Diablo

I may be wrong here, but I suspect the gist of Pennis post was basically to take care out there.

Nasty (& fatal) accidents can happen to the best of us, at any speed, and at no fault of our own.

Be safe.

D.

DavidRB

I agree, it's not the speed that causes the accident, it's the excessive or inappropriate use of speed and this often follows on from poor observation & anticipation. As johnfelstead points out, there is a roadsign warning of the junction, so you should automatically anticipate a car pulling out and adjust your speed (& position on the road) accordingly.

My pet speeding peeve? Those drivers who dawdle down 60mph country lanes at 45 and then continue blindly at the same speed through 30mph villages.

If "speed kills" then they'd be as likely to cause an accident in a 30 zone as a 60 zone. Clearly it's driving at the appropriate speed that counts.

MorayMackenzie

DavidRB,

As you say, it's all observation and anticipation, maybe you failed to observe that Dave Hutton told us about the bend and the sign!
I agree about the 40/40/40 drivers, I just hadn't realised they were now pushing for the 45/45/45 approach!


johnfelstead,

I like your point about the 350bhp cossy waking you up after driving your non-turbo 2.0 litre Impreza Sport (or am I wrong?) for a while. I felt the same about my car when I got it back after a three week absence in which I had a zetec mondeo to play with.

Moray

johnfelstead

you're right on the cars moray.

i really woke up when i got wheelspin, uphill on black ice at 80MPH on the woodhead to holmfirth road.

If any of you know this road you'll understand why.

Showtime

Anyone who has been in a serious car accident, as I have, (and I was the'victim') will understand just what Penni means, when you get cut out of a car that was your pride and joy, you realise then how precious life is, and how quickly it could be taken away (as this morning's accident proved). A car like most of us drive is valuable, but not as valuable as a life...Merry Christmas, at least you'll be seeing it...sobering thoughts indeed

RoShamBo

iTrader: (1)

Showtime

Know what u mean.
My parents (not even me) were in a near fatal & it slowed me down to this day (& this was 10 years ago !)
Getting a call at 2.30am from a Hospital to say "car accident.....parents involved....come immediately" and then next morning walking past your dads bed cos you didn't recognise him with all the tubes sticking out - not nice.
He is in a wheelchair today because of the accident - someone pulled out on him with no warning (or lights) at night on a straight bit of road - & the culprit got a broken arm - NO JUSTICE IN THIS WORLD.
Be safe - you DONT KNOW WHATS ROUND THE NEXT CORNER !!

Preacher Mode Off...

Ro

Penni Whitehead

I was pretty shaken up this morning, I don't make a habit at any time of looking at accidents, going back to Dave's comments about the bimbo - all the good samaritans who had stopped to help were parked all over the place - one red Rover I think- stuck right in front of the BMW in the left hand lane and no attempt to move the car onto the shoulder or off the road - this leaving you no choice but to inch past the accident and you had to look because the gap was small.

I'm still shaken - and no I haven't fallen for the ploy - I have always been an advocate of driving slow does not necessarily mean safe - and maybe some other idiot will take me out some time - but things happen so fast and despite how capable we think we are (or know we are) it only takes a split second, poor judgement - look down at the speedo /radio - anything - and bang - that's it - game over.

Drive with care is what I'm saying because this time of year (we were out last night) the nutters - and people can still be over the limit at 8:00 am from the night before.

That's all I wanted to say
P

Dave - it's got quieter - honest!!!

Mike F

Murphy's (sod's) Law states:

IF IT CAN HAPPEN IT WILL !!

The Anticipation thing is spot on if used with the above law of chaos.
Therefore anticipate that everything WILL happen and so you will be prepared to take appropriate action if it does!!

;-)) Mike f.

Shark

I always remember the day I passed my driving test xx years ago.....

My Dads best friend said these simple words to me that have always stuck in my mind -

Don't drive where you can't see.

Take care

Dave

Penni Whitehead

Diablo !
The 'apostrophy' is a wonderful gramatical tool - saves alot of embarassment.
Thanks
YFOW!!!!
Before everyone else sees it - please thanks!


[This message has been edited by Penni Whitehead (edited 08-12-1999).]

[This message has been edited by Penni Whitehead (edited 09-12-1999).]

Mike F

Penni......Too late seen it!


OOOOOO EEERRRRRR MATRON!

TITTER YEE NOT!!

Showtime

WHOOPS..not got a brother called 'Dennis' have you ?

Kev

I tend to keep my speed "down" after having a front blow-out at about 80mph with the wife 'n' kids thankfully we were on an empty M40 early in the morning, but after what I guess was a couple of 360's, missing the reservation barriers etc but ending up in lane two facing the wrong way.

It happened so flippin quick as well....with no chance of catching it, we were just passengers......

And boy oh boy oh boy did I take some real flack from the wife !! not to metion the "in-law's" aaahhhhhhhhhh.....Turned out to be a faulty tyre ( new Toyo I had fitted the week before ) and the dealer agreed to pay for the damaged wing as well....but not the valeting & laundry bill !!!

Paul Frank

John

I agree - not a road to lose any kind of grip on . . . maybe we should take people over it during the next Northern meet?

Paul

johnfelstead

definitely worth a run, plus the road that goes the back way to glossop from woodhead pass, some mega corners.

i went down that the other day to find a young lad with his car in a field off one of the blind corners. the usual teenage problem of not judging a tricky corner properly due to lack of experience.

luckily he got away with just a damaged car and pride.

Yex

I live in a small village which is approached from two directions by 'b' class roads. I frequently see (usually on a Saturday or Sunday morning) cars in pieces or evidence of "incidents".
On a few occassions the roads have been closed to traffic for wrecks to removed after the occupants have been killed, not a pleasant sight. This serves as a reminder to me to be very aware of the potential dangers of driving at all times.
The road is a well known blackspot (Dick Grimes know's it very well from his day job) but the local youngsters still speed along it regardless. I'm glad I had a few near misses when first driving as they seem to have served me well since then

Yex

Lou

Strictly speaking it is not absolute speed that kills but acceleration/deceleration forces. Our organs are very delicate and not held in very firmly. Our brains have the consistencey of thick porridge. Take a ball of porridge, put it in a biscuit tin and give it a shake. When you take a look at, mix in some tomato sauce and then you've some idea of what a brain looks like after significant head injury at 50mph. Acceleration/deceleration is proportional to velocity.

Road skills are important but event he most competant of us lose concentration. Can you recall the incident when a police fast response driver ploughed into the side of 17 year olds fiesta and killed him.

Penni, I am sure what you saw was very unpleasant and your message is correct. I am dealing with the victims of car crashes every week. No serious injury was ever caused by going too slow!

MorayMackenzie

Lou,

You imply the police "fast response driver" who, (at allegedly well over 60mph), chose to jump a red light and consequntly kill the 17 year old was among "the most competant of us". B*ll*cks. A truely competant, responsible and level-headed Class One police driver would not have done that.

Unfortunatly for everyone, it isn't only the properly trained class one traffic cops who are "allowed" to break traffic laws these days. Allowing less able police drivers to break the traffic laws is always going to increase the incidence of accidents involving police drivers.

The assumption that because someone is driving a stripey car with blue lights on means that they are more competant drivers than everyone else is simply wrong.

Rant over. Sorry guys.

Moray

Lou

Moray

my implication was that it doesn't matter how much training we have had or how good driver we think we are, we all have it in us to be crap drivers.

My main thrust was to counter your assertion regarding "government propaganda". Unfortunately it happens to be fact (despite it being from the mouths of politicians). It IS excess speed that kills people in RTA's.

MorayMackenzie

Yes, medically speaking, the greater decelleration forces and energy dissapation from a higher speed impact will do more damage. So in this sense, the government message may be seen as right.

I suppose that by the same logic, "speed kills" gunshot victims to, the projectiles speed.

The governement are, however, claiming/implying that RTAs are mostly caused by speeding motorists. This is not a fact. The intelligent figures show that it is a very small proportion of accidents that are caused purely by speeding.

It all comes back to excessive speed for the prevailing conditions. 30mph on a tight built up road in town is excessive but legal, 80mph on an empty motorway in good weather conditions is not excessive, but is illegal.

Moray